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I was wondering how well thirty man units of Empire kniggits works. Something like this army: http://hoodlinghole.blogspot.com/2012/06/future-of-empire.html

Would a General on Gryphon synergize well, or would the low number of targets be a bigger factor than similar mobility?

What kind of magic could work? Speed of light seems it would help.

Or am I crazy for wanting hoards of kniggits? Cant be too bad if that blogger has three units of forty.

Well, The Hoodling is known for his fondness of cavalry but the fact that you rarely see it on the table shows that he's perhaps taking the idea to an extreme. Most people won't even have 40 cavalry models, let alone 120, so we're talking not about degrees but orders of magnitude different.

40 Knights gives you +3 SCR and can break SF, which is the major downfall for cavalry and other high-cost, low rank units. It also gives you 30 attacks, usually at high strength, sometimes at S5 ASL, or at the still decent S4 (ICK, RG). With all the usually problematic bases covered, it can work exceedingly well. I'd ram them right into a White Lion, CW, GG or other horde, a HPA or a couple of Hydras, although I might avoid mindrazored stuff.

Having said this, a single such unit costs 900 points before we talk about banners and support, so normally people will go for something more sensible, especially in the light of a limited model collection.

As to magic, everything can work just fine. Death requires being close, horses get you there. Fire kills skirmishers, is ideal against T3. Shadow always works, Light and Life are brilliant, Beasts is good for cavalry lists, Heavens prevents shooting and let's 1+ AS models re-roll 1's...you get the gist.

Two more benefits just came to my mind: Knights are faster than infantry, so can often avoid impact hits, and they are not affected by stomps.

Horde of Empire Knights, with great weapons and warrior priest is awesome.
690 points gives you a unit of 30 with full command. You could use that as your only core choice in a 2400-2500 point game without cutting into any of your other choices (since you must spend 600-625 on core anyway).
I'd then add in a warrior preist (mount, barding, enchanted shield, and stubborn crown).
And that's your death star.
~30 S5 attacks (or +90 points for S6), that re-roll to hit in the first round of combat.
Verses T3 with 5+ or worse armor, you're looking at ~20 wounds or so.
You want lore of light, and hope for the -1 to be hit.
If you want a magic banner, I'd take the ranger banner (gives the unit strider).

Regardless of options, always take great weapons. Lances are too easy to bog down. Always take stubborn crown. You shouldn't be losing combat, but you can ill-afford a round of wiffing on a ~900 point death star.

-Matt

I agree that the combination you outline can work well but I disagree with the assessment that it is the only possible one. First of all, a horde of knights addresses the problem of getting stuck on steadfast blocks by considerably increasing the number kills and by bringing its own ranks into the equation. That means this unit is much less likely to get stuck in combat, and therefore does not need Great Weapons, worse armour and ASL to make up for it. One should expect such a unit to win and break almost every unit that is about 50 strong. Yes, Slaves are a problem, we do not need to discuss that in greater detail but that has nothing to do with the Knights.

An alternative to the Crown, especially in games as large as The Hoodling's, RG are a nifty alternative or rather an additional unit to the Crown-led one because of innate stubborn, decent flank protectors even in smaller numbers and they can double up as flankers should a target prove exceptionally hard to shift.

In addition to the Knights, there are, in horde formation, also 10 S3 attacks from the horses. While no-one will expect miracles from the numbers alone, the term "killer horse" has wiggled its way into Empire players' folklore long ago, and that can be the clincher when you're fighting unbuffed core-class infantry.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
I agree that the combination you outline can work well but I disagree with the assessment that it is the only possible one. First of all, a horde of knights addresses the problem of getting stuck on steadfast blocks by considerably increasing the number kills and by bringing its own ranks into the equation. That means this unit is much less likely to get stuck in combat, and therefore does not need Great Weapons, worse armour and ASL to make up for it. One should expect such a unit to win and break almost every unit that is about 50 strong. Yes, Slaves are a problem, we do not need to discuss that in greater detail but that has nothing to do with the Knights.

An alternative to the Crown, especially in games as large as The Hoodling's, RG are a nifty alternative or rather an additional unit to the Crown-led one because of innate stubborn, decent flank protectors even in smaller numbers and they can double up as flankers should a target prove exceptionally hard to shift.

In addition to the Knights, there are, in horde formation, also 10 S3 attacks from the horses. While no-one will expect miracles from the numbers alone, the term "killer horse" has wiggled its way into Empire players' folklore long ago, and that can be the clincher when you're fighting unbuffed core-class infantry.

The problem of counting on breaking steadfast on the charge is that it doesn't happen all that often. A block of 30 swordsmen, 5 wide, on average will stop the knights. Pretty much anything 30-35 strong ranked up 5 wide will halt the knights, even if they don't kill a single thing. Having a horde of S3 attacks just doesn't cut it. Round 2 would see the knights with 24 S3 attacks (instead of 18 S5 and 6 S3). You might be able to get away with lances on innercircle with razor banner, S4 save -2 might let you grind out after the charge.

