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In another thread, someone posted that since the Phoenix Lords are 'destined' to die at the final battle at the end of days, they can never truly die until then. Now, my question is, does that destiny truly exist, or it only exists because the Eldar believe in it? After all, they are a race of psykers, and as such the Warp would react to their beliefs much more strongly than for the beliefs of non-psykers.

To further expand on this, I would also point out that regardless of whether or not destiny truly exists or exists only out of belief, that 'destiny' is not absolute seeing that Humans have disrupted the visions of Eldar Farseers, not to mention Tzeentch is also known as the 'Master of Fate' - and his ultimate goal is a paradox in itself, as Tzeentch has no ultimate goal - and as such may be manipulating the destiny prophesied and believed in by the Eldar. As for the Humans in 40k, they do not seem to believe in destiny in its classic sense, rather, they believe in Manifest Destiny, a destiny that can only happen if they work to bring it about. How do they all fit together? Eldar prophecies and beliefs, Tzeentch's paradox, and Human Manifest Destiny?

In games or in real life?

In games and stories it is easy to focus on the events that appear to be destiny/fate working it's way to the inevitable conclusion. This mainly works because prophecy can be enforced by the author, so events that could be random chance in real life appear to go in favor of the prophecy.

In real life, there isn't a way to predict the future so fate and destiny are just selective reflection on how past events led to the current moment while ignoring the rest.

The Eldar do have the ability to change their own destiny's, but the many possible outcomes of events are fleeting, even to them. The "Rahna Dandra" (spelling?) is the Eldar tale of the end times. I would say that without knowing who made the prophecy of the Rahna Dandra, we really have no way of knowing how truthful or untruthful it is. Despite all that, I would say that because it is a widely held belief amoung the Eldar that there may be some truth to it. If you are asking this because you are planning to right some of your own lore, I'd say just go with it as being true, because the Eldar beleive it is true.

As for Humanity, Tzeentch and all that. I would say there fates are very distanced. The fate of the Eldar and the fate of humanity is only related in that they both oppose Chaos. There are, however lots of lots of theories on how the Imperium shall meet its end.

I don't believe in destiny.

There is no fate save that which we make for ourselves.

The question is pointless, as events do not unfold toward a fated 'end'.

 chromedog wrote:
I don't believe in destiny.

There is no fate save that which we make for ourselves.

I agree that pre-determined fate/destiny does not exist IRL, however, I was asking in-universe. Obviously, for 40k Humans, it doesn't exist either (they have Manifest Destiny instead). But for the Eldar it does, and so the questions are once again, does it truly exist, or does it exist only because the Eldar believe it exists? And with the psychic nature of the Eldar, how deep does the Warp's 'Master of Fate' influence extend?

Fate in 40k seems to exist, and all creatures with souls are at least affected by it, Necrons being the only race confirmed to be entirely Fateless, according to Tome of Fate.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Fate in 40k seems to exist, and all creatures with souls are at least affected by it, Necrons being the only race confirmed to be entirely Fateless, according to Tome of Fate.

What's the Tome of Fate? And Humans and Orks seem to have an enfuriating (at least to Eldar, Tzeentch just takes it all into stride) ability to disrupt fated events.

Tome of Fate is a Black Crusade (Tabletop RPG focusing on playing a Chaos-aligned character) sourcebook, which has a good amount of kewl Necron fluff in it, including that they are a wholly soulless, and Fateless race.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Tome of Fate is a Black Crusade (Tabletop RPG focusing on playing a Chaos-aligned character) sourcebook, which has a good amount of kewl Necron fluff in it, including that they are a wholly soulless, and Fateless race.

That makes sense, relative to the Warp of course. So, since Eldar are so dependent on psychic abilities, given what you told us about the Book of Fate, is it safe to assume that Tzeentch has his fingers deep into their future? The Orks and Humans at least have demonstrated on several times that they can break fate (which Tzeentch probably accepts in a stoic fashion, change being change after all), so they might not be as weighed down by 'fate'.

