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I really want to find ways to cheat GW's prices
Like finding a pdf of a codex online
Loophooling paint
Buying 3rd party models
I feel bad doing this, but I don't know if I should, I mean is this something that's a widespread thing, like a mass rebelling of GW prices or is it a smaller thing? Or am I just a jerk?

Uh, well the first one is illegal, not sure what the second means, and the third is fine but not allowed at GW stores.

I can understand wanting to cheat thier prices, but ultimately, if you love the game and hobby, then cheating them of thier cut undermines thier ablity to be able to produce quality content...overpriced or otherwise...

I'd definitely look into other model ranges though, this is a great way to have your cake and eat it so to speak. As for the rest, check out ebay for cheap goodies and be thankful you don't have to shop in Australia for your warbarbies like i do. Just for a laugh, go check out the GW website and click the aussie flag...remember both our dollars have virtually the same value at the moment...then come back to me about how expensive you have it!

Good luck mate!

Like finding a pdf of a codex online

That depends. Codex that you're going to use? Grow up and pay for it instead of stealing it. Codex that you're just going to look at so you're reasonably familiar with your opponent's army and won't be fooled when they try to cheat? Can't really blame you.

Loophooling paint

What exactly is that?

Buying 3rd party models

That depends. Buying third-party models because you think it's a cool model and want to make an army that looks different from the "official" one? Awesome. Buying third-party models because you don't care how your army looks and just want the cheapest option that's vaguely WYSIWYG so you can play the latest netlist and then put it on ebay to fund the next third-party netlist as soon as a new codex arrives? You're an awful person.

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
I really want to find ways to cheat GW's prices
Like finding a pdf of a codex online
Loophooling paint
Buying 3rd party models
I feel bad doing this, but I don't know if I should, I mean is this something that's a widespread thing, like a mass rebelling of GW prices or is it a smaller thing? Or am I just a jerk?

I remember a white dwarf article that told you how to build a tank out of an old used up push-up deodorant container. Scratch build! The only problem is that all the deodorant containers I ever used were made from magic glue repelling plastic.

Not really. If you want to play the game, but you have to sacrifice things you prioritize more to achieve it by using actual GW product, then there is no shame in finding other sources.

1. Im a little dubious on having a pdf of a rulebook that I do not own...but thats just a me thing....I don't really care if my opponents do (so long as its legit and unaltered)
2. I know plenty of people who paint (spectacularly at that) using dollar store/michaels acrylic paint (requires more thinning/mixing, but is way cheaper)
3. If a cheaper 3rd party option exists that looks right to you...then go for it. In my experience (outside of Guard/Nid/Ork alternates) there are few 3rd party models which whose cheapness makes up for their aesthetics compared to GW models. However there is the ebay/discount resale market

No reason to have a moral quandary over budgeting for a hobby. At the end of the day you want to play a game, do it however you want. GW's goal is to make money, they really do not care if its yours.

If you play in a legit GW store....then ignore most of what I just said.

Id buy the Codex. Money issues aside, it's just too nice being able to do some list-nerdery whenever/where-ever without lugging a computer along.

By loopholing paint, I'm guessing you mean not using Citadel paint? I'd recommend using other brands, Citadel paint is pretty crappy. Get some Reaper. Tiniest bit cheaper, comes in dropper bottles (!!!!), more vivid color and it doesn't have the consistency of elmers glue.

I'm also a big fan of 3rd party models simply because many 3rd party options look better than the official GW stuff. I've even seen people use 3rd party stuff at tourneys and no one minded, as long as you can tell what it is.

I do buy cheaper paints, yay dollar stores!
But the codex, The new chaos codex is 50$
The older was 30$ and some change
I understand some price hikes but geez man
Geez...
The third party models, I like them, I like to add the variety to my armies and to save a bit, but loosing out on Tournies is the main downfall

Some people want to drive a Ferrari, can't afford it and contemplate stealing one, because, you know, rich people deserve to get their cars stolen. Guess these people will understand you

I'd check with your local Tournies. As I said I've seen tourney reports that included 3rd party stuff with no issue. As long as it looks close enough to what it is representing that it's not questionable I doubt you'll have many issues. Keep in mind that GW does not run the tourneys, unless you go to a tourney at a GW store.

Eh, it doesn't strike me as being a jerk. Possibly cheap, but not a jerk. Really it's more an issue of how your local group feels than a bunch of random schmucks on the internet do. If your whole group is fed up with GW's prices and isn't fixated on playing their game? Screw GW and switch to a different system. Mantic is looking promising and has considerably cheaper models with similar game systems. Malifaux, Infinity, and Warmachine are pretty solid games and while the per model cost is higher, you need a lot less models.