The crown is needed for Core knights. RG knights are great, but a specials and that's another whole problem. An equal sized unit of RG is ~150 more (or 60 more then inner circle). Given that you're going to include a warrior priest for the re-rolls, making the core choice stubborn for 35 more is a savings of 25-115 points.

The 10 S3 attacks were factored into the ~20 kills I quoted.

I've run the knight horde, and great weapons are so much better it isn't even funny. It pairs very well with lore of light. WS10 Init10 (still ASL) gives you more hits. Time Warp gives you +1 attack and makes you strike on your init. Pha's protection takes care of survivability.

-Matt

Wow, I would NEVER run a unit of 30 empire knights into a horde of White lions. Simply stated, the knights would lose, WL would probably kill around 12 and the knights+horses on the charge would kill around 10. Thats assuming that all of the living knights would get to attack... seems unlikely due to the huge size of the knights frontage compared to the WL's. If a warrior priest is in the unit it makes it WAY better, but it also makes him a high priority target.

Idk, I think it would be too large of a unit to make work effectively in many situations... but i'd try it. Matt's right about using the core tax up on a fast unit that has a bit of punch... hard to say that its better than infantry in my mind.

war wrote:
Wow, I would NEVER run a unit of 30 empire knights into a horde of White lions. Simply stated, the knights would lose, WL would probably kill around 12 and the knights+horses on the charge would kill around 10. Thats assuming that all of the living knights would get to attack... seems unlikely due to the huge size of the knights frontage compared to the WL's. If a warrior priest is in the unit it makes it WAY better, but it also makes him a high priority target.

Idk, I think it would be too large of a unit to make work effectively in many situations... but i'd try it. Matt's right about using the core tax up on a fast unit that has a bit of punch... hard to say that its better than infantry in my mind.

I agree with this guy! My 30 WL's have run into a similar situation before, and killed almost 20 knights.

The all-mounted empire force works surprisingly well, in my experience. What I ran was something along the lines of lvl4 heavens on wagon, GM with runefang and tricksters, priest, bsb and captasus (tooled up for hunting), 30 GW knights (agree with Matt, GW are far better than lances), pistoliers/outriders for chaff, reiksguard on flanks to try and tie up large low-strength blocks, and the steam tank just to be awesome. Its the surprise on opponents faces when you dont unpack a single cannon, plus you dont hsve to spend 10 minutes setting up haldberds...

HawaiiMatt wrote:

The problem of counting on breaking steadfast on the charge is that it doesn't happen all that often. A block of 30 swordsmen, 5 wide, on average will stop the knights. Pretty much anything 30-35 strong ranked up 5 wide will halt the knights, even if they don't kill a single thing. Having a horde of S3 attacks just doesn't cut it. Round 2 would see the knights with 24 S3 attacks (instead of 18 S5 and 6 S3). You might be able to get away with lances on innercircle with razor banner, S4 save -2 might let you grind out after the charge.

Much of that is true, and yet the statement stands: With ranks of your own, you can break ranks. You make the call how often that might happen and how likely it is in your meta, and I readily admit that those 50 strong units I've mentioned are problematic in bus. I usually see units of this size in horde though of course they could easily reform once they see the knights.

Secondly, we aren't talking about simple S3 vanilla Knights exclusively. Two out of three knight entries sport S4 even before we look at DGK, so I'm surprised that you're jumping at the weakest version. For them, GW work fine, as I have pointed out. Against units likely to be 50 strong, I've found S4 to be plenty - and quantity has a quality of its own. Lastly, even if you do not break those Swordsmen or similar on the charge, you're more likely to get their points than vice versa. Before you jump on it again, I do realize that there's other stuff for the remainder of the points but this is after all the principle of deathstars. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

The crown is needed for Core knights. RG knights are great, but a specials and that's another whole problem. An equal sized unit of RG is ~150 more (or 60 more then inner circle). Given that you're going to include a warrior priest for the re-rolls, making the core choice stubborn for 35 more is a savings of 25-115 points.

The Crown is needed if you expect to lose, which in our examples up to now was not the case. Can they lose? Of course, but this thread is more than a bit about thinking outside of the box - just in case the mention of 120 Knights and 450 infantry was too weak a message, so I'm a bit adverse to faceless cookie cutter solutions. If the OP was interested in that, we should just send him over to Warhammer-Empire.

RG being special is in no way a problem. All kinds of stuff is special, and has been since they invented the game, and it wasn't the problem you make it out to be. I'm always buying special stuff in almost all armies. 30 core Knights cover your core requirement for a long time. 150 points in 5k games isn't an issue, the bearer of the Crown is just a simple human who can and will die, whereas an ability doesn't, there is only one Crown, so how are you making the other units work? How are you even making anything else work in normal games with just one Crown?

Lastly, I proposed different setups for RG. You CAN run them at the same unit size - or you could run smaller units as flank protectors, so those 150 points more are just a number that may or may not be relevant.

The 10 S3 attacks were factored into the ~20 kills I quoted.

I only saw the 30 S5 attacks at the start of your calculation and thought the result related to them but then again I didn't check your math. My fault.