I actually can't recall humans or Orks being able to break away from "Fate", where is that from?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I actually can't recall humans or Orks being able to break away from "Fate", where is that from?

A statement from a Dire Avenger Exarch ranting about how Humans are 'thorns' in space-time, ruining the futures sculpted by the Farseers. As for the Orks, well, they're Orks. I just assumed that Orks being Orks, they do what they want to do, no matter what the universe tells them what to do.

Now, this seems to be a thread Tadashi would jump on in and post 2 replies for everyone else's.

I wonder what might have happened to him?

I am pretty sure that just means that the humans feth up the plans of the Farseers, lol.

I think Fate can be "changed" in general, altered, but only the Necrons are truly unbound by it (And it is for this reason that Tzeentch detests them so much), or unable to be scryed and manipulated accordingly by those with the ability to observe Fate.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Now, this seems to be a thread Tadashi would jump on in and post 2 replies for everyone else's.

I wonder what might have happened to him?

You know, this is the second time someone has mentioned that guy, who is he?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I am pretty sure that just means that the humans feth up the plans of the Farseers, lol.

Fair enough. But this also implies that while Humans cannot escape 'fate', they have at least some ability to change what has been written, and perhaps even twist it for their own advantage.

I think Fate can be "changed" in general, altered, but only the Necrons are truly unbound by it (And it is for this reason that Tzeentch detests them so much), or unable to be scryed and manipulated accordingly by those with the ability to observe Fate.

Well, if you don't have a soul and don't have a link to the Warp, it stands to reason that precognition would have no effect on you.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Now, this seems to be a thread Tadashi would jump on in and post 2 replies for everyone else's.

I wonder what might have happened to him?

You know, this is the second time someone has mentioned that guy, who is he?

A filipino otaku whose opinions are bound to get him banned some day, so don't get surprised if you often gets confused for him trying to avoid a ban.

Assuming your not him.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


A filipino otaku whose opinions are bound to get him banned some day, so don't get surprised if you often gets confused for him trying to avoid a ban.

This statement (or its latter part) does not make sense.

Assuming your not him.

I assure you my lord, I am not

For one thing, I am not an otaku...I watch anime, but I sure know how to separate the real from the unreal (though there are times I wish I could switch between the two).

Fate seems to exist in some form or another, but it does seem to be alterable by the actions of those concerned. There was a short story in one of the collections for the HH (forget which) where a Sister sent a message back in time to warn herself of the Heresy and then another Sister killed her present self, causing the future self to vanish as well. If it really was a vision from the future and not some daemon messing with her, it would point to destiny being changeable, even if changing it causes a time paradox. And of course, the Alpha Legion primarch was shown two futures that he could bring about, depending on the actions of his legion.

 Durza wrote:
And of course, the Alpha Legion primarch was shown two futures that he could bring about, depending on the actions of his legion.

But the credibility of the Cabal is suspect, seeing as if the Emperor won, there was a good chance he could have defeated Chaos, but with the Imperium ascendant, the Cabal and its clients would have been at a disadvantage. After all, even though Alpharius, Omegon, and their legion did help Horus, yet they still lost, even though the Cabal assured the twins that if they helped Horus, he would have won the war.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Durza wrote:
And of course, the Alpha Legion primarch was shown two futures that he could bring about, depending on the actions of his legion.

But the credibility of the Cabal is suspect, seeing as if the Emperor won, there was a good chance he could have defeated Chaos, but with the Imperium ascendant, the Cabal and its clients would have been at a disadvantage. After all, even though Alpharius, Omegon, and their legion did help Horus, yet they still lost, even though the Cabal assured the twins that if they helped Horus, he would have won the war.

