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So I read Imperial Armour 8 and I have to say, it seems to subvert quite a bit of 40k tropes: for example the classical image of an amassed invasion like that on the IG codex cover is replaced with only 2400 men supported by the real reasonable marines,the Ravenguard chapter doing precision strikes and insertion into an Ork planet; though the mission was a failure, only 2000 men died; that is a lot by modern military standards, but for 40k standards, and especially for a conflict involving Orks, thats super low.

Elysians, Catachans, Harakoni Warhawks, the Phantine Air Corp and the likes seem to breathe fresh new air into the concept of the "Hammer" of the Emperor and overrall, makes the series seem a lot less grimdark. I think that's a good thing as it shows that the writers who came up with them actually know a thing or two about the military and it's procedures and it also shows that 40k has evolved a lot since it's earlier editions. In a way, seems to redefine IG from the mighty mallet to a small hammer and chisel.

So do you guys think this is a part of GW moving forward with the grimdarkness of 40k?

Kinda, The way I see it is that there will always be people who enjoy jumping out of flying things, it's just that these guys get laser guns.

No, I don't think GW is moving forward. What they have really done is "flatten" things out. If you look at the Guard Codex previous to this one, you had the doctrines system which allowed a player to make all kinds of themed Guard units. The current IG dex throws all of that out for a standardized model. As far as the meeting of miniatures and rules go, you can either have Cadians that look like Cadians or Cadians that look like something else. I'd be surprised if the FW lists allowed for a meaningfully different way to play IG on the tabletop.

 Manchu wrote:
No, I don't think GW is moving forward. What they have really done is "flatten" things out. If you look at the Guard Codex previous to this one, you had the doctrines system which allowed a player to make all kinds of themed Guard units. The current IG dex throws all of that out for a standardized model. As far as the meeting of miniatures and rules go, you can either have Cadians that look like Cadians or Cadians that look like something else. I'd be surprised if the FW lists allowed for a meaningfully different way to play IG on the tabletop.

For the record: if I'm recalling the Doctrines system correctly, you had ten separate units that were Restricted and required a Doctrine to use if you took any Doctrines, you could permit all units to take a Chimera, allow your regular dudes to Deep Strike, take 0-3 Stormtroopers units as Troops, take a couple of Ld boosts, allow you to use Commissars as Independent Characters, pay 15pts for WS4 on any Guard squad, get a sort of lite version of the old Catachan rules that are fundamentally irrelevant today due to changes in how terrain and cover work, give units Preferred Enemy against Orks/Eldar/'Nids, give squads Stealth for +10pts each, give regular Guardsmen carapace armor at +20pts each, replace lasguns with laspistol/ccw for +2pts/model, or give all your units a 6++ Inv save at +20pts/unit.

Let's look over the changes in the present Codex: Everyone can take a Chimera anyway, Deep Striking regular Guardsmen is a waste of time, Stormtroopers are a lot better now than they were then and taking them as Troops should be considered more carefully under the concepts of balance, you've basically got the Ld boosts built into the book already, you can get Commissars anywhere now, Preferred Enemy is a waste of time given that trying to get your Guardsmen into CC is a dumb idea, you can get camo-cloaks and carapace armor on Veterans already, and a 6++ Inv save for 2pts/model is a fundamentally bad investment.

So. You've lost the ability to take WS4/laspistol/ccw Guardsmen for 85pts/squad at the cost of not being allowed to use a whole lot of your Codex. You've gained Valkyries, Vendettas, a crapton more cool Leman Russ/Hellhound/artillery variants, AP3 Stormtroopers...

Fair trade?

I think so.

No Doctrines means nothing at all if you add the options into the base list. Consider the Eldar list's changes from 3e to 4e: Back in 3e, the Saim-Hann variant list could basically switch Troops and Fast Attack, but now the Eldar have Jetbikes in Troops. Alaitoc could take Pathfinders when no other Eldar force could, they've been added to the core rules. We lost the variant lists and got the ability to replicate them using the core list, because the core list became more versatile. Not having variant lists doesn't mean an army is limited to one build, there can be a lot of builds within one list.

