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Little cavecat first: I started in 3ed, and my fluff knowlege do not include the spesific of sensai theory, so I will ignore it for now.

I was wondering how mighty where the Man? Seeing we most likely will see rules for him by Forge World in a few years time I thought it would be an intresting topic. I have seen somebody claimed he is the equal to the 4 Chaos Gods combiend. I disagree.

In the Index Astrates we see him more than in any other puplication I have read.

I see him as nothing more than a Primiarch +1.

People skills: He has none. Zip zero. When he meets his sons, they ether get down on the kne or he get cranky. Angron wants to fight whit his comrades, and instead of ofring his help (and the help of Angrons "sons"), he abtuckte him and makes a enemy.
Mortarion gets challenge to kill the last vampire on his planet that they both know he can't, and Mortarion gets emo for the loss of his thunder. Another enemy.
He insults Russ and beats him with a power fist, a more selfserious Primarch (Dorn, Lion, Robute) would likely have hatet him for it.

When Logar is not quick enough in suduing world he reprimande him and makes another enemy. Nevermind that the planets Lorgar converted where the most loyale to the Emperor and unlike his brothers the did not rebel from time to time, only speed matter to the Emperor.

He ordred Perturbo (and other who refused), to splitt up his legion to keep better control over the planets that where subduded, making Perturabo even more bitter. Kind of stranger since that slows progress whitch he did not like in Logar.

Psyker: We are told he is an incredible psyker, but little evidens. He comunicate with Magnus long before he meets him, and he battles Horus in a duel that included psykic might. He has also acted as a lighthouse for 10000 years.

Strenght: He has alot. When he meets Vulkan and they duel, he lifts Vulkan to safty while Vulkan is holding on to the edge and holding a several tonn firedrake. Other than that it is not much I have read about his strenght.

Combat skill: I have read about 4 fights he has been in. He stands guard over a fallen Horus, fighting of enemy after enemy. He fight Russ where the Emperor has power fist and power armour and Russ has a sword and no armour. He almost gets killed by an ork and Horus rescued him.
And the big one: duel VS Daemonic infuced Horus. The Emperor had so far not fightet in the 55 day long siege of Terra, while Horus had killed Sangious and gotten his throte ripped out. The Emperor wins by an the smallest of margins.

I dont think I have forgotten anything, But since I am at work, and everyting is from memory some information can have slipped thought the cracks in my brain. I hope for some input on the pro/con on the powerlevel on the Man.

More powerful than you give him credit for.

Whoa.

Well uh, I would agree that the Emperor has almost nonexistent legitimate charisma, it is my theory that he passed this trait onto Lion El'Jonson. Normally, his raw psychic might is enough to inspire others with his presence alone, but that didn't work on his Primarchs, whom he handled rather badly.

He was very, very powerful. While physically not really above a Primarch, his psychic abilities are well-beyond even Magnus the Red's.

His "light" is what reaches across the length and breadth of the galaxy, and a powerful psyker in the 6e rulebook, the sum of his psychic power released in his death throes could only temporarily blot out a small area of the Astronomicon.

The Chaos Gods themselves fled from Horus's body for fear of being destroyed by his final attack (And the Emperor held back against Horus).

The Emperor, as said in Collected Visions and by either Erebus or Ingethel in the HH series (I forget which one), was psychically devastating the realms of Chaos.

He is a god in the Warp, in a practical sense.

He's an immensely powerful psycher but he's still a man.

One interesting question is whether the traditional image of the Emperor- a big golden guy, is his actual body or simply a psychic glamor. We've had hints in some of the heresy books (notably Legion and The First Heretic) that there may be more to him than the golden hero in armour presence.

I'm actually rather a fan of the idea it's all a glamor and he's a normal man under it all. It stands to reason that as another Perpetual like Ollinius Pius and John Grammaticus, he would be a normal human (excluding the immortality- a trait shared by the perpetuals, and his own psychic powers).

Or perhaps he used his technical knowledge or pyshic powers to alter himself into the figure we know.

As to the Emperor's 'power level', we know he's very powerful indeed.

He powered the Astronomicon singlehandedly before the Heresy. He is able to Soul-Bind the astropaths, shielding them from daemons. He sat on the Golden Throne, keeping the daemonic hordes at bay, a feat which killed Malcador, the second most powerful human psycher in hours. He made an entire legion kneel with just his voice at Monarchia. He can fix machines with a simple touch. He obliterated Horus' soul and defeated a Horus swelled with the power of the Dark Gods. He collapsed a warp containment field, opening an 'unreality' vortex, sending a planet into the warp.