I've run the knight horde, and great weapons are so much better it isn't even funny. It pairs very well with lore of light.

I've run knights in all kinds of shades and formations, and these statements are not true. That one pip of armour makes a huge difference in many situations and goes some way to neuter any additional kills. ASL is not always but often an underappreciated drawback, and goes another piece of the way to neutering increased strength when you lose attacks before you can strike, round after round. Lore of Light doesn't pair well with GW at all: You only get half the mileage out of SoL for the same PD investment, and going to Ini 3 with a number 6 spell isn't anything to talk about.

Lancers however can be made to hit first rather easily against anyone not Elves, and even them. Pha's, Shem's, Banishment et al work just the same with them as with any other army. If we're counting on magic, then Death can remove the General or BSB, or reduce T and make steadfast a non-issue, so of course you can break it, Shadow can make you hit better at lower costs or make you S8, Heaven's messes with your opponent's movement phase, which coupled with the Knights' mobility is often of incredible tactical use, Beasts has at least Wyssans at reduced cost, again something that makes GW less essential and when you're raising your Deathstar's models with Life...okay, Fire is the same utilitarian thing and Metal perhaps not so useful but that's about it.

Just make sure when you add heroes they are of the same type. I.e., mounted on a horse and not a monstrous cavalry. Or they don't get a LoS.

war wrote:
Wow, I would NEVER run a unit of 30 empire knights into a horde of White lions. Simply stated, the knights would lose, WL would probably kill around 12 and the knights+horses on the charge would kill around 10. Thats assuming that all of the living knights would get to attack... seems unlikely due to the huge size of the knights frontage compared to the WL's. If a warrior priest is in the unit it makes it WAY better, but it also makes him a high priority target.

Well, first of all we have to remember that nearly everything will lose against a horde of WL, be it infantry or cavalry. This unit of knights, while obviously more expensive, has much better chances than almost everything else that isn't completely ridiculous. The WL kill 11, not 12 knights, and the latter about 10 without a Warrior Priest/hatred. Given the charge, that's a draw. With a Priest - something that even the critics of the knight horde assume will be there regardless - the Knights actually win by 3-4.

Having said that, you are right, White Lions are stubborn, so they are unlikely to run, and they probably win the second round. Of course one cannot count on it but a well-timed prayer could see the Knights through. That's one of the reasons the Priest is there after all.

Maybe my math is wrong on that one. I assumed both units had champs so WL's were 31 attacks, 23.25 hits, 5.8125 picked up from ASF for a total of 29.0 hits. 24.21 wounds so 12 get through the 4+ save that remains from S6 attacks. The remaining knights + horses get 9.5 wounds on the WL's. I wasn't sure if all of the knights could fit into base to base, so I gave the knights benefit of the doubt and said they could all attack.

I don't remember the last time i've seen non-horde WL's. I wonder how the numbers would work out. The problem with that is that you would only have 6 knights in base to base. Even so, the numbers actually work out in the knights favor for round 1. Something like 4 dead knights vs. 8 dead WL's. Of course after round 1 the knights will only be killing 3 WL per turn while the WL's will continue to kill 4 knights/turn until they're down to less than 2 ranks.

I'll stick with killing WL's with magic. Seems like an awful lot of points sunk into something like that.

war wrote:
Maybe my math is wrong on that one. I assumed both units had champs so WL's were 31 attacks, 23.25 hits, 5.8125 picked up from ASF for a total of 29.0 hits. 24.21 wounds so 12 get through the 4+ save that remains from S6 attacks. The remaining knights + horses get 9.5 wounds on the WL's. I wasn't sure if all of the knights could fit into base to base, so I gave the knights benefit of the doubt and said they could all attack.

I don't remember the last time i've seen non-horde WL's. I wonder how the numbers would work out. The problem with that is that you would only have 6 knights in base to base. Even so, the numbers actually work out in the knights favor for round 1. Something like 4 dead knights vs. 8 dead WL's. Of course after round 1 the knights will only be killing 3 WL per turn while the WL's will continue to kill 4 knights/turn until they're down to less than 2 ranks.

I'll stick with killing WL's with magic. Seems like an awful lot of points sunk into something like that.

You math is off on the hits.
31 attacks on a 3+ is 20.66 hits (11.33 misses), re-rolls on the misses gives you another 6.88 hits for ~27 hits. 2+ to wound = 22-23 wounds, 11 to 12 kills (closer to 11).
10 wide whitelions are 200mm.
8 cav are 200mm, so the last two cav go corner to corner making everyone touch.

That said, if you want a mounted deathstar, use 18 demigryph knights. With 3 wounds each, the can absorb the hits far better and deal back plenty of death. Vs whitelions they'll dish out ~19 wounds on the charge while taking only 11 in response. Sure it's 1000 points vs ~450, but overwhelming force and moving on to the next target is how death stars win.

-Matt

Your right, it looks like I do have the hits wrong. Always the trouble with doing things back-of-the-napkin.

18 demigryph knights would be a terrifying unit. I think i'd throw mindrazered spearelves in horde formation against them.... and thats about all I can think of that would do well against them.

