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Hi Guys

I am not sure how these work and hope you can help me, I have played only two games in sixth edition and finding it quite confusing in places. I've read the Rulebook but can't seem to make some stuff out.

So I have a Defiler and I would like to replace his Heavy Flamer (I think) with a Power Scourge, how do the attacks work?

He has 3 attacks base, if I attack with the Power Scourge he gets these 3 attacks at initiative and if I attack with the Power Fists he gets 3 + 1 for 2 specialist weapons at initiative 1, is that correct?

Also, if I replace his Reaper Autocannon for an additional Powerfist, does he get an extra attack like in the previous codex or not? I don't believe this is the case, so not much point in taking another one.

On Champions and them having to issue challenges, can I keep these at the back so that they move up at their initiative step or do they have to be at the front so that they can issue their challenge at the start? I understand that challenges aren't necessarily accepted and he can fight as normal should they be refused. Would a Champion with a Power Fist work as that would make him initiative 1?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Hi Guys

I am not sure how these work and hope you can help me, I have played only two games in sixth edition and finding it quite confusing in places. I've read the Rulebook but can't seem to make some stuff out.

So I have a Defiler and I would like to replace his Heavy Flamer (I think) with a Power Scourge, how do the attacks work?

He has 3 attacks base, if I attack with the Power Scourge he gets these 3 attacks at initiative and if I attack with the Power Fists he gets 3 + 1 for 2 specialist weapons at initiative 1, is that correct?

Also, if I replace his Reaper Autocannon for an additional Powerfist, does he get an extra attack like in the previous codex or not? I don't believe this is the case, so not much point in taking another one.

On Champions and them having to issue challenges, can I keep these at the back so that they move up at their initiative step or do they have to be at the front so that they can issue their challenge at the start? I understand that challenges aren't necessarily accepted and he can fight as normal should they be refused. Would a Champion with a Power Fist work as that would make him initiative 1?

Walkers strike at Init, don't worry about unwieldly.

IIRC he gets +1 attack

You can attempt, however it might result in him not being able to swing.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Walkers strike at Init, don't worry about unwieldly.

IIRC he gets +1 attack

You can attempt, however it might result in him not being able to swing.

Thank you sir

So would that mean that he would have 5 attacks if he replaced the Autocannon with an additional Power Fist as he already has 2? So 3 base + 1 for 2 Power Fists + 1 for an additional Power Fist?

And with a power power scourge would be the basic 3 plus the flail special rule? Or would it also be + 1 for 2 Power Fists, I don't think it would.

At least he would get to survive to the next round, challenges are only issued in the first round of combat if I recall correctly?

Yes, as each additional CCW you have gives you additional attacks on walkers, unless you have a mix of speecialist and non-specialist weapons.

If the Power scourge is a Specialist weapon, then it benefits from the other specialist weapons.

Challenges are issued at the start of the fight sub phase; only engaged models can issue or accept challenges, meaning if your mdoel is not engaged he cannot issue or accept a challenge. In this case he still gets his 3" pile in move at his init.

IIRC walkers gain +1 attack for each extra ccw that they are equipped with (specialist rule doesn't affect them as long as they have an extre close combat weapon the get +1). A defiler with 2 close combat weapons would have Base 3 attacks +1 for 2nd power fist +1 for a third power fist +1 for power scourge= 6 attacks

I have been wondering thsi about the Defielr as well.

I am assumign that every additional combat weapon you give it (be it Fist or Scourge) gives you one extar attack using that weaposn stats.

So if you give it the PowerScourge you get 1 extra attack as S8 Ap...whatever. the extar powerfist will give you one extra atatck at S10 AP2 - just liek the other ones it starts with.

As a general rule i would put your champion in the iddle of the unit so he can't be picked off by a lucky shot from an unseen angle.

I probably play challenges wrong to be honest but i charge in the unit as a whoel and then issue the challenge. if ther challenge is accepted we put my champion and his opponent to one side of the main combat to avoid confusion.

The attack you get from the scourge can be S10 AP2, having a scourge equipped gives you one extra attack. You can then decide either to strike with the power fist or the scourge, just like infantry models equipped with 2 CCW you get the extra attack with the weapon's profile of your choice.

