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Can an Epidemius-Nurgle marine build handle the meched-up Grey Knights?
Yes, the list is balanced enough to easily handle rhinos. Chaos will crush the knights.
Chaos will struggle, but those heldrakes will be enough to give them the win....barely.
Strength 5 stormbolters vs Toughness 5 marines = Draw or undecided.
The obliterators and heldrakes will make it close, but the knights shall prevail in the end.
The grey knights will have no problems with Chaos. Their firepower is just too great.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

This is my 3rd game in a series of test games with my future Epidemius Nurgle Chaos Space Marine army. The first battle was against my Tyranids (battle report #1 here). In that game, I used primarily all cultists. The 2nd game was actually a rematch once again against my Tyranids (battle report #2 here). My chaos list is ever-evolving. In that game, I tried using some plague marines in what I feel was a more balanced Epidemius list. Finally, in my 3rd game with my Epi-Chaos list, I'm trying something new yet again. This time, I am trying out massed Chaos Space Marines and the new Heldrakes.

As for my mechanized grey knights, I've actually been having horrible luck with them so far in 6th. I've only had 2 games with them so far, both with my Crowe-purifiers. The first game (GK battle report #1 here) was against a full-fledged 9-flyer Necron Airforce. That game didn't go too well for my knights. Then the 2nd game was against Reecius' TAC vanilla space marines (GK battle report #2 here). What I felt should have been an easy win for my knights turned out to be a route by the space marines. Will my bad luck with mech-GK continue? I hope not. This time, I've changed up my lists. It is still a fully meched list, however, it is not a Crowe-purifier list anymore. Instead, I've added a lot more bodies with strike squads and massed S5-stormbolter-spam.

The purpose of this test game is for 3 reasons:

1. Can an Epidemius-Chaos build deal with heavy mech? From my previous game, I feel that they can do well against infantry-heavy lists. The question is, how effective is the Tally against mech builds? Is this truly their weakness?

2. How badly have mech-armies been nerfed by 6th? In 6E, there are a lot of rules that help to nerf mechanized armies. Some of the weaknesses include: can't assault out of a non-assault transport, can't disembark if a normal vehicle moves more than 6", can't claim or contest objectives from within a vehicle and vehicles are easier to kill with assault now. Despite the numerous nerfs, can they still compete like they did back in 5th or is 6E the death of mech-armies as a competitive build? So far in my first 2 games with my mech-GK's, the vehicle nerfs have hurt my army. Will that trend continue here?

3. To try out new units like T5 Nurgle chaos space marines and the heldrakes. At first glance, they look like very good units. However, on paper is usually much different than in practice.

Anyways, enjoy!


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2500 Epidemius Nurgle Marines vs Mechanized Grey Knights


2500 Grey Knights



Coteaz

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, Hammer, Rhino w/Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, Hammer, Rhino w/Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, Rhino w/Searchlights

10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino
10x Strikers - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino
3x Servitors w/Heavy Bolters (Objective holders)

Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



2500 Chaos Space Marines-Daemons



Typhus (Proxied using Abaddon)
Epidemius

20x Zombie Cultists
19x Zombie Cultists
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
5x Plaguebearers

Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)

2x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Mission: Crusade - 3x Objectives


Deployment: Dawn of War


Initiative: Grey Knights


-------------------------------------------------------------------


The game will probably be out on Thursday. For those who want to read the report in its entirety, I will post up Completed in the title when the report is actually finished.



-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

First of all:


DISCLAIMER: Due to my rather small and limited Chaos Space Marine collection at the moment, there will be some proxying in this game. If you are really sensitive to battle reports with a lot of count-as models, then you may want to skip this battle. But if you want to find just how hardcore the new Chaos Space Marines can be, then definitely stick around.


Ok, now that I've got that out of the way, I want to address a rules issue. Namely, can non-daemonic Chaos Space Marine Nurgle units benefit from Noxious Touch given by the Tally? In the first game, I played it as yes, they can, based mainly on RAI (rules-as-intended). In this game, I am going to reverse my decision and play it as no. Why the sudden reversal?

1. Having every Nurgle unit - whether daemons or CSM - wounding on 2's (and ignoring armour saves) is borderline broken. It is just too strong.

2. When there is controversy with a rule, I tend to go either with pure RAW (rules-as-written) or the more conservative intepretation. Besides, I would hate for someone to take this list (or a variation of it) to a tournament with certain expections, only to be told by the TO (tournament organizers) that it is wrong and that they can't do it. Better to have lower expectations and get a pleasant surprise than to have high expectations just to get shot down when a ruling doesn't go your way.

3. This is how the Tally works if you're talking about pure RAW. But if your opponent disagrees with the pure RAW, then hey, you're in better shape.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Spoiler:


Map of the terrain.


Chaos and middle objectives.


GK objective.


Psychic powers. Coteaz gets Prescience and Forewarning. Typhus gets Gift of Contagion and Plague Wind.

For his Warlord trait, Coteaz gives all friendly units within 12" Move Through Cover.


