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So I played a game with my Chaos Space Marines last night and I was wondering if the time to replace those trusty power fist on my Chaos Champions had finally arrived... The issue? Challenges! If he strike last the Chaos Champion is usually dead...

The options are power fist, power sword, power axe, power maul and lightning claws (single or in pair).

The power fist is great for the S x2 and AP2... but that initiative 1 is killing them. The power axe is in the same boat with unwieldy and with only S +1 it's not worth the trade off (unless you're really short on points). The power maul have a good S +2 but AP4 doesn't cut it agains MEQ armies.

So we are left with the power sword vs the lighning claw vs the power fist.

The power sword gives no strenght bonus but it's AP3 and it strike at initiative, same for the lightning claw but with shred (bonus)... but I lose the +1 attack for wielding 2 weapons since it's specialist weapon...

So what do you think? Should I go for the higher initiative power sword of lightning claw (single or in pair) or should I stay with the trusty power fist?

Now for me its between a pair of lightning claws vs a power fist... about the same amount of points but I lose my bolt pistol...

It depends on the squad really. I do not use PF anymore. I prefer a power axe + MB if AP 2 is needed.

Classic CSM : i'd say sword. AP 3, but you keep the additionnal attack.
Berserkers : I do not know these guys. On MoK CSM, I'd go power sword.
Noise marines / MoS CSM : I'd say DLC. Extremely expansive, but the only unit your champion really has a chance to win the challenge before it started.
Plague marine : I use the default plague knife + MB on the champ.

Please note that you do not have to lose the BP with DLC on regular marines or chosen. They have (chosen) or have the option (CSM) to have BP + CCW + bolter. So a DLC champ could have (should have?), a combi bolter. I converted one like that:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/366933-.html?m=2

The lightning claw is better than a power sword in almost any situation. And it frees up a hand for a combibolter or combiplas.

The power maul is jack of all trades, it is only best against 4+ or worse but never gets punked like the sword or axe.

The axe is cheap, but likely not very good as you will be striking last.

The fist has less attacks than the axe, still strikes last, and costs more.

So i say lightning claw, maul or nothing.

If you really want your champion to have a good chance to win challenges then you replace one weapon with a power fist and one hand with a lightening claw. IIRC they are both specialist weapons so you wouldn't lose the +1 attack and you can choose to either take on termies/vehicles with the fist or MEQs and up with the claw. That being said, its crazy expensive. I'm lucky in that I don't have a lot of terminators in my meta, so I generally kit my champion out very cheaply. I almost always go with the only upgrade being a power sword. Vehicles are a lot easier to assault now, especially since CSM have access to grenades so I don't need the fist as much since I can just glance the thing to death.

From a modeling stand point I think the power fist looks so bad ass, its a shame that we have the challenge mechanic making them pretty useless whenever we get into close combat and have to issue and accept them.

If your only choosing between a fist and a claw, then i'd probably say get the claw. A pair if you have the points. It gives you an advantage over most of the things you should be assaulting (i.e. not terminators) and if you take that sweet mark of slanesh then you strike before all your power armored brethren.

For plague marines against against either a MEQ sergeant or TEQ with all the various weapon options power axes are by far the best option.

Since you are already striking at initiative 3 so going down to initiative 1 doesn't really matter and you keep your bonus attack from 2 ccw's.

ThatEdGuy wrote:
For plague marines against against either a MEQ sergeant or TEQ with all the various weapon options power axes are by far the best option.

Since you are already striking at initiative 3 so going down to initiative 1 doesn't really matter and you keep your bonus attack from 2 ccw's.

On the other hand, if they other guy has power armor and a power fist, a plague marine champion might still want that sword...

I agree with Ed.

On PM you're already saddled with I3, so the Axe or Fist are really only about points and modelling.

I don't play vanilla CSM, but I think the sword or claws are about the same, just decide whether an extra attack is better than rerolling wounds.

From my games the sword has been the best choice, 90% of the champions I used with power axe or power fist didn't pass the challenge. Either by being killed before due to power swords or double K.O. against another axe/fist.

The swords on the other hand have received many more boons from the gods, the only champions that i still field with power fists are the bikers and plagues, because of the T5 they have more chances on surviving another power sword and 50% chance to get wounded by an axe, sadly thou when fighting another power fist they are probably both dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salacious Greed wrote:
I agree with Ed.

On PM you're already saddled with I3, so the Axe or Fist are really only about points and modelling.

I don't play vanilla CSM, but I think the sword or claws are about the same, just decide whether an extra attack is better than rerolling wounds.

Actually doing the maths for MEQs the power sword and the lighting claw both do 0.75 wounds so the only real difference is the cost, for things with lower T than 4 the sword is better, for things with T>4 the LC gains terrain

 gpfunk wrote:
If you really want your champion to have a good chance to win challenges then you replace one weapon with a power fist and one hand with a lightening claw. IIRC they are both specialist weapons so you wouldn't lose the +1 attack and you can choose to either take on termies/vehicles with the fist or MEQs and up with the claw. That being said, its crazy expensive. I'm lucky in that I don't have a lot of terminators in my meta, so I generally kit my champion out very cheaply. I almost always go with the only upgrade being a power sword. Vehicles are a lot easier to assault now, especially since CSM have access to grenades so I don't need the fist as much since I can just glance the thing to death.