On the champion, you do have to accept any challenge if you are engaged in combat. Models engaged are those within 2" of the btb models, so if your champ is 5" away at the start of the fight subphase he can't accept the challenge and still get his attacks once he gets closer with its initiative step, for this you probably will need really big squads of marines, with a 10man squad you will be most of the time inside the engage radius

Thank you all!

I will check to see if the Power Scourge is a Specialist Weapon or not and will also look at the specific rules for Walkers again, as I guess this is where the +1 attack per CCW is mentioned.

So if I had a Power Scourge and an additional Powerfist, and if both are specialist weapons, I would have 3 Base + 1 for 2 CCW + 1 for 2 additional CCW attacks all at I3 with the Flail special rule?

I got confused because in the old Codex it actually mentioned +1 attack in the profile if you can an extra CCW.

So in regards to the Champion, if he piles in at I1 does he then issue his challenge if there is a suitable target?

Thanks again, I will go away with what you have said and have a look at both books again. Please expect another load of questions tomorrow though as I am sure I will confuse myself more.

Doesn't matter if the weapons are specialist or not for a walker, as long as they are melee they get +1 it's on page 84 BRB. Every melee weapon after the first one gives you +1, the defiler has 2 power fists by default, therefore his base attacks are 3+1 because of that 2nd power fist. If you pay the third power fist you get 3+2 because now you have 2 extra power fists after the first, if you pay the scourge now you have 3+3 because of the 2 extra power fists and the scourge.

On the champion, challenges are issued at the beginning of the fight sub-phase, once you get to I1 the champion would try to get closer to the unit if he isn't locked in challenge but on the next combat phase he will most likely be in range for the challenge and you can't walk away from this one

Yes, you can use either powerscourge, with all attacks and the Flail rule, or the powerfist and hit at S10 AGAIN with alll the attacks.

NO. Read again. Start of fight subphase is when challenges are issued. If you are not engaged at the start of fight subphase NO CHALLENGE can be issued or accepted by the champion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, you can use either powerscourge, with all attacks and the Flail rule, or the powerfist and hit at S10 AGAIN with alll the attacks.

NO. Read again. Start of fight subphase is when challenges are issued. If you are not engaged at the start of fight subphase NO CHALLENGE can be issued or accepted by the champion.

OK

That's much clearer, thanks again.

So despite its cost and it being a little fragile, it can put out quite a lot of hurt as a CCW platform.

It's page 84 for Walkers and the rule allowing +1A for every extra CCW. In addition, the Unwieldy rule itself mentions it doesn't apply to Walkers, that's on page 43.

 Super Ready wrote:
It's page 84 for Walkers and the rule allowing +1A for every extra CCW. In addition, the Unwieldy rule itself mentions it doesn't apply to Walkers, that's on page 43.

Yep, thanks I think I missed this whole section out for some reason. So apologies guys

But thanks to all, I went away last night and had a read of both sections and your assistance made it much clearer. No more questions about the Defiler, he's all cool now.

About the Champion with Power Fist though. Please clarify if I have these correct.

If he is not engaged in the first round of combat he does not need to issue a challenge, he moves up at I1 step and attacks as normal if possible. Combat is resolved. Turn ends.
Come the next round of combat, if he is now within range he must issue a challenge in the first round of this combat turn.

So you might be able to escape the first round of combat, not having to issue a challenge, but come the first round of the second combat he will most likely be squished as he will have to issue a challenge.

Power Fists might not be the best way to go

To clarify, if the champ is more than 2" away from a friendly, from his unit, that is in base contact with an enemy (unengaged) before the start of the fight sub-phase (That is after the charge move for the first round) he cannot accept or decline a challenge. As long as there is a challege in the fight or the champ remains unengaged during the subsequent rounds the champ still cannot accept or decline in the challenge. If at any point during combat the champ becomes engaged (most likely after piling in) he may strike blows as normal, but can be challegend at the beginning of the next fight sub-phase, provided there is no other challenge going on in that particular combat.

If you can afford the points take a lightning claw and a power fist. You can use either weapon when the situation call for it and retain the extra attack for two weapons. Power axe + Power maul is similarly good and slightly cheaper. Keep in mind a fist or axe will make you pile in last if you really want your champ to stay out if the fight.

My Terminator Champion rolls with a Lightning Claw and Chainfist.

Pretty expensive but effective & looks cool! (he beat Mephiston in a challenge in my last game so i am more than happy with him)




Although i like the idea of a Paul Maul combo.....a Berzerker Champion with Powerfist and Power Maul could be half decent...