Maybe a full unit of hexwraiths... I'll have to think about that one.
Troll horde puking? probably still take far too much damage to be effective...

war wrote:
Your right, it looks like I do have the hits wrong. Always the trouble with doing things back-of-the-napkin.

18 demigryph knights would be a terrifying unit. I think i'd throw mindrazered spearelves in horde formation against them.... and thats about all I can think of that would do well against them.

Maybe a full unit of hexwraiths... I'll have to think about that one.
Troll horde puking? probably still take far too much damage to be effective...

Demi-gryph star is over 1000 points. Of course it's tough to kill. Anything ethereal is perfect, as any attached characters are on the outer corners due to odd base size. Or just redirect/feed it cheap chaff and go for the rest of the army (hopefully the rest of the army isn't 35 knights and steam tank).

-Matt

Would Pistoliers synergize well with the plan? Redirectors that can keep up with the army could be helpful.

(Being new to Fantasy, what makes pistoliers and outriders different? They seem to both be redirectors that can shoot)

Wizard on a pegusus, or on a horse in one of the units?

Pistoliers can move and shoot, and its 90 for five, so they are nice and cheap. Downside is that with two pistols, and over 6" for long range, youll be needing 6s to hit most of the time. Outriders cant move and shoot, but vanguard can negate that need to an extent. Also, with bs4, its 5s to hit at long range, and a minimum squad puts out 15 shots.
Both are cheap, but they are for different things. I wouldnt try to use outriders as redirectors, as they then lose their shooting, but they can clear out chaff quite well...

Actually pistoliers generally don't hit on 6's in my experience. Unless they changed a LOT in the new book about them (I admit my empire army has not been updated since the new book) They should have 2 rules that help them out a lot.

1. Quick to fire makes them not have a -1 to shoot from moving

2. Fast cav rule gives them the ability to shoot even after marching.


At one point they also had a way of negating the long range rule... but I believe that is long gone. Generally they tend to hit on 5+ and black powder rule gives it a -2 total armor reduction.

bs3, so 4s at best, -1 for multiple shots ( though you can choose to fire 1 shot and not suffer this), -1 for long range if over 6" away, and since the sweet spot for redirectors is 7-9" away, youl be at long range.
4+(-1)+(-1) = 6s to hit...

I've taken 30 knights before (full unit was a little bigger thanks to the characters I had in there). Go for great weapons and keep them regular knights and it's a pretty competitive choice, though I'm hesitant to tell people to go for it because a few issues.

First up - it might be the best deathstar the Empire have, but it will get shredded by the serious deathstars out there (hordes of White Lions or Chaos Chosen, for instance). If you sink most of your points into a massive block of knights and you face up against another deathstar, you probably won't have the units needed to delay or divert that deathstar from chomping through your knights.

Second up - even against regular units it's fairly vulnerable if the enemy has a decent strength. Even dwarves with GWs will make a mess of your troops. In the current game cavalry need to pick their fights carefully, ideally hitting the flank, but a massive block of knights loses the mobility to do that.

Third up - when it does work it's because the enemy lacks high strength weapons, or magic that ignores armour. This means that games tend to be decided more by match up than by the skill of the players, which gets pretty boring pretty quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Having said that, you are right, White Lions are stubborn, so they are unlikely to run, and they probably win the second round. Of course one cannot count on it but a well-timed prayer could see the Knights through. That's one of the reasons the Priest is there after all.

There's basically zero chance that priest will be there in round 2, if the White Lion player is half smart.

This isn't a complete list, but what do you think? (when I say "stuff" as equipment, give some advice on what stuff to take)

Level 4 Wizard - Heavens - barded horse, stuff

Level 1 Wizard - Beasts - barded horse (could he be replaced by ring of volan)

Warrior Priest - full plate, barded horse, shield (in the knight unit)

Captain - battle standard - barded horse, stuff (in the knight unit, whats a good banner?)

Captain - pegusus, stuff

30 Inner Circle Knights - full command, steel banner (lances or great weapons?)

3 Demigryphs (flankers)

3 Demigryphs (flankers)

Steam Tank (hold things until the knights arrive)

Steam Tank (hold things until the knights arrive)

 japehlio wrote:
bs3, so 4s at best, -1 for multiple shots ( though you can choose to fire 1 shot and not suffer this), -1 for long range if over 6" away, and since the sweet spot for redirectors is 7-9" away, youl be at long range.
4+(-1)+(-1) = 6s to hit...

Pistoliers hit on 5s at close range, unless you can't get within 6". And to be perfectly honest, if you can't get vanguarding fast cavalry with M8 into close range then it's probably time to pack your models up and go home.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Osyr wrote:
This isn't a complete list, but what do you think? (when I say "stuff" as equipment, give some advice on what stuff to take)

Level 4 Wizard - Heavens - barded horse, stuff

Level 1 Wizard - Beasts - barded horse (could he be replaced by ring of volan)

Warrior Priest - full plate, barded horse, shield (in the knight unit)

Captain - battle standard - barded horse, stuff (in the knight unit, whats a good banner?)