I'm not saying the current dex only allows one build. I'm saying the way it was restructured implies that all regiments are the same.

 Manchu wrote:
No, I don't think GW is moving forward. What they have really done is "flatten" things out. If you look at the Guard Codex previous to this one, you had the doctrines system which allowed a player to make all kinds of themed Guard units. The current IG dex throws all of that out for a standardized model. As far as the meeting of miniatures and rules go, you can either have Cadians that look like Cadians or Cadians that look like something else. I'd be surprised if the FW lists allowed for a meaningfully different way to play IG on the tabletop.

I mean fluff wise but in the codex; it allows you to take Veterans as troop choices which is essentially a small elite force.

See above.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm not saying the current dex only allows one build. I'm saying the way it was restructured implies that all regiments are the same.

Why does it imply that? All it says is "here are the things you might find in an IG regiment." The Imperial Guard, as a whole, may field anything in the book, but a given unit of Guardsmen is going to using a subset thereof. Or maybe a given regiment DOES use all of them, but that's their deal. The fluff of the regiment determines what equipment they bring.

Bludbaff wrote:
All it says is "here are the things you might find in an IG regiment." The Imperial Guard, as a whole, may field anything in the book, but a given unit of Guardsmen is going to using a subset thereof. Or maybe a given regiment DOES use all of them, but that's their deal. The fluff of the regiment determines what equipment they bring.

Agreed. All the 'dex does is dictates how that equipment functions on the tabletop.

What it dictates is that any possible IG regiment can work like any other possible IG unit. They did a similar thing to CSM with the whole "war bands" angle. A better comparison might be to the current SM dex which relies entirely on special characters to differentiate chapters (although that is more or less appropriate for Codex chapters). I'm not going to get into an off-topic discussion about rules versatility here. My point is that the current IG Dex does not provide any non- special character method to differentiate regiments, unlike the older book. So if you want a more specific regiment you have to look to FW. That's the opposite of OP's theory about GW.

An interesting fact: The Elysians to the best of my knowledge have been portrayed as losing by GW every single time. Go look in the FW publications. Every time the Elysians appear, they lose.

Yes the Elysians have been almost wiped out in every printed op..historicaly airborne troops always take heavy casulties, and in 40k that has been taken a bit further

But they always die well. (if thats any consolation)

 Manchu wrote:
What it dictates is that any possible IG regiment can work like any other possible IG unit. They did a similar thing to CSM with the whole "war bands" angle. A better comparison might be to the current SM dex which relies entirely on special characters to differentiate chapters (although that is more or less appropriate for Codex chapters). I'm not going to get into an off-topic discussion about rules versatility here. My point is that the current IG Dex does not provide any non- special character method to differentiate regiments, unlike the older book. So if you want a more specific regiment you have to look to FW. That's the opposite of OP's theory about GW.

I'm going to make a list with infantry platoons in Troops and a mix of Leman Russes and Armored Sentinels for support. Bam. Cadians. How about a list of Veterans and Vendettas? A Harakoni army right there. Infantry platoons, light on the heavy weapons, and Scout Sentinels? Catachan. Check out the Themed Army Ideas section on The Jungle (http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/themedarmies.htm) for guidelines as to how to make a distinctive army without special rules, special characters, or altered lists in any way, shape, or form. (Most of that section is composed of ideas built with out-of-date Codexes, but the theory behind them stands)

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Yes the Elysians have been almost wiped out in every printed op..historicaly airborne troops always take heavy casulties, and in 40k that has been taken a bit further

But they always die well. (if thats any consolation)

Surprisingly, their "heavy" losses aren't that bad if you compare them to the losses of other regiments; at most the lose like 2000 something men compared to the millions lost by other regiments