Just don't be that guy. You know the guy. The one who always has to borrow a tape measure and dice. That's where I draw my principled stance, the line which I shall not cross, damnit.

 Jihadnik wrote:
Just for a laugh, go check out the GW website and click the aussie flag...remember both our dollars have virtually the same value at the moment...then come back to me about how expensive you have it!

Good luck mate!

Wow. I should load up at that page, and then look at an internet retailer's price sheet... I'll feel like I must be doing something illegal. Chrissake... I knew Aussies complained about it being expensive, but I'm amazed people still play the game with that kind of gouging. Maybe I should start an underground black market for Australian GW products... trade plastic for Koala meat.

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
I do buy cheaper paints, yay dollar stores!

But how is that "loopholing"?

And of course the important question here: are the final results as good as if you'd used GW paints? If so, no problem, congratulations on discovering that GW's paints aren't necessarily the best tool for every job and using whatever gives you the best results. If not, you need to just accept that quality paints cost money and pay the extra to get something that looks decent.

But the codex, The new chaos codex is 50$
The older was 30$ and some change
I understand some price hikes but geez man

It's a hardcover book, which means it's inevitably going to cost more because it's a more expensive object. Now, you can argue the wisdom of making a high-quality hardcover out of something that you need to haul around to every game (the reason why the starter set rulebooks are so popular), but the price increase once you decide to do it that way is entirely justified.

What is bad is making threads whose titles tell me nothing about the thread. Everything else doesn't bother me unless your not buying the codex of the army you field. Just buy a used copy online.

Insurgency Walker wrote:

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
I really want to find ways to cheat GW's prices
Like finding a pdf of a codex online
Loophooling paint
Buying 3rd party models
I feel bad doing this, but I don't know if I should, I mean is this something that's a widespread thing, like a mass rebelling of GW prices or is it a smaller thing? Or am I just a jerk?

I remember a white dwarf article that told you how to build a tank out of an old used up push-up deodorant container. Scratch build! The only problem is that all the deodorant containers I ever used were made from magic glue repelling plastic.

I think that was out of the Rogue Trader 1st Ed Rule book. In their defense they had no plastic models at the time and tanks came way later.

Peregrine wrote:

Like finding a pdf of a codex online

That depends. Codex that you're going to use? Grow up and pay for it instead of stealing it. Codex that you're just going to look at so you're reasonably familiar with your opponent's army and won't be fooled when they try to cheat? Can't really blame you.

.

Pick a side of the fence and go with it. Grow up and stop stealing GWs IP for any reason. There is no its OK to steal it "If". I'd have 100 times more respect if you just said, "yeah, steal it F' EM."

On the codex note. Dropping 50$ for a book that last you 4-12 years.

I always kinda' look down on armies that are made mostly of 3rd party models. Sure, a couple because the conversion looks cool, or maybe you don't like GW's models for one of your units, but if you're replacing your whole (or most of your) army, I do find it offensive.

I pay for GW stuff because that is who makes the game. That is what the game is intended to be played with. Are you better than me? You get to use an army made up of models half the price of mine, with no negative ramifications? I'd take the same offense if I was playing a videogame against someone using a pirated copy. If you'd like to play the game, pay for it. If not, pay less for a different game. It seems to be only fair.

This is not a cheap hobby. It's cheaper than others (paintball, video consoles + a few games, most sports) and in general you get a long lifetime from your models. Just buy stuff more slowly if price is the issue. Pick a cheaper army.

 TheCaptain wrote:
I pay for GW stuff because that is who makes the game. That is what the game is intended to be played with. Are you better than me? You get to use an army made up of models half the price of mine, with no negative ramifications? I'd take the same offense if I was playing a videogame against someone using a pirated copy. If you'd like to play the game, pay for it. If not, pay less for a different game. It seems to be only fair.

Maybe I've been looking up different stuff but in general, 3rd party stuff isn't really cheaper. It just provides a different look, or provides models for units GW has yet to. I don't understand why you'd take someones choice in mini brands so personally. If you can clearly tell what it represents what's the problem? I'm not trying to poke at you, I'm seriously curious. Using 3rd party models has nothing to do with pirated stuff, because nothing was pirated. None of my 3rd party stuff was all that cheap and was purchased either because there is no GW mini available, or the GW option looks like crap imo, and I'm not gonna drop money and time on a mini that I don't like. I don't use GW Zoans, so should I just not be allowed to use Zoans because I don't want to shell out nearly $100 for minis I don't like? The fact that Trollforged's Alien Brains are cheaper was just icing, as I would've purchased them over GW Zoans even if they cost the same.