Captain - pegusus, stuff

30 Inner Circle Knights - full command, steel banner (lances or great weapons?)

3 Demigryphs (flankers)

3 Demigryphs (flankers)

Steam Tank (hold things until the knights arrive)

Steam Tank (hold things until the knights arrive)

In terms of power its a really strong list. Well, any list with multiple demigryphs and multiple steam tanks is always going to be pretty strong. With all those knights there is a nice synergy bonus, as with all Knight armies with the current Empire book - everything has a high armour save so there's no good target for any low strength unit the enemy has.

Might not win you any friends, though. Especially with the double steam tank - that just scream red flag to anyone even slightly concerned about balanced lists.

I'd probably break the groups of knights into 3 groups of 10. Instead of one big block of points you'd have three more mobile units that can deny points and flank enemy units and generally make a nuisance of the themselves. If your opponent does manage to trap and grind one of the units down then he's still only scored 200 points, hardly game winning.

And demigryphs don't actually work that well as flankers - because they don't cancel the rank bonus. Better to use 10 strong units of knights for that role.

 sebster wrote:
I've taken 30 knights before (full unit was a little bigger thanks to the characters I had in there). Go for great weapons and keep them regular knights and it's a pretty competitive choice, though I'm hesitant to tell people to go for it because a few issues.

I am still not convinced that this is the best or the only possible way to go about it. GW are admittedly nice to have on later round but they do have issues too. Since you have identified high-strength units as the greatest danger, a 1+ armour goes some way to address this, or, put differently, having only a 2+ AS won't help with this particular problem.

Secondly, while Ini 3 is nothing to write home about, there's at least the potential to be boosted. ASL otoh is very, very difficult to negate. Going first is really important, not against a big block of Gobbos but against Elites that are unlikely to have much more than 30 models (less with multiwounders). Those White Lions are not least so good because they go first and possibly take away attacks. GW Dwarfs or Grave Guard are pretty much guaranteed to lose attacks in many situations even without SoL, and against all those S3, T3, little armour tarpits S4 is good enough. What I would probably not do is regular Knights with lances.

First up - it might be the best deathstar the Empire have, but it will get shredded by the serious deathstars out there (hordes of White Lions or Chaos Chosen, for instance). If you sink most of your points into a massive block of knights and you face up against another deathstar, you probably won't have the units needed to delay or divert that deathstar from chomping through your knights.

Dunno. I've fielded large GS units before. With a BSB or WP, that's easily 600 points, the same as the Knight unit, and I've usually had enough left for some archers & Pistoliers, or a Helblaster - I find the latter helps a lot to support whatever you've got to deal with other Deathstars. After all, you'd spend those 600 points on core regardless.

Second up - even against regular units it's fairly vulnerable if the enemy has a decent strength. Even dwarves with GWs will make a mess of your troops. In the current game cavalry need to pick their fights carefully, ideally hitting the flank, but a massive block of knights loses the mobility to do that.

The whole point of such a large unit of Knights is that it becomes a main line unit. Yes, 30 Knights are more expensive than 30, 35 Warriors or Dwarfs but they actually do get more for the additional points, namely a save - very few GW troops have one against GW's - and better speed. Okay, 10 wide cav is harder to maneouver than 5 wide but if that was a serious drawback, people could not field Marauder hordes or DGK.

You are quite right that one would need to pick the fights carefully but again this goes for nearly every Empire unit. I don't run a buff cart or my Halberdiers just straight ahead into the next best enemy unit.

When it comes to the earlier example of 30 Swordsmen or similar tarpitting the Knights forever, that isn't entirely true either. Knights can, if they must, reform into a bus like every other unit. They are likely to not only get the charge but kill a couple of models, and unlikely to lose the same or a higher number to basic infantry. Even with no kills, they would win by 1 and the Swordsmen would not be steadfast, so this does address the usual problem heavy cavalry has.

There's basically zero chance that priest will be there in round 2, if the White Lion player is half smart.

You need to pick your opponents more carefully! ;-)

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
I am still not convinced that this is the best or the only possible way to go about it. GW are admittedly nice to have on later round but they do have issues too. Since you have identified high-strength units as the greatest danger, a 1+ armour goes some way to address this, or, put differently, having only a 2+ AS won't help with this particular problem.

It's more the price, to be honest. Upgrading to IC is normally a fairly trivial expense, but when you've got 30 guys it's a fairly significant cost. But if you keep them normal knights then after the first turn you're Str 3, and no horde unit ever scared anyone with Str 3 attacks. So instead you go to the great weapons.

What I would probably not do is regular Knights with lances.

Exactly. If you want to spend the points on the upgrade, then go with regular knights with lances, Str 4 is good enough, and the 1+ armour save means that even if you don't wipe them off the table, they probably won't do that much back.

But, from my playing around with this idea, I found I was much happier with lists where I hadn't sunk 90 or more points into the IC upgrade.

Dunno. I've fielded large GS units before. With a BSB or WP, that's easily 600 points, the same as the Knight unit, and I've usually had enough left for some archers & Pistoliers, or a Helblaster - I find the latter helps a lot to support whatever you've got to deal with other Deathstars. After all, you'd spend those 600 points on core regardless.

