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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Grey Templar wrote:
It is also more difficult to make a weapon with an open bolt select-fire.


How so? With a typical hammer-fired closed-bolt system you need an additional sear to release the hammer when the bolt is in battery, and a mechanism on the selector to cam the disconnector out of operation when set to full-auto. With an open-bolt system, the typical method is to have a disconnector which simply bumps the trigger sear out of alignment and thus releases the main sear. Check out how simple the fire control is on the Sten for an example. Another method is for the trigger to operate directly on the main sear, but at an angle such that it slips off and releases it at the end of travel- fire selection then is just a matter of limiting the trigger to half-travel for full-auto, so it keeps the sear down without slipping off.

I would actually argue it's easier to make an open-bolt system select-fire than a closed-bolt one- the fact that firing is tied to bolt closure gets rid of all those nasty issues with debounce or hammer follow; you can use a fixed or cam-actuated firing pin and avoid dealing with a hammer or separate striker altogether.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is a minor benefit in cooling with open bolts, but in practical situations it doesn't really matter.


The test reports I've seen for the Diemaco LSW suggest otherwise; Diemaco offers the gun in both open-bolt and closed-bolt configurations, and the former is much better at sustained fire. I'll have to see if I can find it on the Internet. It's the airflow through an open action that makes a difference; same reason barrels cool faster out of the gun than in it.

Not directly related to cooling per se, but the risk of cook-off also gives closed-bolt guns a lower tolerance for heat than open-bolt ones. So you can run an open-bolt gun to a higher temperature and thus get more shots between barrel changes being needed.

There's also the benefit for blowback-operated guns of preignition, which is where open-bolt guns are generally designed to fire just before the bolt is fully in battery. This forces the recoil impulse to first cancel the forward travel of the bolt before it can accelerate rearwards, and in practical effect lets you build a safe blowback-operated firearm with much lower bolt mass. It's actually a common issue on closed-bolt conversions of semi-auto subguns to have bulged cases or potentially even safety issues because they're extracting sooner than intended- PPS-43s in particular do this badly, if you're curious for an example.

Also open-bolt guns are just generally simpler for mechanical operation- you can change a barrel without having to lock open the bolt, for example.

But for a gas-operated infantry rifle none of these are relevant, and as you noted the impact to accuracy of having the bolt drop before it shoots is significant for precision shooting. I can think of a few examples of at least prototypes of open-bolt rifles, but they're all blowback guns and deliberately crude designs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/08 17:39:44


   
Made in us
Liche Priest Hierophant






 BaronIveagh wrote:
Anvildude wrote:

Second... Why are these available to the police? In what situation could you POSSIBLY imagine police officers needing this!? Military I could see- with a fire/speed control, that could work as a useful man-portable area denial platform. But Law Enforcement?


This situation:



Remember, the police don't always have the superior firepower or equipment. This vehicle was seized by Mexican police.



That doesn't look like something a small calibre high rate of fire weapon would help with.

That would need an anti-materiel rifle, which I can totally understand a police force having. High precision firearms make sense for a policing force. If those highly precise firearms also have high penetration and single-target destructive force, that makes a certain amount of sense too. Killdozer situations would call for that sort of thing.

If there's a situation where you need 5,000 rounds of anti-personell per minute, I think you've gone past a situation where a police force is required. Like, the Microgun is something you need if you want to have fun slicing plywood cutouts in half on the range (and have too much money somehow) or if you need to kill large numbers of people. Neither are things that police forces should be tasked with.

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Made in us
Humorless Arbite





Maine

 catbarf wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It is also more difficult to make a weapon with an open bolt select-fire.


How so? With a typical hammer-fired closed-bolt system you need an additional sear to release the hammer when the bolt is in battery, and a mechanism on the selector to cam the disconnector out of operation when set to full-auto. With an open-bolt system, the typical method is to have a disconnector which simply bumps the trigger sear out of alignment and thus releases the main sear. Check out how simple the fire control is on the Sten for an example. Another method is for the trigger to operate directly on the main sear, but at an angle such that it slips off and releases it at the end of travel- fire selection then is just a matter of limiting the trigger to half-travel for full-auto, so it keeps the sear down without slipping off.

