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Howdy folks,

I'm currently working on a list for my Chaos Space Marines. I'm trying to build a solid all comers list for a casual setting of 40k, and I'm running into a lot of trouble.

EDIT:
Here's the list so far:

HQ - 230
Typhus - 230

TROOPS - 550
5x Plague Marines, 2x PG - 150
5x Plague Marines, 2x PG - 150
5x Plague Marines, 2x PG - 150
10x Plague Zombies - 50
10x Plague Zombies - 50

ELITES
N/A

FAST - 170
Heldrake, Baleflamer - 170

HEAVY - 350
Forgefiend - 175
Forgefiend - 175

Total is 1300 so far. I'm aiming for 1500.

I want to field the forgefiends and heldrake in this list. They're not the best, but I just love how they look and play. Any options that involve switching them out is a non-option to me.

Where I need help is on what I can do with 930 points to fill out the rest of the army. I like troops spam (I'm a guard player at heart), and I like how PMs are truly all comers. I figure LCs are worth it on them, despite I3, but if anyone has any other suggestions, I'm open to them (both in terms of troops choices and melee weapon of choice, including no special melee weapon).

The Chaos Lord is not upgraded; he's just bare minimum points. I love the Warpsmith model and rules, but I do need the lord to unlock PMs. If there's no other optimal troops choices, I'm likely going to use the model to represent my lord in Terminator armor /w Power Axe (I will obviously use a bigger base). Either way, I'd "like" a decent CC warlord, but am okay with just taking a bare necessities warlord.

Squads of 3 Terminators /w Combi-Meltas and Power Axes run just 8 points less than Raptors with 2x Meltagun and 1x Combi-Melta. I'm thinking of taking one or two suicide terminator squads to drop and kill whatever AV 14 is on the field (as you noticed, I have nothing to counter that). Which brings me to my next question; what else could I field to take out AV 14? Meltas on my PMs are a bit too slow/close ranged for me, but it would allow them to charge into CC... Hmm.

Help me out here, and I'll give you an internet cookie.

I'd say get some Autocannon Havocs, an Aegis with a Quad Gun, and then tool out your Lord.

What you want in a list is all dependent on how you want to fight on the board. If you want a gun-line type army, then you would outfit your army with ranged predominate forces, with some CC units to support your guys. Your list does have a lot of shooty, and that Heldrake w/ baleflamer is very good(i had a whole squad of devastators get scorched by one in a single turn); what you might want are 1 or 2 CC specialists to support your ranged guys, which could be raptors or warp talons and you probably are not getting bezerkers(looks like a nurgle list). In the worst case senario that your opponent has a lot of flyers, maybe some havocs w/ autocannons or ML w/ flakks on an ADL could be very helpful.

I don't feel that flyers will be that much of an issue; my Heldrake can kill flyers by vectoring, and the Forgefiend's rate of fire often leads to a few S8 hits in there.

Still, I did consider a CC unit, maybe Terminators to accompany my lord. Still working it out; headaches all around! I've been doing this for the past week!

If you are happy enough with your AA abilities already, get the Lord on a Bike and soup him up, and then get him a unit of Nurgle Spawn to ride with. Any points you have left should be used to flesh out your Troop section a little bit more.

Well, first you need to decide what kind of Lord you want, a lumbering or fast one.
Among a group of Termies, he may never reach cc. But as pointed out by GM, a Lord on a bike with some ablative wounds around (Bikers or Spawns) can bring him to his target ASAP.

Any value in a Warpsmith to put hull points back on the forgefiends? All those 'gets hot' rolls could add up...

 rubicant99 wrote:
Any value in a Warpsmith to put hull points back on the forgefiends? All those 'gets hot' rolls could add up...

However, the Forgefiend could lose all hull points in a single turn of shooting. Hello Doom Scythes!

How about filling up the troops a little?
Seven (the holy number) Plague Marines in each squad is nice.

And I would recomend you to go power axes or fists on the champions instead of a claw.
The axe gets one extra attack with the pistol, +1 str, costs less and you will most likly hit last anyway. Fist hits harder but you lose an attack and it costs more.

The lord needs some gear. I would recomend a bike, invo save and some nice weapon for him. Maybe a fist and a claw.
Add a delivery unit to him. Either Spawns of nurgle or bikes of nurgle depending on how much points you have left.