Sure, but the first issue is the sheer size of the knight block. You have a broader front and deeper flanks than the same points in greatswords., and that means you need better flank protection. And the knight block is such a specialised thing that when I ran it I find I ended up needing supporting blocks of infantry to occupy the stuff my knights couldn't dare mess with. Whereas with a greatsword block you can normally just drop one of the main infantry blocks a be confident your big greatsword block will do the same job, only killier, the knights don't quite work that way in my experience.

I certainly agree that a helblaster excels in making otherwise scary units very managable.

The whole point of such a large unit of Knights is that it becomes a main line unit. Yes, 30 Knights are more expensive than 30, 35 Warriors or Dwarfs but they actually do get more for the additional points, namely a save - very few GW troops have one against GW's - and better speed. Okay, 10 wide cav is harder to maneouver than 5 wide but if that was a serious drawback, people could not field Marauder hordes or DGK.

Yeah, but the reality is that spending more points on the unit doesn't just turn it into a standard mainline unit. Every model costs 21 or 24 points, and has hitting power that's nothing like what genuinely elite troops pack. You're basically paying for that 1+ or 2+ save and that means you better make sure that save really delivers for you.

You are quite right that one would need to pick the fights carefully but again this goes for nearly every Empire unit. I don't run a buff cart or my Halberdiers just straight ahead into the next best enemy unit.

Absolutely. But the point is that this is even more true when it comes to big units of knights.

When it comes to the earlier example of 30 Swordsmen or similar tarpitting the Knights forever, that isn't entirely true either. Knights can, if they must, reform into a bus like every other unit. They are likely to not only get the charge but kill a couple of models, and unlikely to lose the same or a higher number to basic infantry. Even with no kills, they would win by 1 and the Swordsmen would not be steadfast, so this does address the usual problem heavy cavalry has.

Picking out units like that 30 strong block of swordsmen is absolutely what that mega block of knights is for. It packs enough of a punch that it'll slice away steadfast in a single turn, and it'll suffer almost no wound in retaliation because the lowly Str 3 of the swordsmen will be unlikely to get through your armour. You route them, run them down, and get the added bonus of your Warrior Priest being loaded up to confer hatred on a new enemy with your next charge.

Crumping two or even three enemy units like that in a game is mission accomplished for the mega knight unit. The problem comes when the enemy has a deathstar of his own - in my experience I've found it really hard to avoid that unit for the reasons given above, and even harder to beat it in combat. The result is games where my knight unit can pick off and slaughter his medium sized units, or games where my knight unit was crumped by his deathstar - games decided by match up, not by player skill.

As such, I gave this a miss after a few games. I don't know, other people may have different experiences, all I can tell you is what happened when I played with the idea.

You need to pick your opponents more carefully! ;-)

Some good advice here. I've mentioned before I've been tempted to run all knight armies (due to the great models from fireforge at a bargain price) and because I'm fed up of infantry slogging across the board. With knights, you can move them into position for flank attacks.

Well, the Steam Tanks were going to be the flank protection. Their tough and fast, which should allow them to hold up units that could flank the Knights, or grind units until the Knights get there.
The Demigryphs are there for the same role really. (The tanks allow me to do a nice conversion, since this is a Tilean themed army the tanks could be Davinci's tank.)

Does the knight unit even need the battle standard though? It shouldn't be losing combat, the rest of the army being there to tie up the enemy might need it more.
If morale isn't a problem, then I don't have to promote that Warrior Priest into Arch Lector to be a general. (save some points)

What items for the Wizard? I was thinking of the item that switches stats and combat items, then putting him in the Knights to be safe. Or is that just crazy?

(Similar thing happened to me Do_I_Not_Like_That, I saw the nice plastic Men at Arms that Perry Miniatures makes and immediatly HAD to try this idea)

Hrm, this thread leads me to wonder: Might a Wolf Rider Horde be viable too? Sorry if this is seen as hijacking, but the idea is rather similar.

Consider: 8 Wolf Rider Big Bosses (including BSB) cost, before any other Equipment / Standards, 376pts. This allows one to have the entire Front Rank be heroes, as well as have a BSB in Rank 2 (which means it benefits from BSB still, but cannot be struck in the first round of combat so long as no characters died on the way). If one's extra concerned, put a Goblin Warboss (also on Wolf) in the front rank so as to make two characters need to die for the BSB to move up.

40 Wolves w/ Shields and Spears isn't that expensive either, only about 450 points with full command. The inclusion of characters in the front rank also means that this is technically 48 (or 49) strong, so it'll need to lose some 14 (or 15) models before its first rank drops.

One one hand, it sacrifices a lot of the Knights' durability. Instead of a 1+ save, you're looking at 4+. You can very easily put in something like an Ironcurse Amulet and MR (which increases durability against most War Machines and Magic), but it's still a 4+ base save meaning Thunderers / Handgunners will mulch them up.