If GW doesn't provide minis for units, which is common for armies like Tyranids, am I just not allowed to use the unit in your opinion? There are 8 units in the Tyranid codex without GW models, and a lot of unit options without bits for them. In your book, do I have to sculpt and cast 1/4 (no exaggeration) of my codex on my own?

Do what you want.... youre not breaking any laws, (mabye copyright on the codexes)

 60mm wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
I pay for GW stuff because that is who makes the game. That is what the game is intended to be played with. Are you better than me? You get to use an army made up of models half the price of mine, with no negative ramifications? I'd take the same offense if I was playing a videogame against someone using a pirated copy. If you'd like to play the game, pay for it. If not, pay less for a different game. It seems to be only fair.

Maybe I've been looking up different stuff but in general, 3rd party stuff isn't really cheaper. It just provides a different look, or provides models for units GW has yet to. I don't understand why you'd take someones choice in mini brands so personally. If you can clearly tell what it represents what's the problem? I'm not trying to poke at you, I'm seriously curious. Using 3rd party models has nothing to do with pirated stuff, because nothing was pirated. None of my 3rd party stuff was all that cheap and was purchased either because there is no GW mini available, or the GW option looks like crap imo, and I'm not gonna drop money and time on a mini that I don't like. I don't use GW Zoans, so should I just not be allowed to use Zoans because I don't want to shell out nearly $100 for minis I don't like? The fact that Trollforged's Alien Brains are cheaper was just icing, as I would've purchased them over GW Zoans even if they cost the same.

Some are much cheaper, some not so much. It's more of a "I abide by the rules GW puts into place, why shouldn't you" idea. Not that I'd ever refuse a game for this ideal, I've played games against blank bases just to play a game. It's just a personal ideals thing.

And like I said about that last bit, you don't use GW zoans, sure. I don't mind that, and I don't mind those ideals generally, as long as it isn't excessive. My distaste for the matter moreso comes into play when I end up across from a guard player that "doesn't like GW's Troops, tanks, flyers, and chimeras" so everything is third party. It is harder to tell what I am facing, what it is armed as, and eh, call me stupid, just kinda kills the whole "forging a narrative" part for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 60mm wrote:
If GW doesn't provide minis for units, which is common for armies like Tyranids, am I just not allowed to use the unit in your opinion? There are 8 units in the Tyranid codex without GW models, and a lot of unit options without bits for them. In your book, do I have to sculpt and cast 1/4 (no exaggeration) of my codex on my own?

Again, I'd never refuse a game for it, so no, you wouldn't be disallowed from anything ever. Above all else, I love playing the game.

But to your question, of course not. It's more of a "Why not buy the GW models for (most of) your army if everyone else does" thing. If there aren't any, then that doesn't really stand up.

I hadn't thought of anyone using entirely 3rd party models . . . which brings me to a confusing thought . . . does that imply there are people who play 40k for the ruleset?!?

 60mm wrote:
I hadn't thought of anyone using entirely 3rd party models . . . which brings me to a confusing thought . . . does that imply there are people who play 40k for the ruleset?!?

Sadly yes.

That or because they can't find a game of anything else. Either way, it's that brand of shenanigans that ruffles my feathers.

I purchased a large manic undead bundle army when I started VC because I wanted to be able to field a 2000pt army quickly on a razorwire budget. The Lords/specials/rares I purchased from GW because they look cool as all feth.

Now that I have the lords/specials/rares out of the way I'm slowly phasing out the manic rank and file undead for the GW rank and file undead.

I buy all my paints at Wal-Mart but I use many of the GW washes because they are pretty awesome.

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
Loophooling paint
Buying 3rd party models

Nothing wrong with either of these.

Army Painter, Reaper, P3 and Vallejo all make fantastic paint ranges. Limiting yourself to any one range is doing yourself a disservice. GW paints have a place in any painters collection, just like other brands.

As for 3rd party models, in some cases it's still the only way to get some entire units for GW games, and in other cases it makes it far easier to to some conversions.

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
I really want to find ways to cheat GW's prices
Like finding a pdf of a codex online
...
I feel bad doing this, but I don't know if I should, I mean is this something that's a widespread thing, like a mass rebelling of GW prices or is it a smaller thing? Or am I just a jerk?

There is something wrong with this. Whether you agree with the prices or not, man up and pay for it. If you want a PDF copy to use in a store because you don't want to damage your expensive book, all good if you clear it with the store owner. Otherwise, just buy the book.

 Warboss Gideon wrote:
I really want to find ways to cheat GW's prices
Like finding a pdf of a codex online
Loophooling paint
Buying 3rd party models
I feel bad doing this, but I don't know if I should, I mean is this something that's a widespread thing, like a mass rebelling of GW prices or is it a smaller thing? Or am I just a jerk?

