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There is a lot of talk around at the moment about certain necron lists being over-powered. In particular, flyer heavy lists. However, flyer spam isn't that devastating in isolation (unless you have a very low model count army). But when it's backed up with a unit or two of wraiths, it's a lot harder to respond to.

With this in mind, I actually think it's the wraiths that make the list very hard to deal with.

Would one of two solutions level the playing field:
1. a 1 point reduction in wraith strength. This would create a slight dent in the wounds they could deal, and also limit the wraiths ability to easily deal with a lot of transports (outside of rends) and certain monstrous creatures
2. a 1 point reduction in wraith attacks. A unit of wraiths, charge or no charge, have a very large number of attacks. Reducing the stat by one would have a much larger proportionate reduction in total damage, but wouldn't do much to limit their ability to destroy certain targets.

Thoughts? Has this been discussed before?

Both what you say and your reasons behind it are suspect.

You claim Necron flyer lists are over-powered. They are demonstrably not.

Your solution to that false claim is to modify a completely different unit. That is spurious at best.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Both what you say and your reasons behind it are suspect.

I get what you're saying, but I was just hoping for a discussion on the issue, to get peoples' thoughts. I personally use necrons, and no one else in my group does. If anything, this would only hamper me. For the record, I'm not posting this idea as a result of sour grapes from a loss. I've never even played against Necrons.

I'd infer from your response though, that you don't think flyer spam is all that powerful, and you certainly don't believe that the lynch-pin to the most powerful flyer lists is wraiths (as opposed to flyers).

I'm not even sure if Wraiths are OP enough to justify nerfing them, but if I were to do it the place to start would be their cost, not their statline. This can be done one of three ways. The first is a flat increase to their cost per model, somewhere in the 2 to 5 ppm range. This would keep them from being UP, and it would also encourage more competition within the fast attack slot of the codex. The second is to increase the cost of the Whipcoils upgrade. Whipcoils are the only thing that are remotely OP about wraiths, so increasing the cost should help limit their use, or at least properly reflect their actual power. The third option is a touch more subtle, and is to make it so that Wraiths must all take the same upgrades if any do (or this could just be limited to whipcoils). This is subtle, as while it doesn't effect the base cost of the Wraith, it means that if you want to take whipcoils, all models must do so, increasing the cost of the average wraith unit (3 naked 3 with coils) by about 30 points.

I'd bump them up to 40pts base cost. They've got a decent number of high strength attacks. However, they're actually not all that killy. Even a 5-man combat squad can hold down a unit of wraiths for a few turns. 2+ save models with power fists/thunder hammers will give them problems as well.

I have no issues with the Wraiths, they are basically the same as Thunderwolf Cavalry with storm shields.

That ignore difficult and dangerous terrain.

And reduce the target to Initiative 1 before blows are struck.

And cost half as much.

It's not that Wraiths are overpowered (at least in my own opinion) it's that they're under-costed. Unfortunately, a lot of things in the Necron codex suffer from this problem (Warscythes and Mindshackle Scarabs, as examples). I think if Wraiths were 45-50 points a model and came with Whip Coils stock they'd be fine. Alternatively, if they remained 35 points but had no option to take whip coils no one would complain about them. Jy2's suggestion of making them 40pts base has merit as well.

Jefffar wrote:
I have no issues with the Wraiths, they are basically the same as Thunderwolf Cavalry with storm shields.

That ignore difficult and dangerous terrain.

And reduce the target to Initiative 1 before blows are struck.

And cost half as much.

That don't have free ranged weapons. That have fewer attacks base, and also don't have Counter-Attack. That have lower Toughness, and no access to power weapons.

They are a xenos codex, they are supposed to do some things very well but sort of weirdly when you think of it from a marine perspective.

I really don't think wraiths are that amazing. Big units of them are expensive with the initiative upgrades that make them decent in a fight. What's more is that they are a lot more durable than they are damaging. Tarpits are not supposed to be expensive, and this one is in a weird place between harrier and assault unit without being scoring or anything. The thing that it really has going for it is is how well it is allowed to pick it's targets, and perhaps that you can include a destroyer lord in the unit.

It is also a very nice bonus that they become such an attractive target to torrent heavy weapons and missiles. This was a really big deal in pre sixth edition flier lists, but now missiles feel like a weird response when trying to hit on sixes.

Wraiths are a damn fine unit, but I wouldn't say they are busted. Maybe necrons just have a few too many aggressively costed units in the new era of assaults being awkward. Hopefully things will settle and change that.

Necrons do have some cheap effective units, but nothing that a slight adjustment in price wouldn't fix. Here are a few units/wargear that could be adjusted to probably make them more in-line with the other armies in terms of competitiveness.


Mindshackle Scarabs - ~20-25pts
Wraiths - 40pts
Night Scythes - ~120pts
Annihilation Barges - ~100pts
Canoptek Spyders - ~60pts

 jy2 wrote:
Necrons do have some cheap effective units,

Every army is in that boat. Why bother with just Necrons?

You either have to house rule everything for your particular house, or just play everything as is.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Necrons do have some cheap effective units,

Every army is in that boat. Why bother with just Necrons?

You either have to house rule everything for your particular house, or just play everything as is.

That's not true at all. He's the only necron player in his area and he's more then welcome to nerf his own army.

I would have loved to see a necron codex that had wraiths along with all three elite choice close combat units all viable. The problem is, wraiths are so good for the points, I never see the other elite choices and fast attack is dominated by wraiths, making the appearance of other fast attack choices very few and far between.

-Matt

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Necrons do have some cheap effective units,

Every army is in that boat. Why bother with just Necrons?

You either have to house rule everything for your particular house, or just play everything as is.

Of course I play it as is.

This is just my opinion on how much those units should actually cost if a player is thinking about nerfing them in their own gaming circle.