But on the other? Front rank hits with (assuming all BB's) 27 S5 or S6 attacks (depending on if you take GW's), followed by 24 S4 ones and 10 S3. The lack of rerolls is a bit depressing, but if one wanted they could sort-of counteract such by making sure their BSB is equipped with a Spider Banner.

Minimal price for 40 + Full Command + 8 Big Bosses + BSB + Spears + LA + Shields = 874. It'd be a tight fit in a 2K point game, but at 2.25K or more it'd be readily possible to fit in some casters, special banners, MR / Ironcurse, etcetera. Oh, yes, that reminds me: Even if it cannot flank, Sneaky Stabbin' offers Armor Piercing! Thus the debate here would be whether to take Spider Banner (for Poison), or Banner of Eternal Flame (for Flaming), as this unit could also hunt down things like Ogres / Monsters reasonably effectively (due to sheer number of attacks and the enemy losing out on Stomp).

At all viable?

That's a pretty good idea Minsc. (I wouldn't consider it thread hijacking)
Can Orcs n Gobs take lore of beasts? Plus 3 strength and attacks on the Big Bosses would be neat, but I don't think they have the lore.

Minsc wrote:
Hrm, this thread leads me to wonder: Might a Wolf Rider Horde be viable too? Sorry if this is seen as hijacking, but the idea is rather similar.

Consider: 8 Wolf Rider Big Bosses (including BSB) cost, before any other Equipment / Standards, 376pts. This allows one to have the entire Front Rank be heroes, as well as have a BSB in Rank 2 (which means it benefits from BSB still, but cannot be struck in the first round of combat so long as no characters died on the way). If one's extra concerned, put a Goblin Warboss (also on Wolf) in the front rank so as to make two characters need to die for the BSB to move up.

40 Wolves w/ Shields and Spears isn't that expensive either, only about 450 points with full command. The inclusion of characters in the front rank also means that this is technically 48 (or 49) strong, so it'll need to lose some 14 (or 15) models before its first rank drops.

One one hand, it sacrifices a lot of the Knights' durability. Instead of a 1+ save, you're looking at 4+. You can very easily put in something like an Ironcurse Amulet and MR (which increases durability against most War Machines and Magic), but it's still a 4+ base save meaning Thunderers / Handgunners will mulch them up.

But on the other? Front rank hits with (assuming all BB's) 27 S5 or S6 attacks (depending on if you take GW's), followed by 24 S4 ones and 10 S3. The lack of rerolls is a bit depressing, but if one wanted they could sort-of counteract such by making sure their BSB is equipped with a Spider Banner.

Minimal price for 40 + Full Command + 8 Big Bosses + BSB + Spears + LA + Shields = 874. It'd be a tight fit in a 2K point game, but at 2.25K or more it'd be readily possible to fit in some casters, special banners, MR / Ironcurse, etcetera. Oh, yes, that reminds me: Even if it cannot flank, Sneaky Stabbin' offers Armor Piercing! Thus the debate here would be whether to take Spider Banner (for Poison), or Banner of Eternal Flame (for Flaming), as this unit could also hunt down things like Ogres / Monsters reasonably effectively (due to sheer number of attacks and the enemy losing out on Stomp).

At all viable?

That's possible. I'd toss in the spider banner, so all those attacks pick up poison!
How about this:
935 Points:
4x Goblin Big Bosses on Gigantic Spider (50mm square), light armor, shield, spear
1 Goblin Big Boss BSB on Gigantic Spider, light armor, shield, Spear
30 Spider Riders, full command.

Once in combat, the 4 big bosses fill the front rank (with unit champ and standard up front) and the musician and BSB are in the 2nd rank.
Since the BSB is on a monstrous mount, he can fight with his full 3 attack.
Gigantic Spiders give +2 to armor save, so the characters up front are all T4 3+ armor and 3 wounds each.

The unit dishes out:
15 S5 attacks (poison on 6+), 21 S4 poison (6+), 12 S4 poison (5+) and 2 S3 poison (5+), then 4 S4 stomps. All the heroes are init 3, all the spiders are init 4.
Of course, all those characters are cannon bait since you lack a look out.

515 points of heroes, 420 points of core. For 30 points, any goblin big boss gets upgraded to warboss, depending on how you need to split you lord/hero choices.
Hell, you can even squeeze in a Wizard Lord on that Arachnarok, and a warboss on foot (general) in a 2200 point game. That gives you a pretty cool spider theme.

Osyr wrote:That's a pretty good idea Minsc. (I wouldn't consider it thread hijacking)
Can Orcs n Gobs take lore of beasts? Plus 3 strength and attacks on the Big Bosses would be neat, but I don't think they have the lore.