GK deployment. Coteaz hangs out with the purifiers.


Chaos deployment.


Overview of the Deployment phase.




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1

Spoiler:

Grey knights advance. The front 3 rhinos pop smoke. Servitors get mind-locked (they don't do anything this turn).


Grey knights focus their shooting on the oblits. They can only fire snap shots because all vehicles are moving at cruising speed. Shooting takes down 1 oblit on the hill and put 1W on the oblit to the far right.




Chaos 1

Spoiler:

Epidemius comes in and almost scatters into his own allies.

There is minimal movement.


Focus-fire by oblits and plasmas wreck 1 purifier rhino and explode another one. Shooting by chaos troops also take down 3 purifiers. Chaos gets First Blood.

BTW, Coteaz suffered 1W due to Perils last turn.




Grey Knights 2

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 2. Servitors get mind-locked again.


The knights advance while still staying inside their rides.


Well, all except 1 unit.


Due to poor shooting, however, they only take down 2 chaos marines.


This turn, the knights decide to ignore Epidemius and focus on the oblits instead. When the smoke clears, they wipe out 1 unit of oblits and reduce another unit to just 1 model left with 1W left.


Dread and 1 unit of knights kill 1 oblit from the right squad as well.




Chaos 2

Spoiler:

Chaos reserve rolls. No heldrakes come in this turn.



Chaos advance. Time to bring the fight to the knights.


With their somewhat limited shooting, Chaos only manages to weapon destroy 1 rhino and weapon destroy/immobilize the other rhino (with Coteaz).


Finally, right CSM unit double-tap the knights. They only manage to kill 1 knight.

Things are looking downright bad for Chaos now.


Right zombies multi-charge the knights and rhino. Overwatch takes down 5 zombies.


Zombie sargeant challenges the grey knight justicar. The justicar kills him...but then Perils and dies while trying to activate his force weapon. Both units then whiff against each other, both failing to make any kills at all.

Typhus explodes the rhino, killing 1 knight. He then consolidates into combat.


To the left, the obliterator assaults a rhino. Overwatch from the guys instead then proceed to kill him!

Wow! An absolutely dismal turn for Chaos!


BTW, the Tally count right now is only at 4.




Grey Knights 3

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 3.


Grey knights disembark and get ready for a little shooting. BTW, Coteaz casts Prescience and Forewarning to the right strike squad (whose transport Typhus blew up last turn).


GK movement on the left.


Shooting takes down 11 zombies and only 2 Nurgle marines. The chaos marines survive a lot of fire!


On the right, knights shoot down 7 and 3 chaos marines respectively.

No new assault. This is where I feel the sting of the new vehicle rules.


Grey knights kill 6 zombies. Typhus by himself kills 5 knights, bringing the Tally up to 9.




Chaos 3

Spoiler:
The Tally is currently at 9. All plagueswords now wound on a 3+.



2 heldrakes come in.


Chaos movement.


The heldrake cuts down 6 knights. Heldrake also takes off 1 Hull Point from the rhino with its baleflamer.

Obliterator only manages to glance the psyfleman with its multi-melta.


Coteaz eats a plasma shot and fails his Look Out Sir! Chaos space marines then wipe out Coteaz and his purifiers.


Heldrake and chaos marines shoot down 6 knights despite the 4++ from Forewarning.


In assault, Typhus wipes out the 3 knights in combat with him and his zombies.


Obliterator assault the dreadnought, zombies assasult the strikers and Epidemius' unit assault the rhino.


Combat between strikers and zombies is a draw with 2 kills apiece. Plaguebearers wreck the rhino.


Finally, the oblit takes off another 1 HP from the dread.

Wow, what a turn-around! Tally is now maxed out at 20+.




Grey Knights 4

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 4.


Servitors finally pass their test for Mind-lock for the very first time this game. They go and hide behind the hill.


GK movement. 2 units disembark from their ride.


Dread shoots at the heldrake and knocks out its baleflamer (the dice marker on the model is wrong).


1 striker dies to dangerous terrain while climbing up the rhino wreck. This time, the knights focus on Epidemius, but with 3+ FNP, it isn't very easy at all. They only kill 2 plaguebearers.


Striker shooting is pathetic, only killing 1 zombie.


With that, we go to assault. Ther purifiers multi-assault the zombies and Epidemius' unit. They fail to cast Cleansing Flame.


The result of the combat is 4 zombies, 2 knights and 1 plaguebearer dead.




Chaos 4

Spoiler:
This turn is going to be rough for the knights. With the Tally maxed out, all attacks from Chaos, both shooting and assault, will ignore armour saves.


The last heldrake automatically comes in.


The weaponless heldrake vector strikes and wrecks a rhino. I did not vector strike the knights locked in combat because that is another one of those controversial moves.


The other heldrake vector strikes a dreadnought and take off 1 HP from it.


Chaos advance.


Heldrake flames the servitors, hits 2 and only kills 1.


Armour-ignoring bolters are rough. The combination of the heldrake and chaos marines explode 1 rhino and kill off 13 knights (8 and 5). The explosion also kills 2 chaos space marines and puts 1W on Typhus (2W left).