I came up with a new list last night. I'm much more satisfied with this one, but I still need a bit of input:

Total: 1400

HQ
Typhus - 230

TROOPS
Plague Marines, Plasma Guns - 150
Plague Marines, Plasma Guns - 150
Plague Marines, Plasma Guns - 150
Zombies - 50
Zombies - 50

FAST ATTACK
Heldrake - 170

HEAVY SUPPORT
Forgefiend, Ectoplasma - 200
Maulerfiend - 125
Maulerfiend - 125

Total is 1400. As people pointed out, a warlord on foot is rather slow, so Typhus might not be the best idea; on the other hand, I get fearless objective holders; even if they're made of paper, the enemy needs to devote some time to kill them, and they only cost 50 points.

Chaos Lord on bike is definitely a consideration. I'd rather find alternatives to the Maulerfiends though, if someone could help me there.

your lists lack AT. so much anti infatnry(and heavy infantry at that) but few ways to open rhinos and no way to deal with a landraider.

I'd suggest dropping one of the maulerfiends for a unit of 5 havocs with 4 autocannons. Having 8 S7 shots for 115 points is really nice.

I'd also suggest a Nurgled up Obliterator could be a good anti-AV, but you only have the points for one and as your only anti-AV, he will be a big target for your opponents.

See, I think maulerfiends will prove quite effective for taking out av14, esp with siege crawler letting you close the gap quicker than a usual walker, and the magma cutters too could prove nasty. Playtesting will obviously tell though.

After seeing Shadelkhan Forgefiend strip out 3 hulls point of landraider the other day, I'd say his AT power isn't that inexistant.

Lucky shots! But yea, torrent of fire usually doesn't fail. I figure Maulerfiends could the job, but Oblits were another thought.

Still working on it. A friend of mine suggested transports for my Plague Marines, which made me consider Meltas instead of PGs. They could ride with the Maulerfiend to take out AV 14, and hopefully kill heavy infantry.

 Shadelkan wrote:
I don't feel that flyers will be that much of an issue; my Heldrake can kill flyers by vectoring, and the Forgefiend's rate of fire often leads to a few S8 hits in there.

Still, I did consider a CC unit, maybe Terminators to accompany my lord. Still working it out; headaches all around! I've been doing this for the past week!

Your heldrake will struggle with AV12 (so Valkyries, stormravens & other heldrakes). Your vector strike hits at S7 on their side armour (AV12), so you're only glancing on 5s. Plus you might only roll 2 attacks. I think the Heldrake, despite being billed as anti flyer & seeming to be munching valkyries in all its artwork is actually not suited to anti-flyer work at all.

All ground-to-air attacks are S7; hydra flak tank, quad cannon, even flak missiles. Speaking of flak missiles, the other option for chaos is a squad of havocs which 4 MLs with Flak, which is... 175 points. So basically, the cost of a Heldrake with Hades Autocannon, which the same chance to pen (except the hades autocannon is S8, BS3).

Yea no, I don't buy this whole "it's not good enough" thing. It is good enough, its just not spectacular like the Storm Raven or Night Scythe. Also, I might roll 4 hits; the average is 3 hits, which is rather good when you consider the average hits a Hydra Flak Tank causes is 3 hits as well. Combined with the torrent of fire from the Forgefiends, and I have adequate Anti-Flyer. What I lack is anti-AV 14 unfortunately.

Not having a single weapon that shoots over 24" is a problem.

I'd get Huron (In addition to the naked lord obviously) to infiltrate your Plague Marines up field so they can use their rapid fire weapons more effectively. Walking them all the way up the field just dont seem very efficient to me.

To replace Maulerfiends, take two Predators. (Tri-LC or AC/LC) would help you in the long range department.

FFs fire at 36", but Predators do seem like a good idea.

The trouble is you're gonna bring 1 flyer that is best suitable at killing foot sloggers, and try to kill flyers with it?

Seems like a waste to me.

Also worth noting it's my opinion attrition is key to 40k this includes not sending a 1of answer to stuff out.

If running a Heldrake I'd strongly recomend a second

 Shadelkan wrote:
FFs fire at 36", but Predators do seem like a good idea.

Oh, my mistake, thought you have 3 Ectoplasms on it.
Still I think infiltration is good for CSM of all colors.

1 flyer at 1500 is not bad, most armies wouldnt have much more than a Quad Gun.