I would actually argue it's easier to make an open-bolt system select-fire than a closed-bolt one- the fact that firing is tied to bolt closure gets rid of all those nasty issues with debounce or hammer follow; you can use a fixed or cam-actuated firing pin and avoid dealing with a hammer or separate striker altogether.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There is a minor benefit in cooling with open bolts, but in practical situations it doesn't really matter.


The test reports I've seen for the Diemaco LSW suggest otherwise; Diemaco offers the gun in both open-bolt and closed-bolt configurations, and the former is much better at sustained fire. I'll have to see if I can find it on the Internet. It's the airflow through an open action that makes a difference; same reason barrels cool faster out of the gun than in it.

Not directly related to cooling per se, but the risk of cook-off also gives closed-bolt guns a lower tolerance for heat than open-bolt ones. So you can run an open-bolt gun to a higher temperature and thus get more shots between barrel changes being needed.

There's also the benefit for blowback-operated guns of preignition, which is where open-bolt guns are generally designed to fire just before the bolt is fully in battery. This forces the recoil impulse to first cancel the forward travel of the bolt before it can accelerate rearwards, and in practical effect lets you build a safe blowback-operated firearm with much lower bolt mass. It's actually a common issue on closed-bolt conversions of semi-auto subguns to have bulged cases or potentially even safety issues because they're extracting sooner than intended- PPS-43s in particular do this badly, if you're curious for an example.

Also open-bolt guns are just generally simpler for mechanical operation- you can change a barrel without having to lock open the bolt, for example.

But for a gas-operated infantry rifle none of these are relevant, and as you noted the impact to accuracy of having the bolt drop before it shoots is significant for precision shooting. I can think of a few examples of at least prototypes of open-bolt rifles, but they're all blowback guns and deliberately crude designs.


The only successful firearm that fires semi from a closed bolt and auto from an open bolt that I can think of is the FG-42. I love the FG-42 and keep flirting with the idea of getting one if the reproductions.

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Made in us
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Taught a woman to shoot yesterday. She had been afraid of it all her life but decided she needed to learn how. She felt confident and empowered by the end. Good time.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Anvildude wrote:
[
That doesn't look like something a small calibre high rate of fire weapon would help with.

That would need an anti-materiel rifle, which I can totally understand a police force having. High precision firearms make sense for a policing force. If those highly precise firearms also have high penetration and single-target destructive force, that makes a certain amount of sense too. Killdozer situations would call for that sort of thing.


Narcotanks are less tank, and more APC, so the whole idea of comparing it to a 'killdozer' will get you and your pals killed.. Sure, the vehicle itself is big and scary, but it's packed full of heavily armed combatants if you do manage to bring it to a halt. While the minigun isn't all that useful against the tank itself, it is useful when guys with AKs come piling out of it like it's a clown car.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 18:22:26



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Liche Priest Hierophant






Fair enough. Didn't know what I was looking at, I suppose.

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Pewling Menial





Superior, Wisconsin

Also on the Killdozer situation they were briefly debating using guided missiles to try and stop it, and it only stopped because it fell into a basement and was overheating from a coolant leak. Anti Materiel rifles wouldn't have done anything to that monstrosity on a good or a bad day

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Mighta been able to take out the driver? How much concrete penetration does one of those have, anyways? I'll admit that most of what I know about that sort of weapon is from pop culture- namely Tremors 2, where a shot from one went through multiple buildings, a shrieker, and an engine block.

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Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

Anvildude wrote:
Mighta been able to take out the driver? How much concrete penetration does one of those have, anyways? I'll admit that most of what I know about that sort of weapon is from pop culture- namely Tremors 2, where a shot from one went through multiple buildings, a shrieker, and an engine block.