Chaos space marines then fail morale and run. Remind me to get Veterans of the Long War for them next time.


Typhus then fails his charge through terrain and loses another 1W from Overwatch.


2 purifiers die in the combat with Epidemius, whose unit is wounding on 2's (with re-rolls) and ignoring armour saves. At least they wipe out the 2 zombies.




Grey Knights 5

Spoiler:

Overview of the top of Turn 5.

What a drastic turn-around this game has become. Now the knights are the ones who are in danger. Knights are actually ahead at the moment with 2 objectives to 1. However, that can all change very quickly.


GK movement. 2 psycannon purifiers get into the rhino.


Lone knight goes after the zombies, who separated from Typhus last turn.


The knights move towards Chaos deployment for Line breaker.


Dread fires at the heldrake but manages only to shake it, which it later ignores.


At least the knights are able to take out Typhus with shooting.


Rhino shoots down 1 CSM.


Lone knight makes it into the enemy's deployment zone. The other knights, however, don't with their 1" run.


Striker assault the zombies. Both parties whiff in combat.


Finally, Epidemius is able to wipe out the purifiers, losing only 1 plaguebearer in return.




Chaos 5

Spoiler:

Heldrake flies over and vector strikes the servitors on the GK objective, killing both.


The other 2 heldrakes both vector strike the strikers on the middle objective and wipe them out as well.

Wow, the vector strikes are HOT! Each time the heldrakes flew over a unit, they would get 4 hits.


Left CSM shoot down the lone striker.


Right CSM then assault the other lone striker....


....and erases him from this planet.


Finally, Epidemius assaults the last 2 strikers....


....and wipe them out as well.

Game over. The knights concede. All their scoring units and most of their army has been wiped out. Only survivors are 1 unit of 2 purifiers, 3 dreadnoughts (1 locked in combat with the obliterator still) and 2 rhinos (one of which is immobilized). Chaos still have 5 scoring units, the 3 heldrakes and a maxed out Tally.


Aftermath of the game.




Crushing Victory to the Forces of Chaos!!!





-------------------------------------------------------------------


POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines:
I was quite surprised with the performance of Chaos here. I saw them as an underdog army and was actually predicting a GK victory, especially when the knights took out the oblits early in the game. I didn't quite expect this result.

I'm finding this list to be very synergistic. Each and every unit plays a particular role. The oblits are the main force of shooting and can handle almost everything but flyers - infantry, monstrous creatures and vehicles. The zombies provide a screen to protect my troops. Typhus is my main counter-assault offensive unit, though you do have to be careful who you assault with him. Epidemius and plaguebearers draw a lot of fire and buffs up the army with the Tally. CSM are actually the main focal point for the offense, especially when the Tally gets up there. And lastly, the heldrakes provide a threat that is both very real and psychological. I love them because of the way they affect how your opponent plays. It causes your opponent to spread out when maybe he doesn't really want to as well as stay in transports when usually they would want to disembark. I admit that concern for the heldrakes affected how I played my knights this game.

However, 3 heldrakes is overkill IMO. Honestly, I feel that you really don't need more than 2. Next game, I will probably only use 1 or at most 2 heldrakes. In their place, I will try running some chaos bikers and perhaps chaos spawns. I think that will help balance out my Nurgle army.

Despite their performance today, I feel that this list is still lacking to be truly balanced. By the ways, I define balance by how well an army can handle the 3 phases of the game - movement, shooting and assault. The list has respectable enough shooting, which becomes quite deadly when the Tally goes up. While it's not an assault army, however, it's got good anti-assault with tarpitting/screening zombies and T5 marines. Moreover, its assault actually becomes quite dangerous once the Tally goes up. What this list is lacking to be a truly balanced list is mobility. It is currently a very slow army that will have trouble reaching objectives. Deepstriking Epidemius helps, though if you deepstrike him too deep into enemy territory, you really are taking a huge risk. I like the flying Daemon Prince that I used in my previous game. However, he is rather expensive. I'm hoping that Nurgle bikers are somewhat of a solution, but mobility, or rather the lack of, is what is preventing Chaos from being a truly good army like necrons. If they can solve that riddle, then I feel that the new Chaos would be a top-notch codex.


Grey Knights:
How did it all go so wrong for the knights?

1. Heldrakes. Not only are they are a real threat to MEQ armies, but they are a psychological threat as well. They actually affected the way I played my knights. Because of the "threat" of the heldrakes, I left my knights in the rhinos for as long as possible. This actually hurt my offense as I went 2 turns without the use of my full offense.

2. Inexperience. I admit that I haven't fully adjusted to playing non-flyer mech in 6E. Not being able to assault the turn you disembark really hurts. And while I didn't mind getting assaulted by the cultists, Typhus and a buffed up Epidemius really did a number on my troops when they assaulted.