He's obviously a genius level intellect, what with making the Primachs, the Astartes, the Imperial Webway, Unifying Terra, masterminding the Great Crusade.

He is not invincible however, he is not infallible. He is still ultimately a man.

The ork situation has been clarified in the new Heresy supplement from Forgeworld. It occurred in the bowels of a scrap planet- literally a planet sized object made from scrap metals, asteriods etc held together through advanced plasma and warp technology. These orks were ruled by an advanced technocaste of ork and had advanced plasma technology. Additionally the orks themselves were commonly larger than dreadnoughts. During the fighting the Emperor was separated from his Custodes and after slaying hundreds was caught off Guard by a plasma blast. In the second his guard was down an ork warboss (a warboss of these orks would be deadly indeed) seized the emperor and buckled his armour. Immediately however Horus was there, who cut the ork's arms off.

I would interpret the event as the plasma blast being the final crack in the Emperor's psychic shield (especially likely if we account for the glamour posited earlier and assume the Emperor can become tired etc).

1) Daemons call the Emperor the "Anathema", so obviously they view him as a significant threat.

2) He's the only thing keeping the Chaos Gods from breaking into our reality. You have to be damn powerful to do that.

3) Horus was impossibly powerful at the Siege of Terra. He was imbued with the full power of all four Chaos Gods and became the most powerful agent of Chaos in existence; he was an avatar of Chaos. And yet, despite all this, the Emperor was able to defeat him by himself. It's also said that when the Chaos Gods found out the Emperor killed Horus, they recoiled in fear of the Emperor. Not to mention the Emperor was holding back the entire fight because he still loved his favorite son.

4) He's directing the pyschic energy of the entire Astronomican; allowing for Warp travel across fifty thousand light years of the galaxy. That "lighthouse" is the one of the biggest things holding the Imperium together.

5) It's severely unlikely the Emperor had no people skills. How does someone with no people skills manage to unite the entire human race under one banner?

The Emperor is an incredibly powerful entity of godlike power. He is not only the most powerful psyker in existence but also one of the most powerful entities to ever exist. The Chaos Gods are threatened by his existence; they wouldn't fear him if he was only a "Primarch +1".

Warsmith Tharak wrote:

He ordred Perturbo (and other who refused), to splitt up his legion to keep better control over the planets that where subduded, making Perturabo even more bitter. Kind of stranger since that slows progress whitch he did not like in Logar.

You should maybe read the Index Astartes article again on the Iron Warriors, it's not necessarily the Emperor who ordered Perturabo to split his Legion.

Thanks dudes!

I have not read some of the things you mention (HH series and collected visions) and that the Emperor where holdig back in the fight agenst Horus(where is that from BTW),

That said, I do belive that the Emperor are the most powerful human ever, but that his power might be exaggerated.

I will probe your knowlege a little more:-)

In his duel with Horus, how is it writen that he was holding back? Is it in univers or narrator. I have read three or four subtil differet versons over the last 13 years or so but never that. I am wondering since in my head the Emperor looks a little like Sylvester Stallone at the end of his Rocky movies saying: "Yhea, I could totaly beat him up round 1, but choose to give you all a show". Horus was fighting without his throth(sp?), and still inflict massiv injuries on him. And he could not be invested with all of the gods power, since then it would be no daemons at the siege(daemons are small pices of the gods power afterall). Not saying that he would have beating him, only that the powerlevel where to close for the Emperor to go into the battle 50%.

He was "beaten" by a ork. An ork larger than a dreadnought but an ork no the less.

He can do more with his psykic power than what I had heard about.

After I posted the first post, I thought it could be reading almost like flame-bait, it was not the intent and I am very pleased that I got nice thoughtfull answers . This looks like a great communety, and I am glad to becoming a part of it.

The Emperor was NOT beaten by that ork. Horus was beaten by that ork.

Grey Templar wrote:The Emperor was NOT beaten by that ork. Horus was beaten by that ork.