Finding a pdf of a Codex is illegal; I can't condone or advise you to undertake such action.

'Loopholing' paint isn't actually a problem; there's no reason you need to use GW paints on anything. Just make sure it's intended for modelers, paint that's too thick and will fill all the gaps on your model is entirely too easy to find by accident.

3rd party models are supposedly acceptable, but I will point out that you can't use them in official events, your opponent in a pick-up game may have different opinions about 3rd-party models than you do, and that there aren't many 3rd-party models of any sort that look like they might belong in 40k while being anywhere near as high-quality as GW's recent sculpts and cheaper. I've found that 3rd party models are virtually always more trouble than they're worth.

Finding a PDF *can be* illegal, depending on your country. In the context of this forum it is a no no.

Peregrine wrote:Codex that you're going to use? Grow up and pay for it instead of stealing it. Codex that you're just going to look at so you're reasonably familiar with your opponent's army and won't be fooled when they try to cheat? Can't really blame you.

Yeah, as an American, I have sort of a "no harm no foul" view of copyright that isn't found in, say, Europe, where GW is forced to follow very different laws to do a lot of business.

Copying something you were never going to purchase doesn't feel like theft. Reducing the income of the content provider by not paying for something that you use all the time sort of does. I own the rulebook, and I own my guard codex. I didn't purchase the copy of the 3rd ed ork codex I have, but as you can't even buy them anymore, I feel little moral obligations (much less any legal ones).

What starts getting into a more grey area for me is scratchbuilding. And heavy 3rd party conversions. There's nothing wrong with it, per se, but whatever artistic license you're taking (as I have on many, many an occasion) it is sort of draining. I like to justify it by the fact that staying in the hobby means that I buy more stuff over time. If being too poor to play made me quit, GW would be a lot worse off, over time, by me not being a customer. Kind of like the classic argument that a little piracy is actually good for intellectual property holders.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Codex that you're going to use? Grow up and pay for it instead of stealing it. Codex that you're just going to look at so you're reasonably familiar with your opponent's army and won't be fooled when they try to cheat? Can't really blame you.

Yeah, as an American, I have sort of a "no harm no foul" view of copyright that isn't found in, say, Europe, where GW is forced to follow very different laws to do a lot of business.

Copying something you were never going to purchase doesn't feel like theft. Reducing the income of the content provider by not paying for something that you use all the time sort of does. I own the rulebook, and I own my guard codex. I didn't purchase the copy of the 3rd ed ork codex I have, but as you can't even buy them anymore, I feel little moral obligations (much less any legal ones).

What starts getting into a more grey area for me is scratchbuilding. And heavy 3rd party conversions. There's nothing wrong with it, per se, but whatever artistic license you're taking (as I have on many, many an occasion) it is sort of draining. I like to justify it by the fact that staying in the hobby means that I buy more stuff over time. If being too poor to play made me quit, GW would be a lot worse off, over time, by me not being a customer. Kind of like the classic argument that a little piracy is actually good for intellectual property holders.

Hmm how about a digital copy of something you do own?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Hmm how about a digital copy of something you do own?

Not a problem at all ethically speaking (legally it's just as illegal as any other piracy), and very reasonable to do. While I would of course never support such a horrible violation of the law or encourage it on a public forum, I hear "some people" download copies of all the expensive FW books they've bought because when they're writing an army list in a word document it's more convenient to pull up a pdf copy than to walk over to the bookshelf and get the real book.

 Peregrine wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Hmm how about a digital copy of something you do own?

Not a problem at all ethically speaking (legally it's just as illegal as any other piracy), and very reasonable to do. While I would of course never support such a horrible violation of the law or encourage it on a public forum, I hear "some people" download copies of all the expensive FW books they've bought because when they're writing an army list in a word document it's more convenient to pull up a pdf copy than to walk over to the bookshelf and get the real book.

I'm more curious on scanning my own opposed to illegally D/Ling one. Know a person who just got a letter in the mail about music piracy from the Gov. I don't even pirate stuff and it made me leary, wifi can be hacked and all.

It is not illegal, in the US atleast, to own a digital copy of a physical book you already own. You can scan your books into pdf's all you wish to. And torrenting itself isn't illegal, so if you were to download a Codex that you already own that is perfectly legal as well. Pirating is illegal because people use it to acquire products without paying the producer of the product. Using torrents to share files is not pirating in and of itself. If I were to write a book and share it freely via torrent, for example, no laws are being violated. Which is why torrents aren't illegal, torrent isn't specifically for illegal activity although it does happen. Just like illegal activity happens with knives but they aren't illegal.