3. Terrain. Due to the terrain and Chaos deployment, it funneled by knights through a narrow opening (maybe only 3 rhino-widths only). It was partially because of the terrain why I couldn't disembark as well. Because to do so, my guys would be bunched up. It would have also created a chokepoint for the knights behind the 1st row. Thus, I either had to disembark before the chokepoint or after all my guys passed it. I chose the latter. Terrain actually played a significant role in this game. I wanted to spread out, but because of the terrain, I couldn't.

4. Dice. I have to admit that the dice on the GK side was pretty bad. Chaos only had 1 turn of bad shooting. GK shooting was consistently poor overall. Their armour saves, when they had one, were also below-average as well. It was only through sheer volume that they were able to kill the obliterators and Typhus. When the purifiers assaulted the cultist-striker-Epidemius multi-combat, they failed to cast Cleansing Flame 3 turns in a row! On the other hand, Chaos was rolling well. While the oblits were failing saves, both with the chaos marines and Epidemius were making their saves/FNP like champs. Every single heldrake vector strike got 4 hits and both their baleflamers and chaos shooting was incredibly effective against the rhinos. By the end of the game, there was only 1 good rhino and 1 immobilized, weaponless rhino left. All the other transports were dead.

I think that if the knights were to play Chaos again in a rematch, they (the knights) would still be the favored army. It's just that today just wasn't their day.




This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2012/11/18 15:56:38



6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Interesting list. I'm actually a firm believer than Plague Marines are still one of the best troop choices in the CSM codex (right after cultists/zombies). You just get so much over a normal Nurgle marine - FnP, Fearless, defensive grenades, poisoned attacks, bolter + bolt pistol + cc weapon.

Even point for point, the Plague Marines are just as survivable. 10 rapid firing bolters should kill around 24 points of models. However, the Plague Marines are Fearless and much better in combat.

I know I'm probably missing something, but I don't really see the point of including Epidemius in this list any more. If you're still ruling that the tally only affects daemons, then that means you're spending nearly 200 points to buff 5 Plaguebearers.

In any case, my prediction...Chaos will beat the ever-loving crap out of the Grey Knights as long as they play defensively. The Nurgle oblits and the helldrakes can practically take on the entire GK army alone. But the zombies and marines will go down fast if unprotected.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

There are a few reasons why I am using regular CSM in this battle as opposed to plague marines:

1. More bodies versus less bodies but with FNP are somewhat equal in resiliency. However, more bodies = better offense.

2. Since I am not relying on the assault-the-quad-gun tactic, I need more offense to get the tally up. In this case, the extra boltguns will help and when I max out the tally, those extra boltguns will be quite deadly.

3. With 9 oblits and 3 heldrakes, the list is already high in points. I wanted some numbers with my troops. Taking plague marines would be like running a small elite army with low-model count. CSM provides a cheap and durable way to keep the body count higher and I didn't want to spam cultists like I did in game #1.

4. I've already tried plague marines and know what they'll like (good). I wanted to try out some T5 chaos space marines to see whether they deserve a permanent spot in my finalized Chaos army.


Epidemius makes the list really good because he is a force-multiplier unit. I think the 2 best units in any codex are 1) units that buff/benefit the whole army (i.e. Fateweaver, Swarmlord, KFF Big Meks, tervigons, Eldrad, Immotekh, Vulkan, etc.) and 2) units that unlock other units as scoring (i.e. Coteaz, Typhus, Draigo, biker warboss, etc.). Army-wide special rules are much better than single beefcake characters.

Also, the Tally only affects daemons in regards to Noxious Touch. CSM non-daemonic units can still benefit from its other buffs (like 3+ FNP and shooting/close-combat attacks ignoring armour saves). CSM daemons will still get all the benefits from the Tally as Chaos daemon units.






6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer






I dont get this tally list, helldrakes are not nurgle, even if you go without the typhus trick i dont think you need him at all, the frame should be:

Lord on bike, with brand, fist, 4++, blight grenades
Epedemius

Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague bearers

6 biker of nurgle with two flamers
Spawns of Nurgle
Spawns of Nurgle

3 Oblits of Nurgle
3 Oblits of Nurgle
3 Oblits of Nurgle

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Portland, Oregon

No reason Heldrakes can't be Nurgle, you just gotta model them up all gross looking and say they breath poison rather than fire.

Not sure bikes fit Nurgle either, being fast troops, which he is not known to inspire.

Looking forward to the report.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Valek wrote:
I dont get this tally list, helldrakes are not nurgle, even if you go without the typhus trick i dont think you need him at all, the frame should be:

Lord on bike, with brand, fist, 4++, blight grenades
Epedemius

Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague marines with 2 plasma
Plague bearers

6 biker of nurgle with two flamers
Spawns of Nurgle
Spawns of Nurgle

3 Oblits of Nurgle
3 Oblits of Nurgle
3 Oblits of Nurgle

It's a little more assaulty than what I had in mind, but that's a good list as well. I may try a variation of it in the future.

I believe the key to a Epidemius-list is shooting. Kill from afar, screen out with some cultists and once you get the Tally up, then charge in. That's not to say other variations won't work, but it's just how I envision my army to be. However, I do like the chaos spawns and nurgle bikers as well. As a matter of fact, my next list will include perhaps 2 units of plasma bikers and 1 unit of spawns.

