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How on earth does the dark eldar allied matrix work? They cannot team up with blood angels and dark angels or nids...but eveyrone else is up for grabs?! What is up with that? Space marines? Space wolves? Grey Knights? Slanesh Daemons? Slanesh Spacemarines? Necrons? Sissters of battle?

I do not understand this...

Edit: Not necrons. But stil...that is very odd...

"Desperate allies" is VERYfar from "up for grabs"

It basically means that they CAN ally, in a situation so bad up that otherwise they are both dead, and they STILL can't get to trust each other enough to not be wasting time watching each other for treason.

Thier matrix basically means "they can temporarily put aside their differences with most people for the sake of survival."

The allied matrix is essentally:
Battle Best Friends For Life
It's Convenient to Ally Now and Fight Later
Desperate Al- oh my god they are going to eat our souls while we're still breathing kill them fast I'm to beautiful to die!

Yes, it makes no sense.

I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

Evertras wrote:
I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

Dirty

Desperate allies are more like-

SM Captain Revis lands on a planet with his squad.The planet has vegetation that reacts violently with projectiles so guns are off limits when in heavily forested areas. They send two man kill teams off to recon. The sarge recons a forest and finds a group of Dark Eldar scouting out the planet as well.

SM Captian: This world is ours Witch.

The Captain and his squadmate move to engage the DE Witches. Just as they are about to engage each other they hear a monstrous scream and they see a Hive Tyrant crash through the trees heading straight for them.

DE Witch: Wrong this world is theirs

They realize that If they do not work together they are all dead. and a desperate alliance is formed.

Also, time to break out the Sun Tzu.

For the men of Wu and the men of Yueh are enemies; yet if they are crossing a river in the same boat and are caught by a storm, they will come to each other's assistance just as the left hand helps the right.

Yeah, but if Wu are Dark Eldar and they are in the same boat as daemons that are actively eating their souls by their very presence I think the priority is to kill Yueh first then take your chances swimming.

Evertras wrote:
I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

That actually makes perfect sense.... In actually kind of surprised they arnt Brothers in Arms like Space Marines are with IG

Chaos with IG is simply Chaos with Traitor Guardsmen... pretty straight foward.




Like wise Im surprised the IG isnt brothers in Arms with Tau for the same exact reason, traitor Guardsmen working for the Greater Good (I guess its to balance it somewhat...)

 Galdos wrote:

Evertras wrote:
I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

That actually makes perfect sense.... In actually kind of surprised they arnt Brothers in Arms like Space Marines are with IG

Chaos with IG is simply Chaos with Traitor Guardsmen... pretty straight foward.




Like wise Im surprised the IG isnt brothers in Arms with Tau for the same exact reason, traitor Guardsmen working for the Greater Good (I guess its to balance it somewhat...)

^This. I miss my old Lost and the Damned army. Units of traitor guard being led by a CSM. Next big game I play will be these 2 allied together for the 1st time and I can't wait

Galdos wrote:

Evertras wrote:I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

That actually makes perfect sense.... In actually kind of surprised they arnt Brothers in Arms like Space Marines are with IG
Chaos with IG is simply Chaos with Traitor Guardsmen... pretty straight foward.
Like wise Im surprised the IG isnt brothers in Arms with Tau for the same exact reason, traitor Guardsmen working for the Greater Good (I guess its to balance it somewhat...)

That's the problem with this chart.
Some combinations are "fluffy" whilst others are nonsensical or require lateral thinking. For example, when we are supposed to justify IG allying with Chaos as Renegades, then they should just as well be able to ally with 'nids because of Genestealers.

It all appears fairly random.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Desperate allies are more like-

SM Captain Revis lands on a planet with his squad.The planet has vegetation that reacts violently with projectiles so guns are off limits when in heavily forested areas. They send two man kill teams off to recon. The sarge recons a forest and finds a group of Dark Eldar scouting out the planet as well.

SM Captian: This world is ours Witch.