Ummm...

rems01 wrote:The ork situation has been clarified in the new Heresy supplement from Forgeworld. It occurred in the bowels of a scrap planet- literally a planet sized object made from scrap metals, asteriods etc held together through advanced plasma and warp technology. These orks were ruled by an advanced technocaste of ork and had advanced plasma technology. Additionally the orks themselves were commonly larger than dreadnoughts. During the fighting the Emperor was separated from his Custodes and after slaying hundreds was caught off Guard by a plasma blast. In the second his guard was down an ork warboss (a warboss of these orks would be deadly indeed) seized the emperor and buckled his armour. Immediately however Horus was there, who cut the ork's arms off.

I would interpret the event as the plasma blast being the final crack in the Emperor's psychic shield (especially likely if we account for the glamour posited earlier and assume the Emperor can become tired etc).

Thanks for the updated info btw rems01.

Are we talking about the same ork?

I'm referring to Gharkul Blackfang.

Warsmith Tharak wrote:

I will probe your knowlege a little more:-)

In his duel with Horus, how is it writen that he was holding back? Is it in univers or narrator. I have read three or four subtil differet versons over the last 13 years or so but never that. I am wondering since in my head the Emperor looks a little like Sylvester Stallone at the end of his Rocky movies saying: "Yhea, I could totaly beat him up round 1, but choose to give you all a show". Horus was fighting without his throth(sp?), and still inflict massiv injuries on him. And he could not be invested with all of the gods power, since then it would be no daemons at the siege(daemons are small pices of the gods power afterall). Not saying that he would have beating him, only that the powerlevel where to close for the Emperor to go into the battle 50%.

As far as i understand the problem ( especialy at it is described in the old Emperor vs Horus story ), the Emperor wasn't holding back consciously.
He fought as hard as he could, was about to lose and only when he witnessed what his son had become, finaly found the strenght for one last, desperate attack.
Regarding Horus, like many chaoslords before and after him, he was invested with as many "blessings" from the gods as his mortal frame could sustain ( which was apparently not enough ).

The Emperor himself appears to be an ancient alpha/alpha+ psyker which would be relatively consistent with the psychic abilities he has shown so far.
There might be other psykers of comparable raw power ( the Cacodominus, perhaps the Burning Princess and other alpha+ psykers ) but few would have the carriongods age and experience.

Warsmith Tharak wrote:

Mortarion gets challenge to kill the last vampire on his planet that they both know he can't, and Mortarion gets emo for the loss of his thunder. Another enemy.

That wasn't really the Emperors fault though. Mortarion demanded that he try and then failed. He resented the fact that the Emperor had to save him because he wasn't strong enough.

He insults Russ and beats him with a power fist, a more selfserious Primarch (Dorn, Lion, Robute) would likely have hatet him for it.

A more self-serious Primarch wouldn't have challenged the Emperor to eating and drinking competitions. Not to mention Russ challenged the Emperor to the fight.

while Horus had killed Sangious and gotten his throte ripped out.

Where'd you read that Horus' throat was ripped out? I've never heard that before. All I've read was that Sanguinius managed to create a chink in Horus' armour, and the effect that had was never definitively stated.

He was "beaten" by a ork. An ork larger than a dreadnought but an ork no the less.

Did you not read what rems01 said? He was beaten by hundreds of Orks, not one. Add in the affect of a Waagh! field and the fact that the Ork might not have actually managed to kill the Emperor even with Horus being there (we've no idea if the Emperor would have recovered in time. Even if not, the Emperor can take a great deal more punishment than a normal man. Short of decapitation no wound is really likely to kill him).

In his duel with Horus, how is it writen that he was holding back? Is it in univers or narrator.

The Emperor realises it, and promptly summons the power required to defeat Horus. I'm pretty sure it's in the Bill King version.

Warsmith Tharak wrote:
I have seen somebody claimed he is the equal to the 4 Chaos Gods combined. I disagree.

If he dies and became Chaos God himself he will become more powerful than the 4 combined giving all the power he receive trough Mankind praying to him.