You technically can, but it's unreliable. You have to take a Wizarding Hat and hope for Lore of Beasts on a 1D8. Your most reliable buff / debuff spells will be:
The Hand of Gork: Basically lets you relocate & rotate the unit 3d6" or 5d6". Useful for bouncing the unit into an enemy's flank / rear, especially the 5D6 version (which averages 15"-20", versus 9"-12").
Sneaky Stabbin': Normally just Armor Piercing, though casting on a 6+ is rather nice. If you hit a flank or rear, though, you get both rerolls to Hit and to Wound. Can possibly be synergized very well with Hand... but its 12" range means it'l generally be used on front charges instead of rear or flank.
Gift of the Spider God: Poison. If the unit already has Poisoned Attacks special rule, Poison upgrades to 5+ (which, considering how To Hit rolls work in combat, basically means circumventing the "To Wound" phase).
Itchy Nuisance: A hex, basically cuts D6 initiative from the target unit. Very nice for allowing the Goblins to strike simultaneously or faster than their opponent (On average an enemy unit I5 or less will strike simo or last).
Gork'll Fix It: Curse of Midnight Wind, basically.
Night Shroud: Probably useless on its own, but nice if you can snag the WR's in the bubble (gives Soft Cover).

So very few spells you can reliably expect to turn the unit into a dervish of death, but a number of them that can readily tip the scales in the unit's favor. Seeing its offensive power, a failed Animosity is generally less debilitating than it is for other units (as with a base three ranks, standard, BSB, and all those attacks, it's very possible they'll actually win a combat they charge into, especially if magic can be used to buff them / hex the enemy).

HawaiiMatt wrote:That's possible. I'd toss in the spider banner, so all those attacks pick up poison!

If you can fit in Gift of the Spider God becomes a bit more dangerous in that build, too! Even if you wind up fearing the enemy / hitting them on 5's normally, you don't really care and get to circumvent the "To Wound" phase (which at S4 / S5 / S6 is pretty dangerous).

HawaiiMatt wrote:4x Goblin Big Bosses on Gigantic Spider (50mm square), light armor, shield, spear
1 Goblin Big Boss BSB on Gigantic Spider, light armor, shield, Spear
30 Spider Riders, full command.

I'm normally iffy about this, mostly because Spider Riders are less durable and slower (in regards to movement). Also, compare what's going on: Four heroes instead of eight, 30 Riders versus 40, and a good 60 points more.

On the other, each of the Gigantic Spiders is basically a Hero in their own right. The new Monstrous Cavalry rules give them about 12 wounds, and sniping the Champion does not force the BSB into the front rank (as there is insufficient room due to base size differences. Hell, considering you want a 10-wide front, you can save 10 points by not buying the Champion and forcing another Hero / all the Riders to die before the BSB's at risk). Furthermore, they have the Spider's strider rules, have I4 mounts (putting out 12 poisonous S4 attacks and another 4 S4 stomps), and if you get GotSG off on them their mounts are striking I4 and poisoning on 5's!

Plus, thematically, you could combine it with a Snaggla list so as to dramatically reduce the shooting going towards your SR unit after turn one (need more Hero Points? Replace one of the GS BB's with a GS WB). If Snagla shows up behind the enemy's lines with a good 5-11 Spider Riders of his own, they probably aren't going to have more than a turn to focus on their front (especially if Empire, as Snagla's Riders will chew through Empire shooty units like a hot knife through butter).

HawaiiMatt wrote:Once in combat, the 4 big bosses fill the front rank (with unit champ and standard up front) and the musician and BSB are in the 2nd rank.
Since the BSB is on a monstrous mount, he can fight with his full 3 attack.

I forgot about Monstrous Mount, but good catch! This means a good 15 S5 attacks, 33 S4, and 2 S3 strikes on the charge.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Gigantic Spiders give +2 to armor save, so the characters up front are all T4 3+ armor and 3 wounds each.

If one wanted to take into account the risk of a challenge, it's only three more points to replace one of the basic shields with either a Charmed Shield or a Enchanted Shield, too. Basically allows said Challenge Taker (after the Champion bites one, of course) to deduce one hit against them, or have a 2+ save (thus prevent some killy Combat Lord from mulching your RnF or another Character).

HawaiiMatt wrote:Of course, all those characters are cannon bait since you lack a look out.

Might as well stuff the Ironcurse Amulet somewhere in that. Again, not that heavy an investment for moderate protection.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Hell, you can even squeeze in a Wizard Lord on that Arachnarok, and a warboss on foot (general) in a 2200 point game. That gives you a pretty cool spider theme.

Very nice for theme, aye.

Mind, while a horde of 'em won't work, this basically reminds me that Boar Riders could have a use. Fifteen of 'em with full command, two Big Bosses on Boars, and a B.Orc Big Boss on a Boar (assuming you care about animosity, otherwise just go three BB's). Starts with two ranks (thus it has to lose a good 8 models to drop rank-negating ability), standard, and on the charge (before buying spears for the BBs) gets a nice 25 S5 attacks (alternatively, throw some spears down and you're getting 16 S5 9 S6 attacks) for a total of 560 points. Reasonably durable (T4 and 3+ save), hits hard, and if given a Banner of Eternal Flame turns the unit into a reasonable monster killer (want to really be sure you kill monsters with it? Drop the Spear & Shields for GW's, so that you get 9 WS5 S7 Flaming attacks on the charge).

Turning so-so units amazing by stuffing their entire front rank full of Heroes. Gotta love OnG.