That sounds like a waste. You won't get the extra attack, and the wound reroll from a claw I would think is better in the long run...

 Super Ready wrote:
That last one sounds like a waste. You're aware the fist and maul are both I1 but won't give you an extra attack?

Power Maul isn't unwieldy.

Dammit. Realised soon as I posted but couldn't edit in time.

Not seen anything 100% clear while scanning over the thread...
A Defiler w/ 3x Power Fist + Power Scourge results in the following:
Choose one of the following to attack with each assault phase:
Attack with Power Fist - 6 (7 on the charge), Str10, AP2 Attacks.
Attack with Power Scourge - 6 (7 on the charge), Str8, AP2 Attacks with -D3 WS for all enemy models in base contact.

 Ovion wrote:
Not seen anything 100% clear while scanning over the thread...
A Defiler w/ 3x Power Fist + Power Scourge results in the following:
Choose one of the following to attack with each assault phase:
Attack with Power Fist - 6 (7 on the charge), Str10, AP2 Attacks.
Attack with Power Scourge - 6 (7 on the charge), Str8, AP2 Attacks with -D3 WS for all enemy models in base contact.

Power Scourge does not require you to attack with it to gain the benefits. It only requires a model being in BTB with it. Therefore you would never attack with that over your PF.

Went back and re-read, so I stand corrected...
A Defiler w/ 3x Power Fist + Power Scourge results in the following:
-D3 WS for all enemy models in base contact.
Then:
Attack with Power Fist - 6 (7 on the charge), Str10, AP2 Attacks.
-or-
Attack with Power Scourge - 6 (7 on the charge), Str8, AP2 Attacks.

Or - why would you ever attack with the scourge? (short of the 3 fists being destroyed)

Oh yeah....so an Axe and a Maul is the better option.

Doesn't matter. I have 2 'Zerker champ models right now, one with a fist and one with an Axe.

 Ovion wrote:
Or - why would you ever attack with the scourge? (short of the 3 fists being destroyed)

For a Defiler, you probably wouldn't. But it represents a different choice for Helbrutes too, which would likely only take the scourge for CC.

I keep seeing where you assume the champion moves after the combat has started. - editors note, this is correct

However, when he issues and the opponent accepts the challenge he does a "castling" type move to put the two challengers in B2B contact. This happens before the first initiative step, "before any blows are struck". Skulking him in the back to game the challenge system doesn't work.

Yes it does. You MUST be engaged at the start of the fight subphase to accept or issue challenges. I

 Super Ready wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Or - why would you ever attack with the scourge? (short of the 3 fists being destroyed)

For a Defiler, you probably wouldn't. But it represents a different choice for Helbrutes too, which would likely only take the scourge for CC.

It could be handy if you are tasking your Defiler with taking out other Walkers i suppose - reducing their WS could be a bonus. Could also be handy if it gets charged by an infantry unit. S8 will still wound on a 2+ against most infantry units and takign a point off their WS stat means they could be hitting you on 5s instead of 4's for example. That coupled with its 5++ and IWND coudl make the Defiler a tougher nut to crack.....at least on paper.

Admittedly i've not really tried them in this codex yet (used mine in one game so far, Kharn basically b***h slapped it in turn 2)

Oh, absolutely, it's definitely useful to TAKE. The question was why would you attack with it...on a defiler with fists, there'd be no point as you still get the WS debuff anyway.

really? i would have though you would only get the advantage of the Flail rule if you used the Scourge.

So you can either hit with:

S10, Ap2 Powerfists

OR

S8 AP2, Flail Scourge attacks


If the Flail rule applies all the time then yes, there is never any point attacking with the scourge just to get a -2S modifier on yourself.

 Praxiss wrote:
really? i would have though you would only get the advantage of the Flail rule if you used the Scourge.

So you can either hit with:

S10, Ap2 Powerfists

OR

S8 AP2, Flail Scourge attacks


If the Flail rule applies all the time then yes, there is never any point attacking with the scourge just to get a -2S modifier on yourself.

Look at Nemesis Dreadknight faq. The sword option ^^

I'm sure there are exceptions, but...the way I now see it working is, you pick one weapon to use the profile of, and any additional effects outside the weapon profile apply regardless.