While he was alive he he was quite strong, he beat the C'Tan while Earth was in middle ages, together with 1.000 Custodes he destroyed the biggest Ork WARGHH that Imperium ever encountered ( for reference that WARGHHH alone trethened to overrun 3 Astartesd Legions ), he punched Russ in head and as a result he was unconscious for days, his psychic powers had no match even among the Eldar etc... The only reason why he was almost defeated by Horus is because he didn't want to fight his own son, as soon as he saw that he cannot save him he destroyed his soul in a blink of a eye while being half dead. And that was before Golden Throne...
After he was put on the Throne and Mankind start praying to him all their prayers actually made him stronger in Warp, just as praying to Chaos Gods made them more pwoerul than conventional felling feeding. It is said that Emepror created Warp storm to capture the fleet of Goge Vandire and thus enabling Sebastian Thor to free Imperium from taht lunatic. Now who knows, the only real proof of his power in Warp is Sister's of Battle act's of faith and Living Saints. What will happened after he dies nobody except GW knows, but regarding his strenght I think that even if it's more funny than realistic encyclopedia 1d4chan explaiend everythign in one sentence:

CAUTION, may hold vulgar language:

There's a discussion going on about the God-Emperor right now. One that describes prayer to be insignificant to emotion in terms of fueling the warp.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Warsmith Tharak wrote:
I have seen somebody claimed he is the equal to the 4 Chaos Gods combined. I disagree.

If he dies and became Chaos God himself he will become more powerful than the 4 combined giving all the power he receive trough Mankind praying to him.

While he was alive he he was quite strong, he beat the C'Tan while Earth was in middle ages, together with 1.000 Custodes he destroyed the biggest Ork WARGHH that Imperium ever encountered ( for reference that WARGHHH alone trethened to overrun 3 Astartesd Legions ), he punched Russ in head and as a result he was unconscious for days, his psychic powers had no match even among the Eldar etc... The only reason why he was almost defeated by Horus is because he didn't want to fight his own son, as soon as he saw that he cannot save him he destroyed his soul in a blink of a eye while being half dead. And that was before Golden Throne...
After he was put on the Throne and Mankind start praying to him all their prayers actually made him stronger in Warp, just as praying to Chaos Gods made them more pwoerul than conventional felling feeding. It is said that Emepror created Warp storm to capture the fleet of Goge Vandire and thus enabling Sebastian Thor to free Imperium from taht lunatic. Now who knows, the only real proof of his power in Warp is Sister's of Battle act's of faith and Living Saints. What will happened after he dies nobody except GW knows, but regarding his strenght I think that even if it's more funny than realistic encyclopedia 1d4chan explaiend everythign in one sentence:

CAUTION, may hold vulgar language:

Spoiler:

The Emperor is so powerful that he could DESTROY SUNS BY SNAPPING HIS FINGERS!!! The Chaos Gods are scared shitless of this guy, and hope that he dies so they can take over the universe. If the God Emperor were to arise again Chaos would be fethed.

Umm... He beat a c'tan shard (new fluff has the dragon as shards at that time), he was with 1000 custodes and 3 entire legions, he was the combined spirits of hundreds of shaman, so obv he had no psychic match, there is also no actual recording of the emperor being a god. he powers the astronomican, and MAY have influenced events.

And no where, does it say he could destroy suns. He holds closed a warp rift he is sitting on barely, if he was reborn again, it would just be another great crusade, again. but with more, better, threats



Von chogg

He's the God Emperor, and all that's important is that he's more powerful than you. I deem this thread heretical.



But seriously, pretty damn powerful. I've even heard theories that the Chaos Gods don't want his vegetative body to die, because if he does die, his soul will go into the Warp and kick their arses.

Guy was holding back against Horus while he was supercharged by the Gods of Chaos. Enough to easily dispatch anyone who has existed in the 40k materium.

Powerful enough that the Chaos Gods shied away from his psychic lance lest they be destroyed or irrevocably harmed.

Powerful enough that there was no pickle jar in the cosmos he could not open...even without a butterknife.

Significantly less powerful than everyone gives him credit for. Remember the story about Horus saving the Emperor's ass when the Emperor was getting strangled by an Ork Warboss? A puny WS5/I4/60pt Warboss? Maybe a WS6 Ork special character if you're feeling generous.

Seriously, every single piece of canon information on virtually everybody is drastically inflated propaganda provided by that side. The Imperial Guard is endless and unstoppable because we're listening to the Guard's recruitment videos, not because they are. Space Marines are peerless warriors who can individually take on any fighting force in the galaxy and win because that's what the official dogma they recite says, not because it's true. Everything we know about the Emperor comes from stuff written from a human perspective by people who worship Him as a deity, they're going to write about how He's invincible and all-powerful regardless of the truth.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Significantly less powerful than everyone gives him credit for. Remember the story about Horus saving the Emperor's ass when the Emperor was getting strangled by an Ork Warboss? A puny WS5/I4/60pt Warboss? Maybe a WS6 Ork special character if you're feeling generous.