 Shadelkan wrote:
All ground-to-air attacks are S7; hydra flak tank, quad cannon, even flak missiles. Speaking of flak missiles, the other option for chaos is a squad of havocs which 4 MLs with Flak, which is... 175 points. So basically, the cost of a Heldrake with Hades Autocannon, which the same chance to pen (except the hades autocannon is S8, BS3).

Yea no, I don't buy this whole "it's not good enough" thing. It is good enough, its just not spectacular like the Storm Raven or Night Scythe. Also, I might roll 4 hits; the average is 3 hits, which is rather good when you consider the average hits a Hydra Flak Tank causes is 3 hits as well. Combined with the torrent of fire from the Forgefiends, and I have adequate Anti-Flyer. What I lack is anti-AV 14 unfortunately.

I'm not saying 'Its not good enough', I think its a decent unit, I just think it's more suited to dealing with backfield lurkers like lootas & long fangs with its flamer than it is other flyers with its vector strike. I envisaged flying over & popping transports with the vector strike, but I suppose there'd be no reason not to do that on lightly armoured flyers like scythes, dakkajets & stormtalons, its mainly valkyries (which are very common) which I dont consider it a good counter to.

After a few games over this weekend, I've determined that 2x Forgefiends with Ectoplasm Cannons are just awful.

Of course, that's my opinion!

I would suggest 2x Baleflamer Helldrakes and use the extra points on troops

 Brometheus wrote:
After a few games over this weekend, I've determined that 2x Forgefiends with Ectoplasm Cannons are just awful.

Of course, that's my opinion!

I would suggest 2x Baleflamer Helldrakes and use the extra points on troops

well yes, 3 str8 plasma are not very good when they cost 200 points.

Well they were supposed to kill marines in the open but the BS3 was 100% the problem. If it was only 4, it would have dominated the game.

Rolled a lot of 1's, as well.

 Exergy wrote:

 Brometheus wrote:
After a few games over this weekend, I've determined that 2x Forgefiends with Ectoplasm Cannons are just awful.

Of course, that's my opinion!

I would suggest 2x Baleflamer Helldrakes and use the extra points on troops

well yes, 3 str8 plasma are not very good when they cost 200 points.

A LR Executioner shoots 3 S7 plasma at 12" more range for more or less the same cost. Though it is a more durable platform at AV14 front AV13 side and has a HB to go with it. Also wont get hot. Can take two more PCs but that push the cost up by a good amount.

Why is BS3 such a problem for blast weapon? You are scattering 1 more inch than BS4 (If you scatter at all, both have 1/3 chance of simply being on target), nowhere as significant as the impact it has on direct fire weapons.

The 24" range bother me more honestly, at the same range a Vindicator is probably more effective.

Yea, I opted out for Ectoplasma Forgefiends the moment I saw their range. Ectoplasma head for 25 points? Not TOO bad, good for those opportunity shots, and when you're throwing everything at a squad or light vehicle.

@somecallmejack, Remember that a Heldrake can Vector Strike one unit, then fire at another unit entirely. Often, it cant fire on what it vectored, so this is usually without a choice. A situation where there's a Razorback to pop along the way to killing a squad of Long Fangs happens quite often.

 Shadelkan wrote:
Yea, I opted out for Ectoplasma Forgefiends the moment I saw their range. Ectoplasma head for 25 points? Not TOO bad, good for those opportunity shots, and when you're throwing everything at a squad or light vehicle.

@somecallmejack, Remember that a Heldrake can Vector Strike one unit, then fire at another unit entirely. Often, it cant fire on what it vectored, so this is usually without a choice. A situation where there's a Razorback to pop along the way to killing a squad of Long Fangs happens quite often.

That's exactly what I mean. Pop a transport you happen to pass over on the way to reach those hard to get at longfangs.

 Brometheus wrote:
After a few games over this weekend, I've determined that 2x Forgefiends with Ectoplasm Cannons are just awful.

Of course, that's my opinion!

I would suggest 2x Baleflamer Helldrakes and use the extra points on troops

Why no Forgefiends? Do the ectoplasma cannons strip hullpoints?

If you roll a 1, and proceed to roll 1, 2, or 3, then fail you 5+ invul, then yes, you lose a hull point.

Honestly, those odds are 1/18, which is once every 3 games (give or take). What could make it more likely is taking three of the Ectos, but I would rather use Hades ACs anyway.