Yeah, to put it mildly, that's not the case, though it depends on ammunition. A standard steel ball round out of the Barret M107 would have failed to penetrate, but there are a variety of specialist munitions that would have gone through. The big issue with picking off the driver is that you frequently have no idea where the driver is in these improvised armored vehicles. It gets uglier when they're like the 'killdozer' and covered in composite armor.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
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Annandale, VA

 BaronIveagh wrote:
While the minigun isn't all that useful against the tank itself, it is useful when guys with AKs come piling out of it like it's a clown car.


I want to stress in no uncertain terms that the Microgun is a toy, it has no practical use whatsoever, and the idea of it being used by police for anything is somewhere between see-what-sticks marketing and an outright joke.

Edit: The only reason miniguns exist to begin with is because additional barrels allow a higher sustained rate of fire. Given that single-barrel machine guns are already capable of a higher rate of fire than an operator can practically control offhand, the multibarrel arrangement only advantageous if the gun is mounted to something, preferably in an arrangement that allows the shooter to aim. Handheld miniguns are difficult at best to control (note that the guy in the first vid on the previous page is firing blanks at the indoor range, and when he's shooting live ammo outdoors, a quick burst yanks the muzzle sideways in a hurry), impossible to aim, impossible to use from behind cover, and it's impossible for the operator to carry enough ammo to make the fire rate worthwhile. They only exist because it looked really cool in Predator and Terminator 2; the US military roundly rejected the idea of a man-portable minigun even in 5.56 and on a tripod (the XM214).

SWAT teams going up against organized criminals in armored vehicles would be far better off with something more conventional. Preferably something with sights.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 00:36:14


   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 catbarf wrote:

SWAT teams going up against organized criminals in armored vehicles would be far better off with something more conventional. Preferably something with sights.


SWAT's plan with the 'killdozer' involved a Javelin or Hellfire. They weren't quite sure which at the time, before the thing took itself out. US police have been stocking up on military grade hardware since 2001, with several departments stocking armored cars, afvs, and light tanks. A minigun would NOT be out of the question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 02:41:40



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

A Javelin or Hellfire launched by the US military. You find me a police department in the US that's stocking air-to-ground missiles and I'll concede that a minigun in police use is plausible.

Those over-the-top Bearcats and the like are kitted up for breaching on SWAT raids. A minigun is something you typically use for gunning down an indiscriminate area from a helicopter. That's way outside the area of responsibility of police, even in an era of increasing militarization. Police don't use weapons like autocannons, mines, or flamethrowers either; they represent collateral damage threats and aren't suited to their tactical goals.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 02:59:10


   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Anvildude wrote:
Mighta been able to take out the driver? How much concrete penetration does one of those have, anyways? I'll admit that most of what I know about that sort of weapon is from pop culture- namely Tremors 2, where a shot from one went through multiple buildings, a shrieker, and an engine block.


Depends on the buildings. If its normal houses, any type of ammo for .50BMG is not going to stop for anything it might encounter there. Even normal rifle rounds and most intermediate ammo will happily pass through the plywood that most houses are made of without losing much energy, assuming the round is a FMJ and not a hollow or soft point. In which case it'll still go through but start to deform and break apart.

An engine block can stop most rifle rounds, including a normal .50BMG, but it is iffy. Depends on the composition of the engine, where it hits, ammo type, etc...

You shoot an AP .50BMG at the engine block of a civilian vehicle and its going to go through it. Civilian vehicles are not built to stop bullets.

Concrete is about the most pedestrian material you get to where stopping bullets is realistic. When you layer it in combination with hardened high quality steel, you have primitive composite armor that takes advantage of physics to break apart incoming shots. IIRC he basically did a layer of concrete sandwitched between 2 steel plates. Incoming bullets would have to penetrate the first steel plate, then the concrete, then the last steel plate, which would have been impossible for most small arms. Possibly even something like a .50BMG SLAP round, at least for the cockpit. The engine could probably still have been taken out though.

This type of armor is also effective against the heat charges that a missile would use as it breaks apart the molten metal stream. Probably wouldn't have been enough for a hellfire missile, but maybe it could have resisted a javelin.