From a modeling stand point I think the power fist looks so bad ass, its a shame that we have the challenge mechanic making them pretty useless whenever we get into close combat and have to issue and accept them.

If your only choosing between a fist and a claw, then i'd probably say get the claw. A pair if you have the points. It gives you an advantage over most of the things you should be assaulting (i.e. not terminators) and if you take that sweet mark of slanesh then you strike before all your power armored brethren.

Fist+Claw really does beat out dual claw, but both are too expensive. On a lord though they are great.

A single claw does more damage than a sword on a 2 attack champion vs Meq. Against Geq or with str5 the sword starts looking better, and against grots the sword is clearly better. The claw is better when charging, better on with MoK, better against high toughness.
The claw also allows you to take a combi bolter or combiplas if you want as you no longer need your bolt pistol for the extra attack.

Modeling should always be most important. I am gearing up for an all power maul force for my Word Bearers(each champion is a mini DA) and I think the army will look a lot better even if it plays ever so slightly worse against mass 3+ saves.

For my Plague Champs, I like to keep them all equipped with PFs, because odds are I will be going afterwards anyway. Mind you, the greater majority of my opponents are Terminators.

Under normal circumstances, I would be willing to sacrifice the extra attack and use a lightning claw for the reroll to wounds. Coupled with VotLW against marine armies, it adds a good punch in a challenge against Marine based armies.

 Exergy wrote:


A single claw does more damage than a sword on a 2 attack champion vs Meq. Against Geq or with str5 the sword starts looking better, and against grots the sword is clearly better. The claw is better when charging, better on with MoK, better against high toughness.
The claw also allows you to take a combi bolter or combiplas if you want as you no longer need your bolt pistol for the extra attack.

Uhmmmm nop... with the claw a champ gets 2 attacks, it hits MEQs on 4s which is 50% chance to hit, wounds on 4s another 50% chance, due to shred you get another 50% chance to wound on those attacks you missed so...

2*(3/6)= 1 hit, 1*(3/6)= 0.5 wounds, due to shred you get another go at the 0.5 that missed so 0.5*(3/6) = 0.25. Total wounds from LC = 0.5+0.25 = 0.75 wounds

If you go with the sword you get 3 attacks, hits and wounds on the same as the LC so...

3*(3/6)= 1.5 hits, 1.5*(3/6) = 0.75 wounds

so against MEQs it's the same, however as you stated when charging the claw is better that 1 extra attacks gives it a 0.25 advantage over the sword against MEQs

I use Plague Marines as my troops and my Chaos Champions are Plague Champions.

I just want to have a chance to survive if I face a power fist or a power axe.

I did think about the power fist/lightning claw combinaison but it's quite expensive at 40 pts. Worth it on my Chaos Lord tho...

I think I'll go with the lightning claws for now, I will miss that +1 attack but the reroll to wound is a nice plus that compensate... and since I use a power fist I don't have it anyway, so nothing lost there...

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


A single claw does more damage than a sword on a 2 attack champion vs Meq. Against Geq or with str5 the sword starts looking better, and against grots the sword is clearly better. The claw is better when charging, better on with MoK, better against high toughness.
The claw also allows you to take a combi bolter or combiplas if you want as you no longer need your bolt pistol for the extra attack.

Uhmmmm nop... with the claw a champ gets 2 attacks, it hits MEQs on 4s which is 50% chance to hit, wounds on 4s another 50% chance, due to shred you get another 50% chance to wound on those attacks you missed so...

2*(3/6)= 1 hit, 1*(3/6)= 0.5 wounds, due to shred you get another go at the 0.5 that missed so 0.5*(3/6) = 0.25. Total wounds from LC = 0.5+0.25 = 0.75 wounds

If you go with the sword you get 3 attacks, hits and wounds on the same as the LC so...

3*(3/6)= 1.5 hits, 1.5*(3/6) = 0.75 wounds

so against MEQs it's the same, however as you stated when charging the claw is better that 1 extra attacks gives it a 0.25 advantage over the sword against MEQs

ugg, did the same math in the other room, but then got confused on my way back to my computer. Yes, it is the same when not charging but better when charging. It frees up a hand for a shooty weapon and its the same cost.

Don't forget that against most MeQs (loyalist marines), your champion will be re-rolling to-hit thanks to Veterans of the Long War in the first turn, no matter who charged. So the average number of hits will be higher, making the ability to consistently wound (Rend) more valuable.

Basically it comes down to a meta choice. If you see a lot of MEQ claw is best. Against GEQ maul is best. Axes for TEQ or mauls if you want to strike at init.

Swords are best only if you have access to enfeeble against MEQ.

Claw + fist is a very expensive set for a simple champion on a lord its awesome if your using models with MoS keep the sword or claw as int 5 means you will shred that seargent before he has a chance to swing anything else and i would say maul if you are unfortunate enough to be in CC with termies then the high str of the maul is going to put out more wounds than the sword or claw without gimping your Int