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People are always raging about LF's, and don't get me wrong they're a powerful unit with a cheap cost. 190 for five with ML'S AND a razorback with TL Lascannon is pretty nice.

But any decent player will try and murder them first, especially if they plan on getting in a shooting match with you. If you are going second you usually have to hide them, to try and pop up with snap shots in your first turn and normal shots after. Any decent player will then use his second turn to murder your LF's, as much as is possible and dependent on anything more pressing.

How are other people keeping their LF's safe? If I do go second I usually hide them somewhere, hoping to pop up later. Do people just dump them in the razors, and then only get the LF's out once their transports are destroyed, so as to avoid snap shots after disembarkation? At the moment I'm just seeing them get wiped out if I go second basically. I think sometimes I try and jump the gun by exposing them for crappy snap shots in turn 2, when maybe I should just hide them until something looms in their path?

I love the unit but they are a complete bullet magnet, which is good for your other pissed up bearded hooligans I guess :p.

I run 3 squads of them, as well as a 4 man TWC unit with an IC.
Toss 3 Rune Priests with the Long Fangs.
Try and get them into some cover.

Going first is great, however Depending on placement/ If my opponent moves up those TWC are a threat. 12" deploy, 12" move 2-12" assault.

Opponent has to decide what needs to die pronto.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I run 3 squads of them, as well as a 4 man TWC unit with an IC.
Toss 3 Rune Priests with the Long Fangs.
Try and get them into some cover.

Going first is great, however Depending on placement/ If my opponent moves up those TWC are a threat. 12" deploy, 12" move 2-12" assault.

Opponent has to decide what needs to die pronto.

Problem is we're talking 300pts for the RP's, 345 for the LF's, and then I'm guessing a 200 plus wolf lord and at 150 on the TWC's before considering storm shield and weapons etc. More than half your points in most games, though you may play higher valuest than me, we're usually at 1500-2000. I see the principle though, put them with other things that are also very threatening...

Longs fangs are very cheap and very good.

I usualy loose one unit turn one, but I can live with that. The other one usualy lives very long.

(Edit: I use two rocketlauncher units usualy. I find 3 to be a bit dull, and it usualy draws a lott of cheesyness.)

 Niiai wrote:
Longs fangs are very cheap and very good.

I usualy loose one unit turn one, but I can live with that. The other one usualy lives very long.

(Edit: I use two rocketlauncher units usualy. I find 3 to be a bit dull, and it usualy draws a lott of cheesyness.)

I'm just going for 2 squads with 4 ML's each. I think part of it is that I always play the same three guys, and they've been traumatized so many times by them they always go for them first.

Maybe I should start cramming in three squads (urghh...) and drop my precious 'Flava Flav' Dreadnought.

Most of the time you'll see people spamming them to avoid this problem. 3 squads is generally the minimum in 1500+ games.

The weakness can be mitigated by deploying them in cover. It's a great way to keep them alive a little bit longer.

Well, if you can deploy them in cover, they should do fine, or it will help to decrease the number of casualties.
A big threat for them are Helldrakes with baleflamer each of which will eventually wipe out one unit in one go.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, if you can deploy them in cover, they should do fine, or it will help to decrease the number of casualties.
A big threat for them are Helldrakes with baleflamer each of which will eventually wipe out one unit in one go.

if you are really that worried you can take a wolfguard in termiator armor and make sure he is the closest model to the flamer.

The only threat to them on turn 1 is barrage sniping, ymarl genestealers, jetbikes/landspeeders, flamers of tzeench, turn 1 deep striking special weapons squads and sniper GK assasins...

That's a pretty damn limited list of things....now if you for some reason leave them in the open....yeah don't do that.

 sfshilo wrote:
The only threat to them on turn 1 is barrage sniping, ymarl genestealers, jetbikes/landspeeders, flamers of tzeench, turn 1 deep striking special weapons squads and sniper GK assasins...

That's a pretty damn limited list of things....now if you for some reason leave them in the open....yeah don't do that.

why do you need snipers? any anti infantry weapon that has range can kill them. I routinely wipe them off the board with venoms.

Venoms op just sayin
With these games there is a lot of night fighting. just make sure you have ruins in your deployment zone and pop them in there. then you have a 2-3+ cover save. with a wg in tda he can soak up a lot of fire.

I'm toying with the idea of a Long Fangs death star of sorts.

Rather than spending lots of points on missiles and rune priests, consolidate them into one extremely difficult unit to crack which also hits harder.... here's what I'm thinking:

Long Fangs: 5x Lascannons (& Pack Leader)
Wolf Guard Pack Leader TDA - Plain loadout
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Runic Armor, Saga of the Hunter, 2x Fenrisian Wolves
Rune Priest - Runic Armor
Aegis Defense Line w/ Icarus Lascannon

The whole thing works out to 573 points.

The idea here is quality over quantity. My missile fangs usually get torn to shreds as described previously in this post. Here are the advantages I see to running the "Long Fangs Death Star":

1) Quality of saves - having a 3+ cover save is invaluable. This will essentially negate low AP weapons and force opponents to kill this unit via weight of fire. There isn't much in the way that ignores cover... there especially isn't much that ignores cover AND is AP2... which leads to my next point, the amount of 2+ saves in the unit. There is enough 2+ to withstand weight of fire and keep your Lascannon fangs standing long enough to do damage.

2) Wound mitigation - Think about how much effort an opponent will have to go to in order to kill 2 10 point Fenrisian Wolves with a 3+ cover save. Basically, you're forcing opponents into a situation where they have to decide if the initial wasted firepower is worth the effort or if they'll ignore the unit and let it unleash hell.