Though the heldrakes don't contribute to the Tally, they are a very good unit that helps me to rely less on the Tally against armies that don't care as much.


 Panopticon wrote:
No reason Heldrakes can't be Nurgle, you just gotta model them up all gross looking and say they breath poison rather than fire.

Not sure bikes fit Nurgle either, being fast troops, which he is not known to inspire.

Looking forward to the report.

The heldrake is more of a killy unit that will help to make the list more balanced against armies that really don't care about the Tally. Armies like MSU, mech-guards, the green-tide, wraithwing necrons, other daemons, war-walker eldar, DE venom-spam and other horde armies or ultra-shooty lists with hardly any assault components. While it doesn't contribute to the Tally, it is a very good unit none-the-less that I wanted to try out.





6th Edition Tournaments: Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st .....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids
ATC 2013 - Team Fluffy Bunnies - 1st .....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
7th Edition: 2015-16 ITC Best Grey Knights, 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids
Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






I think Nurgle chaos spawn are way better in this sort of build though. They are high toughness, multiple wounds, fast and benefit from the tally. Lets not forget they score in one mission and are a denial unit in 4.

I also agree that Typhus isn't really helping your list. You mention how he buffs the army but you haven't unlocked a single unit with him. I don't really count the zombies as cultists are already scoring and I am starting to think the zombies are awful. They are slow, cause minimal damage and due to being fearless cannot take full advantage of cover, so their FnP is a bit of a wash for me. Also T3 is pretty bad. I really wish you could still mark them but since you can't they don't even benefit from Epididemis. I think the MoN cultists and PM are the way to go but I understand and appreciate why you are vetting other options. Really want to see the MoN Spawn though, I think that is where the combo will truly shine.

Should be entertaining but 65 ATSKNF/fearless marines with s5 SB and 16 PC is going to murder the chaos troops.

The grey knight list would have been even more terrifying if it had a pair of DK. In 6th I am more threatened by them then the dreads to be honest. At least chaos dodged that shell

Any who looking forward to this! Good to see mech V horde! Or should I say Mech/horde V horde rofl.

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Typhus (Proxied using Abaddon)
Epidemius

20x Zombie Cultists
19x Zombie Cultists
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
12x Chaos Space Marines - 2x Plasmas, Boltguns, Mark of Nurgle
5x Plaguebearers

Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)
Heldrake - Baleflamer (Hellblade proxy)

2x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War

Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns

I'm really starting to like the list JY, I'm just not feeling Epi anymore. He seems more like a burden and you could use the pts elsewhere for alot more implact I'm sure.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

 Red Corsair wrote:
I think Nurgle chaos spawn are way better in this sort of build though. They are high toughness, multiple wounds, fast and benefit from the tally. Lets not forget they score in one mission and are a denial unit in 4.

I also agree that Typhus isn't really helping your list. You mention how he buffs the army but you haven't unlocked a single unit with him. I don't really count the zombies as cultists are already scoring and I am starting to think the zombies are awful. They are slow, cause minimal damage and due to being fearless cannot take full advantage of cover, so their FnP is a bit of a wash for me. Also T3 is pretty bad. I really wish you could still mark them but since you can't they don't even benefit from Epididemis. I think the MoN cultists and PM are the way to go but I understand and appreciate why you are vetting other options. Really want to see the MoN Spawn though, I think that is where the combo will truly shine.

Should be entertaining but 65 ATSKNF/fearless marines with s5 SB and 16 PC is going to murder the chaos troops.

The grey knight list would have been even more terrifying if it had a pair of DK. In 6th I am more threatened by them then the dreads to be honest. At least chaos dodged that shell

Any who looking forward to this! Good to see mech V horde! Or should I say Mech/horde V horde rofl.

I'll eventually get to those Nurgle Spawns (and Chaos Bikers). They are good units for sure. The whole Chaos Fast Attack slots are as stacked as the Necrons. FA is arguably their 2nd best FOC slots, right behind their Heavy Support. Now the heavies aren't really better, but I feel that the shooting in those slots make them more necessary to a Chaos list.

Typhus usually dies, but I just love those zombie cultists. To me, they are a necessity to make my list work. That's because currently, my chaos build is a shooty one and I need tough, cheap screening units that won't break away or get swept so easily. However, if I should run a more assault-based Chaos army, I'll probably drop the cultists in favor of regular CSM's.

I'm still torn between the DK's and the psyfleman dreads. The DK's have definitely gotten much better now in 6E. However, the psyflemans are still arguably the best AT in the GK army. And in a meta now dominated by flyers, the role of the psyfleman has also become much more important. To me, this is almost a toss-up.


jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm really starting to like the list JY, I'm just not feeling Epi anymore. He seems more like a burden and you could use the pts elsewhere for alot more implact I'm sure.

I haven't given up on Epi just yet. While it's true that the heldrakes make Epi less vital, his Tally does make a huge difference. You just have to try him out to see what an impact that 200pt unit can have on the army.