True, but I'm assuming Omegon turns on Alpharius towards the end and sabotages the Heresy or something. I suppose it is somewhat telling that the guy who dealt with psykers and visions on a regular basis was 'accidentally' killed during the vision though. I'm still going with innocent until proven guilty, since the Cabal don't seem to have tipped their hand too much as of yet.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


A filipino otaku whose opinions are bound to get him banned some day, so don't get surprised if you often gets confused for him trying to avoid a ban.

This statement (or its latter part) does not make sense.

Indeed, but please be lenient, I haven't slept in 2 days. My stupid circadian rythm is all screwed up for no reason whatsoever.

Tadashi might not even be banned... I'm sure if you stay here long enough you'll get to see one of his wonderful thread on how the asian mind is alien to the westerner... Or how he is currently working on ways to transfer consciousness to clones... Or how the japanese people still dream of living under a fascist state...

Yeah, it goes on...

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
I'm sure if you stay here long enough you'll get to see one of his wonderful thread on how the asian mind is alien to the westerner...

I wouldn't say its alien, but it certainly is different. The mind-set, mind, and even then only by cultural standards.

Or how he is currently working on ways to transfer consciousness to clones...

It can be done, in theory, but whatever for?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
I'm sure if you stay here long enough you'll get to see one of his wonderful thread on how the asian mind is alien to the westerner...

I wouldn't say its alien, but it certainly is different. The mind-set, mind, and even then only by cultural standards.

His actual wording was, and I kid you not, ''The asian mind is to the western man what the Eldar mind is to the human''.

Or how he is currently working on ways to transfer consciousness to clones...

It can be done, in theory, but whatever for?

Defeat death.

I would explain why I disagree to it's feasability, but that's for another thread

Destiny in 40k exists, but is the construction of the machinations of Warp-Gods as opposed to any entity that we'd consider truly divine. That being said, fate and destiny can be challenged. The Eldar do it everyday.

 Harriticus wrote:
Destiny in 40k exists, but is the construction of the machinations of Warp-Gods as opposed to any entity that we'd consider truly divine. That being said, fate and destiny can be challenged. The Eldar do it everyday.

Would that include the Emperor? From what I know about the man, he is the gestalt reincarnation of countless Human psykers from ancient times committed mass suicide to fuse their souls into a being in the Warp which was born into a physical form. And if the Eldar depend on their Farseers to perceive the future through the Warp, wouldn't that mean they're at risk from Tzeentch and Co.'s machinations?

My interpertation is no, not really, in the sense of a predescribed path that all universe must abide to. After all, if ONE variable is unpredictable, like the humans, all other variables will be thrown off in a cascading wave of interactions. Butterfly effect and all. Especially if the butterfly occupies most of known space.

I think the closest analogue I can give to the Eldar(and other psyker's precognitive capabilities) is the Matirx "why Neo can see the future" explanation. The idea being, once you can SEE all the variables that define your universe, you can predict everything in a deterministic fashion. Neo could see the code of his universe, including every other person, and thus could predict the future. The only code he cannot see is himself, and thus his lack of self understanding does not allow him to predict everything, as he does not know how he himself will act in the critical moment.

Ofcourse, such computation is impossible on a concious level, but unconciously, you can get an incling of it.

The Warhammer universe might not have a code underlayer that psykers can access, but I believe that the Warp can act as such. Since all living creatures leave ripples in the Warp, a person who can, even unconsciously, start deciphering the patterns of the Warp could possibly achieve a limited omniscience, if only in a subconscious level.

The problem there is that there ARE variables that are unknown even in the Warp, the Necrons being one of them, Pariahs being others. Others, like the humans, change and shift too fast. Thus an accurate prediction will be difficult to make, and only possible futures may be gleamed. On the other hand, due to the nature of the Warp on reality, it IS possible that such predictions can become self futhfilling prophesies, even more than in real life. If a psychic race believes hard enough, they may influence reality itself in miniscule nudges to the path they have deemed inevitable.