Of course a simpler solution exists for vehicles like this. Molotov cocktails. Fill some glass bottles with gasoline or motor oil, light a wick, and toss them onto it. Preferably around the air intake or exhaust for the engine. That will disable it in really short order.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 06:26:25


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Seneca Nation of Indians

 catbarf wrote:
A Javelin or Hellfire launched by the US military. You find me a police department in the US that's stocking air-to-ground missiles and I'll concede that a minigun in police use is plausible.


DC and Miami. Oh, and remember, Philly PD did this, dropping two one pound Trenchrite bombs to take out a fortified house.





Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

If you have a source for DC and Miami stocking air-launched anti-tank missiles I'd like to see them. The 1985 Philadelphia bombing was an incident that involved a police department lobbing a pair of FBI-supplied one-pound munitions by hand out of a helicopter by hand like WW1 pilots, with most of the damage coming from the ensuing uncontrolled fires. Hardly an example of a PD being geared up with air support for anti-tank warfare.

This is also completely beside the point, given that you can at least articulate a viable use case for something like a Hellfire; an intermediate-caliber handheld minigun is worthless to begin with.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/12 14:38:00


   
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Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 catbarf wrote:

This is also completely beside the point, given that you can at least articulate a viable use case for something like a Hellfire; an intermediate-caliber handheld minigun is worthless to begin with.


Strikes me as an excellent way to provide suppressive fire. And, apparently, someone agrees with me since the Empty Shell mini gun has begun production. So, unless the US military is buying them, it's law enforcement.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Strikes me as an excellent way to provide suppressive fire.


Well, frankly, that's why you're not in procurement. Unaimed fire from the hip doesn't suppress, and you can't walk it in unless your cyclic rate is low enough and weight high enough to be controllable, and even then it's largely ineffective (see: marching fire). Suppression is unproductive if your muzzle sweeps from recoil prevent fire-and-movement forward of your 3/9. You need a stable position, preferably firing from a bipod, to effectively engage a target at distance and establish your beaten zone to allow maneuver outside it. When people start shooting back, you want to be behind hard cover or at least decent concealment, not standing in the open striking your best Jesse Ventura pose. And you need to keep it up for more than ten seconds without running dry.

It's a stupid idea. It always has been. Every man-portable LMG in modern service has a lower rate of fire than the WW2-era MG42; even the Germans retrofitted the gun after the war to reduce rate of fire and thereby make it more effective. There's absolutely no push whatsoever for minigun rate of fire in infantry use. It just keeps coming back in Good Idea Fairy form because it's so ingrained in pop culture, but it never goes anywhere.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
And, apparently, someone agrees with me since the Empty Shell mini gun has begun production. So, unless the US military is buying them, it's law enforcement.


Nah, they got a rollover contract with Army for a few vehicle-mounted units- certainly not POR without serialized production so selling a few for T&E is the first step. But the key is 'vehicle-mounted', since mounted miniguns have a long and successful history, while man-portable ones do not.

Notably, Empty Shell suspended development in early 2020, and despite planning to resume production in late 2020 still have not done so. So it's still vaporware. And I'll bet dollars to donuts it's not going to law enforcement, let alone in handheld form, unless someone's Class III wants a postie for a toy at taxpayer expense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 05:06:26


   
Made in za
Regular Dakkanaut



South Africa

As I understand it the Border guys on the river have patrol boats armed with belt feds. Maybe they liked Act of Valor and wanted some miniguns too?

That being said anything approaching a useful application for handheld miniguns has not materialized. The best idea, however impractical and impossible the actual design is the "Chinese M1-L1 Triple Pulse assault gattling" from Deep Rising.

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 catbarf wrote:

It's a stupid idea. It always has been. Every man-portable LMG in modern service has a lower rate of fire than the WW2-era MG42; even the Germans retrofitted the gun after the war to reduce rate of fire and thereby make it more effective. There's absolutely no push whatsoever for minigun rate of fire in infantry use. It just keeps coming back in Good Idea Fairy form because it's so ingrained in pop culture, but it never goes anywhere.