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Stephens City, VA

 jy2 wrote:



jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm really starting to like the list JY, I'm just not feeling Epi anymore. He seems more like a burden and you could use the pts elsewhere for alot more implact I'm sure.

I haven't given up on Epi just yet. While it's true that the heldrakes make Epi less vital, his Tally does make a huge difference. You just have to try him out to see what an impact that 200pt unit can have on the army.



While also factoring in risk vs. reward

1/3 games on avg he won't show up on turn 1.

to me it seems the best thing he does is act as a 200pt distraction

   
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San Jose, CA

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

While also factoring in risk vs. reward

1/3 games on avg he won't show up on turn 1.

to me it seems the best thing he does is act as a 200pt distraction

More important than whether he is worth it or not is the type of play-style you like to play.

For those players who don't like the randomness of daemons, I can understand them not liking the unpredictibility of an Epi-CSM build. As for me, I was originally a daemon player (still am). I'm used to it and actually rather quite enjoy it. I'm used to my entire Prefered wave not coming in. An Epi-CSM build is actually an improvement. At least if Epidemius doesn't come in on Turn 1, you still have a fully functional army as well as 90%+ of your forces on the table already.

So it's not all that bad....if you're a glass-half-full type of guy.



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Stephens City, VA

 jy2 wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

While also factoring in risk vs. reward

1/3 games on avg he won't show up on turn 1.

to me it seems the best thing he does is act as a 200pt distraction

More important than whether he is worth it or not is the type of play-style you like to play.

For those players who don't like the randomness of daemons, I can understand them not liking the unpredictibility of an Epi-CSM build. As for me, I was originally a daemon player (still am). I'm used to it and actually rather quite enjoy it. I'm used to my entire Prefered wave not coming in. An Epi-CSM build is actually an improvement. At least if Epidemius doesn't come in on Turn 1, you still have a fully functional army as well as 90%+ of your forces on the table already.

So it's not all that bad....if you're a glass-half-full type of guy.



Haha too true, too bad my glass is always like 1/3 full

   
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Australia

 jy2 wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm really starting to like the list JY, I'm just not feeling Epi anymore. He seems more like a burden and you could use the pts elsewhere for alot more implact I'm sure.

I haven't given up on Epi just yet. While it's true that the heldrakes make Epi less vital, his Tally does make a huge difference. You just have to try him out to see what an impact that 200pt unit can have on the army.


The thing I don't like about Epi is the information it gives your opponent. If he's in a list like this, your opponent has a fair idea of what you're trying to do. They can either adapt their strategy to yours (with much more information than you), or ignore if they think their approach has the edge. While this won't sway every game, I think it creates an edge in their favour, regardless of the list.

The trouble I find when I play against balanced lists (and why I prefer to use balanced lists) is that they're quite adaptable. You can tailor your strategy mid-game, in response to changing conditions. When you have a lot of points sunk in to an Epi build, you're options are more limited. Further, human nature being human nature, it would be hard to decide mid-game, "Ok, my epi plan isn't coming through, I have to cut my losses and start playing like a regular army."

2000 pts

Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick. 
   
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Limerick

 Panopticon wrote:
No reason Heldrakes can't be Nurgle, you just gotta model them up all gross looking and say they breath poison rather than fire.

Not sure bikes fit Nurgle either, being fast troops, which he is not known to inspire.


Neither of these have anything to do with what Valek was talking about.

Read Bloghammer!

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Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
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San Jose, CA

 DexKivuli wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm really starting to like the list JY, I'm just not feeling Epi anymore. He seems more like a burden and you could use the pts elsewhere for alot more implact I'm sure.

I haven't given up on Epi just yet. While it's true that the heldrakes make Epi less vital, his Tally does make a huge difference. You just have to try him out to see what an impact that 200pt unit can have on the army.


The thing I don't like about Epi is the information it gives your opponent. If he's in a list like this, your opponent has a fair idea of what you're trying to do. They can either adapt their strategy to yours (with much more information than you), or ignore if they think their approach has the edge. While this won't sway every game, I think it creates an edge in their favour, regardless of the list.

The trouble I find when I play against balanced lists (and why I prefer to use balanced lists) is that they're quite adaptable. You can tailor your strategy mid-game, in response to changing conditions. When you have a lot of points sunk in to an Epi build, you're options are more limited. Further, human nature being human nature, it would be hard to decide mid-game, "Ok, my epi plan isn't coming through, I have to cut my losses and start playing like a regular army."

When you've been playing 40K competitively for long, nothing really is a surprise. You know that in a Fateweaver build, everyone is going to bunch up around Fatey. In a nob biker, harliestar, TWC wolves or draigowing army, they're just going to march up to you and pount your head in. With Space Wolves long fang-spam, they're just going to sit back and shoot the crap out of your army. DE venom-spam and the necron Airforce are just going to come in and do surgical alpha-strikes to your opponent. MSU is just going to shoot and screen and then shoot some more. To a competitive player, there really isn't any new "info" that you are giving away that a savvy player doesn't already know. You look at a particular army build and you kind of know how they're going to play already. The only question is....what can you do about it?