I'm really curious as to exact source of this story. The source I've seen on Blackfang has never mentioned this. Keep in mind there's a fan-fic profile on Blackfang being passed around as canon.

And stats aren't translatable onto tabletop. An Ork Warboss doesn't have "stats" in the story. Especially since in fluff, the more successful a Warboss the larger and more powerful they become to the point where guys like Ghazghkull are pretty much monstrously powerful.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Significantly less powerful than everyone gives him credit for. Remember the story about Horus saving the Emperor's ass when the Emperor was getting strangled by an Ork Warboss? A puny WS5/I4/60pt Warboss? Maybe a WS6 Ork special character if you're feeling generous.

My understanding was that the warboss beat down the Emperor, Horus came in and saved him and that was that. Yes it seems rather unimpressive but you have to remember these are orks that have gone unchecked for thousands of years, their Waaaargh's would have made Armageddon look like two wussy kids having a slap fight.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Seriously, every single piece of canon information on virtually everybody is drastically inflated propaganda provided by that side. The Imperial Guard is endless and unstoppable because we're listening to the Guard's recruitment videos, not because they are. Space Marines are peerless warriors who can individually take on any fighting force in the galaxy and win because that's what the official dogma they recite says, not because it's true. Everything we know about the Emperor comes from stuff written from a human perspective by people who worship Him as a deity, they're going to write about how He's invincible and all-powerful regardless of the truth.

John Grammaticus, he wasn't an imperial (and this was before the Emperor was worshiped anyway) so his perspective wouldn't be tainted. He was an accomplished psyker but before the Emperor he felt like a candle next to a sun.

The Ork that tried to choke the Emperor was the Warboss of a band with Boyz the size of Dreadnoughts.

The answer is no Anomander Rake.

re: Emperor vs Horus

The Emperor was holding back the whole fight, once he realised Horus was lost to him forever he smote him with but a thought, destroying him body and soul. The Chaos gods supposedly recoiled in fear of such power.

To be fair though, Horus himself allegedly hesitated when he could have struck the final blow against the Emperor.

That final attack was the Emperor's full, unbridled might. While the Emperor was stronger than Horus, it wasn't by as signifigant a degree as you might think.

Also, no, the Emperor has never destroyed a planet, much less a sun. I have no doubt he could tear apart the surface of a planet as Magnus the Red has, but the difference between doing that and blowing one up is signifigant.

His real power lay in the Warp, his power over the mind and the soul is unmatched.

He may deny being a god, everyone would deny him being a god, but with the power he can bring to bear, he might as well be one. Hell, I have no doubt he can kill gods either.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
He may deny being a god, everyone would deny him being a god, but with the power he can bring to bear, he might as well be one. Hell, I have no doubt he can kill gods either.

Agreed

Oh Emperor do I agree

 Melissia wrote:
Powerful enough that the Chaos Gods shied away from his psychic lance lest they be destroyed or irrevocably harmed.

They merely retreat from their pawn, just as they always do when one of their champions fails. At least the William King story mentions nowhere that the chaos gods were in any danger.
As i said before, the carriongod is/was an alpha+ psyker. Very old, very experienced and very powerful but there were and there are others who can, at least partialy, match his shown feats of psychic might.

 jonolikespie wrote:
John Grammaticus, he wasn't an imperial (and this was before the Emperor was worshiped anyway) so his perspective wouldn't be tainted. He was an accomplished psyker but before the Emperor he felt like a candle next to a sun.

That tells us that the Emperor was powerful. It doesn't tell us how powerful he was in relation to the psykers of today. Does the story give us any remarks on Grammaticus' feelings on meeting Eldrad?

His physical and psychic might were probably unmatched but he's non the less a rather pathetic figure with very little, if any at all, character.

Honestly, who puts the fate of the ENTIRE human race at stake because they're overly attached to a wayward punk who was quite obvious beyond the point of salvation. (Either that or he was so arrogant he thought he could talk Horus out of it)

Either one shows he didn't have the strength of character to match his god powers. The Imperium has much more inspiriting figures who achieved much more relative to their limited capacities.

I see the Emperor more as a person to be pitied, someone who was born with greatness but couldn't live up to the amazing gift he was besotted with because his willpower didn't equate to his powers.

So Grimdark!