And this is why, I believe, the Eldar seem more bound to destiny than other races. They are far more aware of the Warp's underling patterns, they are far more self aware, and most importantly, they are much more resistant to change. So for them their life's course seems clearer, and the more they believe their predictions, the more they re-enforce them. Which is a blessing and a curse.

Also, I personally do not put too much stock in the Rahna Dandra, simply because every culture in history has some sort of apocalypse belief. The Eldar are as prone to falling for comforting fairy tales as humans. Ragnarok also existed in the 40k universe, but never happened.

Then again, unlike humans, they can actually will their gods to wake up again, so who knows.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
In another thread, someone posted that since the Phoenix Lords are 'destined' to die at the final battle at the end of days, they can never truly die until then. Now, my question is, does that destiny truly exist, or it only exists because the Eldar believe in it? After all, they are a race of psykers, and as such the Warp would react to their beliefs much more strongly than for the beliefs of non-psykers.

To further expand on this, I would also point out that regardless of whether or not destiny truly exists or exists only out of belief, that 'destiny' is not absolute seeing that Humans have disrupted the visions of Eldar Farseers, not to mention Tzeentch is also known as the 'Master of Fate' - and his ultimate goal is a paradox in itself, as Tzeentch has no ultimate goal - and as such may be manipulating the destiny prophesied and believed in by the Eldar. As for the Humans in 40k, they do not seem to believe in destiny in its classic sense, rather, they believe in Manifest Destiny, a destiny that can only happen if they work to bring it about. How do they all fit together? Eldar prophecies and beliefs, Tzeentch's paradox, and Human Manifest Destiny?

Eldar 'destiny' isn't a perfect or easily-interpreted thing, from what I've seen in other material and in Path of the Seer it gets fuzzier as you get further into the future and it is always tainted by the perspective of the Farseer. The Eldar have clearer visions about larger events that are more easily seen, which is how they managed to figure out that Gazhkull would be less dangerous to the Eldar than the guy he replaced and put him in power, and about events that influence larger portions of the Eldar race and are thus remarked upon by many Farseers to come up with a truth less clouded by individual perspective, such as the Rhana Dandra and the Phoenix Lords. Even then they're still playing dice with the universe, cunning plots foiled by improbable coincidences pop up reasonably often in the fluff.

Tzeentch doesn't have a long-term view of anything, he makes plots for the sake of making plots, I suspect he influences things by relatively conventional means more so than not. He delights in bringing improbable things about more than anything, I always thought.

'Manifest Destiny' actually has nothing at all to do with 'destiny' in the traditional sense; it's simply a belief in the inherent superiority of ones' own culture over all others and some 'divine right' to expand because you can. It is a very accurate description of the Imperium's view of the galaxy, but I'm less certain of its place in a discussion of destiny.

So in a general sense the 40k universe is actually a very deterministic one, there is no cosmic guiding hand screwing with the vast majority of the galaxy, merely pointy-eared folk with a very clear mystical look at the butterfly effect and a feathery griefer screwing up everything because he can. All in a much more conventional choice-driven framework, no 'this will happen' prophecies that are always right.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Now, this seems to be a thread Tadashi would jump on in and post 2 replies for everyone else's.

I wonder what might have happened to him?

Still here.

I've been cutting back on internet forums to focus on school work.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Defeat death.

I would explain why I disagree to it's feasability, but that's for another thread

Only the weak-minded strive to understand their limitations.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
Now, this seems to be a thread Tadashi would jump on in and post 2 replies for everyone else's.

I wonder what might have happened to him?

Still here.

I've been cutting back on internet forums to focus on school work.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Defeat death.

I would explain why I disagree to it's feasability, but that's for another thread

Only the weak-minded strive to understand their limitations.

Whatever personal feud there is between you and him, please keep it off my thread.

Even the Emperor seems to be aware of destiny. In the outcast dead the main character is tasked with bringing the emp the future and when he learns he will inevitably be put onto the golden throne he continues, noting that it is the best chance for humanity.