3) Quality of fire - 6 lascannons, including one with interceptor and skyfire (and potentially BS5 if the WGBL mans it) is much scarier than 10 missile launchers. While the missile launchers are handy against orks and other various situations, those lascannons threaten heavy tanks as well as elite multiwound infantry... both things that missiles really struggle with. To add even more fun to the party, you've got a Rune Priest who can get re-rolling to hit by default and approximately a 1/3 chance of landing the psychic power that lets you ignore cover... imagine 6 lascannons ignoring cover? That's going to hurt!

4) Only one heavy slot used: as awesome as Long Fangs are... there are a lot of other entries that are also quite awesome in their own right and add dimensions to the army list that missile fangs can not. These aren't really fielded that often because of missile fang spam. Well, if you burn your HQ slots making one long fangs pack more powerful than suddenly you can field those 2 vindicators or 2 whirlwinds that you've always wanted to use. Personally, I'd go with the whirlwind option because of how well it synergizes with the lascannons AND it eliminates the ork threat that not using missile launchers would've caused. But still, there are plenty of cheap effective options here which can be used very well in conjunction with the long fang death star.

5) Eliminates spammyness. Personally, I hate spamming units. Especially Space Wolf units. Space Wolves are unique in their non-standard based approach to warfare. Why standardize them with spam? This benefit really isn't a game benefit just more of a flavor benefit.

6) Cost. This is a minor benefit but it costs roughly the same as two missile fang packs with Rune Priests and Razorbacks. Considering how reasonable it is that two of these units would be fielded, I think it makes sense to consider the Long Fang death star as an alternative.

7) Easy to defend vs close combat threats with a single counter-assault unit (such as Thunderwolves). You don't really need to go overboard with a CC defense unit... just something small that can effectively respond if something makes it into close combat. Maybe even a Grey Hunters pack. It shouldn't be difficult to add a bubble wrap layer to the front of this unit. You also have a chance of having the divination power that lets you fire at full BS which would be great on this unit.

8) Fear - once your opponents have had a taste of just how much damage this unit can cause and how hard it is to eliminate then it'll screw with their plans. Powerful psychological tool.

The only weakness I can really see is how many points would be sunk into a unit that isn't properly geared to deal with a major horde. But this is why I would also bring 2 Whirlwinds. The Aegis Defense Line will protect those as well with a 4+ cover save and even provide some blocking to your flanks in case of fast units. You can still add a heavy gun razorback to this unit if you want though personally I don't see the point. I'd be more likely to keep a Razorback back with this formation if it had Grey Hunters in it.

Thoughts?

 derpyhooves72 wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of a Long Fangs death star of sorts.

Rather than spending lots of points on missiles and rune priests, consolidate them into one extremely difficult unit to crack which also hits harder.... here's what I'm thinking:

Long Fangs: 5x Lascannons (& Pack Leader)
Wolf Guard Pack Leader TDA - Plain loadout
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Runic Armor, Saga of the Hunter, 2x Fenrisian Wolves
Rune Priest - Runic Armor
Aegis Defense Line w/ Icarus Lascannon

The whole thing works out to 573 points.

The idea here is quality over quantity. My missile fangs usually get torn to shreds as described previously in this post. Here are the advantages I see to running the "Long Fangs Death Star":
Thoughts?

nearly 600 points that would love to get stuck in combat...

 Exergy wrote:

 derpyhooves72 wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of a Long Fangs death star of sorts.

Rather than spending lots of points on missiles and rune priests, consolidate them into one extremely difficult unit to crack which also hits harder.... here's what I'm thinking:

Long Fangs: 5x Lascannons (& Pack Leader)
Wolf Guard Pack Leader TDA - Plain loadout
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Runic Armor, Saga of the Hunter, 2x Fenrisian Wolves
Rune Priest - Runic Armor
Aegis Defense Line w/ Icarus Lascannon

The whole thing works out to 573 points.

The idea here is quality over quantity. My missile fangs usually get torn to shreds as described previously in this post. Here are the advantages I see to running the "Long Fangs Death Star":
Thoughts?

nearly 600 points that would love to get stuck in combat...

Luckily the Wolves are good at combat and it doesn't require an intense investment to protect this unit from that combat. Between power weapons already embedded in the unit and a counter-attack unit nearby it shouldn't require an awful lot to weather an assault.

Also, it can be a tactical advantage to force your opponent to have to send his close combat specialists at your Long Fangs. By forcing them to you, you know exactly where they're going to be and can setup a death trap for any such unit. Basically you force them to fight on your terms. Missile fangs don't command that sort of respect. They can be dakka'd away.

Long Fangs are, in my mind, a rather outdated unit. Despite their firepower, they are highly vulnerable in 6th edition, and the units that they are best against-- AV11 transports-- are not being fielded as often as they once were. While Long Fangs are by no means a bad choice, I'm not sure that they're at all optimal, especially now that the Razorback you can bring in with them is significantly less appealing.

Consider that you can take a Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons for 120 points-- this seems perhaps a stronger selection than a unit of Long Fangs, especially with the increased resilience 6th edition has brought to AV13 vehicles.

 Kingsley wrote:
Long Fangs are, in my mind, a rather outdated unit. Despite their firepower, they are highly vulnerable in 6th edition, and the units that they are best against-- AV11 transports-- are not being fielded as often as they once were. While Long Fangs are by no means a bad choice, I'm not sure that they're at all optimal, especially now that the Razorback you can bring in with them is significantly less appealing.

Consider that you can take a Predator with autocannon and lascannon sponsons for 120 points-- this seems perhaps a stronger selection than a unit of Long Fangs, especially with the increased resilience 6th edition has brought to AV13 vehicles.

Thanks for putting into words the thought I couldn't. For some reason I'm no longer worried about them in 6th. I think you hit the nail on the head.