According to internet rumor, Dillon Aero being the most recent to have this idea visit them, though actual information thus far has not been forthcoming. They currently sell vehicle mounted M134D's to pretty much all the usual suspects,including private contractors and law enforcement.

https://dillonaero.com/product/convoy-escort-vehicle-cev-2/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:44:52



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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Just watched this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoy14h6K5TY

Even in my wider ignorance, this seems an awful design. But can you suggest a worse shooter?

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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Even in my wider ignorance, this seems an awful design. But can you suggest a worse shooter?


The L. Dolne à Liege 'Apache Revolver' in 7mm. Supposedly the British had a similar weapon in WW2 for commandos in 9mm, but no information has ever been released to the public as far as I know beyond it's existence.




How it worked, in theory.



The reality was though.. it really didn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 23:09:33



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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Like a Swiss Army knife, but other than knuckle dusters a bit crap at its job?


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Maine

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just watched this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoy14h6K5TY

Even in my wider ignorance, this seems an awful design. But can you suggest a worse shooter?


Challenge accepted!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYf1SXBY_E4

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 Insurgency Walker wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just watched this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoy14h6K5TY

Even in my wider ignorance, this seems an awful design. But can you suggest a worse shooter?


Challenge accepted!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYf1SXBY_E4


I’ve got Nerf guns deadlier than that pile of crap!!! Could the misfires be down to the spring being knackered?

In other news. I’m currently watching Robocop in HD. And the scene at the petrol station (garage?) has me puzzled.

When Emil is threatening the attendant with his (I think) Uzi, you can clearly see a round through what I assume to be the ejection port, at a rather jaunty more or less 20ish degree angle.

Is that normal for that shooter, or is it unique to prop/blank fire versions?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Like a Swiss Army knife, but other than knuckle dusters a bit crap at its job?



My cousin would beat you for attributing this nonsense with a victorinox.. he works there



Sword pistols, respectively pistol swords are probably a similar stupid thing.

Axe pistols on the other hand.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 18:48:31


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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He can beat me all he wants, provided he calls me cupcake during!

I can see the theory behind it. As weapons go, it’s compact and at least theoretically versatile - if not ultimately practical.

Certainly to my ignorant eyes the worst offender is the teensy little blade. It might pop a pimple or two (boy…..it might pop a pimple or two!), but unless you’re skilled/knowledgeable/both, it seems unlikely to do proper damage (would still hurt though. I stabbed my self in the groin with a GW scalpel once. Did little damage, still hurt)

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He can beat me all he wants, provided he calls me cupcake during!

I can see the theory behind it. As weapons go, it’s compact and at least theoretically versatile - if not ultimately practical.

Certainly to my ignorant eyes the worst offender is the teensy little blade. It might pop a pimple or two (boy…..it might pop a pimple or two!), but unless you’re skilled/knowledgeable/both, it seems unlikely to do proper damage (would still hurt though. I stabbed my self in the groin with a GW scalpel once. Did little damage, still hurt)


Counterpoint on that theory.... you could just hand them a propper pistol, nimrod, or whatever else you want to give your commandos AND a bajonett... which still would take up only marginally more space and guaranteed functions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 19:35:00


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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All well out my realm of expertise, given I’m an avowed wuss!

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Seneca Nation of Indians

Not Online!!! wrote:

Counterpoint on that theory.... you could just hand them a propper pistol, nimrod, or whatever else you want to give your commandos AND a bajonett... which still would take up only marginally more space and guaranteed functions.


Or, even a Welrod and an F-S.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In other news. I’m currently watching Robocop in HD. And the scene at the petrol station (garage?) has me puzzled.

When Emil is threatening the attendant with his (I think) Uzi, you can clearly see a round through what I assume to be the ejection port, at a rather jaunty more or less 20ish degree angle.

Is that normal for that shooter, or is it unique to prop/blank fire versions?


It's a Mac-10, but like an Uzi it fires from an open bolt. That means in the ready to fire position, the bolt is back and the ejection port open. Pulling the trigger drops the bolt forward and fires in one action. The rounds are canted upwards in the magazine so they can ride up the feed ramp and into the barrel.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 04:05:26


   
 
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