I believe that an Epi-chaos army is actually a solid army. Now I'm not saying that it's a really competitive or a balanced army, but an Epidemius-Chaos build, even without Epidemius, can still function adequately thanks to the firepower of the oblits and heldrakes and the resiliency of the zombies. Epidemius is really a bonus. At least that's how I consider him. If you build a list whose foundation is based on a "trick", then that list would break. However, if you build a solid foundation for a list which uses a "trick" more as a bonus, then your list is better able to handle other armies. The bonus that Epidemius brings just helps to make it even more competitive.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/16 19:23:14



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Hoping for a greyknight win, that many pagk should be hard for chaos to deal with
   
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San Jose, CA



Sorry for the wait. Will try to finish the report tonight after dinner.


 tuiman wrote:
Hoping for a greyknight win, that many pagk should be hard for chaos to deal with

The grey knights do have better offensive firepower. However, they do need to be careful of those heldrakes when they disembark.




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Typhus explodes the rhino, killing 1 knight. He then consolidates into combat.


As far as I'm aware, you can't consolidate into combat. This could actually be pretty big...GK's could have shot Typhus down (possibly) on their turn 3. Also, the tally would have been much lower at the top of turn 3 - since Typhus killed 5 models in a combat that he wasn't a part of.

Still, a very entertaining and well written report as always. Looking forward to the end!
   
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San Jose, CA



Battle report completed.



Siphen wrote:
Typhus explodes the rhino, killing 1 knight. He then consolidates into combat.


As far as I'm aware, you can't consolidate into combat. This could actually be pretty big...GK's could have shot Typhus down (possibly) on their turn 3. Also, the tally would have been much lower at the top of turn 3 - since Typhus killed 5 models in a combat that he wasn't a part of.

Still, a very entertaining and well written report as always. Looking forward to the end!

Typhus was actually already in combat with the knights. He was in the unit with the zombies who assaulted the knights. It was just that he multi-assaulted the rhino. After combat ended, he just piled into the knights (oops....I meant piled in, not consolidated).



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 DexKivuli wrote:
The thing I don't like about Epi is the information it gives your opponent. If he's in a list like this, your opponent has a fair idea of what you're trying to do.


Which is what exactly? Kill people?
   
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New Zealand

Wow, I'm amazed at the final result.

I think the gk list could do with some more bite to it. Dreadknights are amazing this edition and with teleporter and heavy incinerator would have been a real handful.

Could really do with something to tacke the helldrakes, quad gun or raven.

How did you think it worked having transports? Would a pure foot list be better?
   
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Tokyo, Japan

oof, poor GK. I'm kind of confused by your use of them this time around JY2. As I kept reading I kept thinking to myself,

"Ok disembark them already, the rhinos aren't useful as transports anymore at 24' range"
"Let them come to you"
"Spread out midfield to avoid large flamer hits"
"No, don't park the rhinos so close, that's assault range! You should have gotten out eariler if you plan to assault them arrrg"
"Use them flat out to block shots >.<"
"Oh come on plasma servitors are so undependable"
"Don't need line breaker that badly, just put one squad in a rhino and go flat out then pop smoke at last turn"
" It's over 2k, where's the storm raven? well it's optional but with flier heavy builds more dominant now, I feel like a storm raven really makes an impact and I tend to have 1 at 1500 and possibly 2 at 2k+ but this is purely a personal choice and not really a critism for the report"

Well anyways, I'll think of something more later on but those were just my initial reactions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 09:05:13


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New Zealand

The servitors whiffing all the time, shows they could really do with a cheap inquisitor with prescience joining them, getting of reliable re-rolling plasma cannon shots is great. Mercer did that to good effect iirc, killing of a unit of wolfguard terminators lead by Logan in just 1 turn!!!
   
Made in us
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San Jose, CA

 tuiman wrote:
Wow, I'm amazed at the final result.

I think the gk list could do with some more bite to it. Dreadknights are amazing this edition and with teleporter and heavy incinerator would have been a real handful.

Could really do with something to tacke the helldrakes, quad gun or raven.

How did you think it worked having transports? Would a pure foot list be better?

Yeah, I'm surprised as well. I really wasn't expecting this result. I think 3 factors led to the downfall of the knights in this game (and I will get into more detail with them in my Post-game). Part of it was how I played them, part of it was due to the terrain and part of it was due to bad dice for the knights.

The dreadknights is a struggle for me. While they have gotten much better in this edition, they still can't take on flyers. As for the psyflemans, even though mech is less prevalent nowadays, the dreads are still our best answer for the new competitive units, the flyers. So I am kind of torn between the 2 units.

In my foot-knights list, I normally bring a quad-gun, but with mech, that isn't as necessary. I should have enough shooting to handle the heldrakes.

Without mech, I would have had an extra +320pts to work with. Who knows what type of firepower I would have got with those points.


 sudojoe wrote:
oof, poor GK. I'm kind of confused by your use of them this time around JY2. As I kept reading I kept thinking to myself,

"Ok disembark them already, the rhinos aren't useful as transports anymore at 24' range"
"Let them come to you"
"Spread out midfield to avoid large flamer hits"
"No, don't park the rhinos so close, that's assault range! You should have gotten out eariler if you plan to assault them arrrg"
"Use them flat out to block shots >.<"
"Oh come on plasma servitors are so undependable"
"Don't need line breaker that badly, just put one squad in a rhino and go flat out then pop smoke at last turn"
" It's over 2k, where's the storm raven? well it's optional but with flier heavy builds more dominant now, I feel like a storm raven really makes an impact and I tend to have 1 at 1500 and possibly 2 at 2k+ but this is purely a personal choice and not really a critism for the report"

Well anyways, I'll think of something more later on but those were just my initial reactions.

I must admit that I am a little rusty with playing mech in this edition. With the exception of my 2 previous games with my mech-purifiers, all my mech in this edition has been with necron flyers. Otherwise, about 75% of my games so far in 6E have been foot-lists.

Part of the reason why I didn't disembark sooner was due to concern for the heldrakes. Disembark them too early and then there are plenty of targets for the 3 heldrakes. Move to within assault range and disembark there. Then let Chaos assault my knights. The knights have the advantage in close-combat and this would also protect them from the heldrakes. In hindsight, yeah, I probably would have been better off just parking them 18-24" away, get out and shower the enemy with S5-stormbolters. But you know what they say about hindsight.

Anyways, I will discuss more about the downfall of the knights in my Post-game.


 tuiman wrote:
The servitors whiffing all the time, shows they could really do with a cheap inquisitor with prescience joining them, getting of reliable re-rolling plasma cannon shots is great. Mercer did that to good effect iirc, killing of a unit of wolfguard terminators lead by Logan in just 1 turn!!!

Lol. The servitors never even fired once the entire game! They were mind-locked every single turn except for 1. But that's ok. They were meant only to be an objective-sitting unit. Any offense from them would have been an added bonus. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to get plasma cannons for them. Perhaps next time, I will explore the possibility of adding some meatshields with them along with a cheapo Inquisitor (though my first instinct would be to put the Inq with some strikers if I do get one).





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Been Around the Block




Great battle report and wooo! Victory for Nurgle and over GK mech as well! Victory has never smelled so wretched!

D'oh edited for stupidness. I have been thinking you needed 2 troops choices for allies for it to be legal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/17 17:28:42


 
   
Made in us
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Sarasota, FL

Seems like the GK sort of walked up to get mowed down in this one. Plus the Heldrakes placement a few times appeared to be within 1" of enemy units? Educational report as usual just seemed to be leaned toward Chaos success.

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San Jose, CA



Post-game Analysis updated.


Von Marlon wrote:
Great battle report and wooo! Victory for Nurgle and over GK mech as well! Victory has never smelled so wretched!

D'oh edited for stupidness. I have been thinking you needed 2 troops choices for allies for it to be legal.


Yeah, I'm finding that Chaos isn't as bad as most people think. They are far from perfect and will have problems against some armies, but I think they can hold their own. When they lose, I think it'll mainly be because they couldn't get to the objectives.


 BladeWalker wrote:
Seems like the GK sort of walked up to get mowed down in this one. Plus the Heldrakes placement a few times appeared to be within 1" of enemy units? Educational report as usual just seemed to be leaned toward Chaos success.

They sure did. Terrain played a large part in this. So did fear of the heldrakes. The heldrake definitely is a great psychological weapon against the right army - namely MEQ armies.

As for the heldrakes, I didn't measure them very precisely. I tend to give my opponents a little leeway in terms of placement unless it is obviously illegal. Besides, there was enough space to adjust its movement (i.e. could have moved it back slightly) and the heldrake moved more than 18".

Yeah, for a number of reasons mentioned in my Post-game, this game belonged to Chaos.





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Great report, very enjoyable.

Just out of curiosity I noticed you never mention using any of Typhus's psychic abilities and was wondering why. Do you not use them or have they never had any effect of the game?

I'm finding Nurgle and Slaneesh tables to be very good and underrated. Weapon virus against an IG blob is awesome.

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5000 
   
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San Jose, CA

 Cpt Stubbs wrote:
Great report, very enjoyable.

Just out of curiosity I noticed you never mention using any of Typhus's psychic abilities and was wondering why. Do you not use them or have they never had any effect of the game?

I'm finding Nurgle and Slaneesh tables to be very good and underrated. Weapon virus against an IG blob is awesome.

He only had 1 opportunity to cast his power before assaulting. He tried to cast Plague Wind but failed and periled. That was how he got one of his wounds. I didn't really mentioned it because 1) it didn't do anything because he failed to cast it and 2) I forgot.



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Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




More bike! Bikes are very good now that they arre so cheap! Plus you can run them with MoN and they are fiendishly hard to take down even for units with power weapons. Termies are bloody good too.
   
 
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