The Captain and his squadmate move to engage the DE Witches. Just as they are about to engage each other they hear a monstrous scream and they see a Hive Tyrant crash through the trees heading straight for them.

DE Witch: Wrong this world is theirs

They realize that If they do not work together they are all dead. and a desperate alliance is formed.

Dawn of war *cough cough*

 Mahtamori wrote:
The allied matrix is essentally:
Battle Best Friends For Life
It's Convenient to Ally Now and Fight Later
Desperate Al- oh my god they are going to eat our souls while we're still breathing kill them fast I'm to beautiful to die!

Yes, it makes no sense.

Actually, its more like a:

BB-"These guys are not so bad, we can trust them enough to cooperate in strategic and tactical matters."
AoC-"They are not our friends, but they will hold their part of the bargain."
DA-"No other choice, but I ain't gonna take my eyes off them."
NUTA-"No FREAKING way I am working with these guys! I'd rather die !"


As for the genestealers thing, I actually think it SHOULD have been there, to some extend. (something along the lines of tyrnids can take IG as allies, but not the other way around perhaps?)

 BoomWolf wrote:

As for the genestealers thing, I actually think it SHOULD have been there, to some extend. (something along the lines of tyrnids can take IG as allies, but not the other way around perhaps?)

^This. None of my game group play Nids but if they did we would all allow this.

My local gamer group where also supriced that nids could not ally with guards. However, the reasoning was that when the giant hive fleets finaly comes the genestealer cults disapear or something? Or they suckumb to the hive mind, I am not so shure on the details.

Also, the broodlord is no longer a HQ choise meaning you cannot have a pure genestealer list.

Although if WD ever posted an allie list that is a genestealer cult that could be comerade in arms with tyranids and imperial guard and allies of interest with chaos marines (chaos cults and genestealer cults sometimes work together in the old fluff) it would be really cool.

All they would need would be one or two HQ. A magus or a genestealer lord. One or two troop choises like cultists or some genestealer hybrid. A fast attack, elite and heavy suport choise and it would be really awsome. Just build it so that all 3 armies (tyranids and IG in particular) has a reason to ally with it. If this included some form of skyfire for the tyranids then that would be REALLY awsome.

Also to note that Desperate alliances don't have to necessarily represent two factions voluntarily working together; an Eldar Farseer manipulating an Ork Warboss for example.

In the case of Dark Eldar and Daemons, I'm sure there's a story of an Archon who uses Daemons in order to try and overthrow Asdrubael Vect - perhaps this alliance represents the Dark Eldar's audacious desire for power, and the lengths that they will go to to acquire it?

Iranna.

Allied matrix often doesnt make sense from a fluff perspective. GW contradicts the matrix with fluff in the same rulebook it sets up the matrix (aka Tau and SM being brothers, when the rulebook later has accounts of them fighting in 999.M41).

Best not to dwell on the two or mix them up.

 Harriticus wrote:
Allied matrix often doesnt make sense from a fluff perspective. GW contradicts the matrix with fluff in the same rulebook it sets up the matrix (aka Tau and SM being brothers, when the rulebook later has accounts of them fighting in 999.M41).

It makes perfect sense because being allies doesn't necessarily mean being best friends who agree in everything, it just reflects how well the two armies fight together. Both C:SM and Tau are pragmatists who care about winning more than ideology, so when they have a common cause they're going to fight effectively together. Sure, they were on opposite sides of the war in some other cases, but both sides know that, say, stopping a chaos invasion is more important than dealing with old grudges.

Anyway, the correct way to look at it:

Battle brothers are armies that can fight together as a unified whole. They can entirely set aside their differences and do what needs to be done in the most efficient way possible.

Allies of convenience are armies that can fight together, but mostly in the sense of "kill the same target". They trust each other enough to work together under a broad overall plan (at least until the war is won), but not enough to integrate their units, follow orders from officers in the other chain of command, etc.

Desperate allies are armies that can just barely decide that it's better to kill the common enemy first before getting back to killing each other. They'll probably avoid killing each other long enough to finish off the immediate threat, but each is expecting to be betrayed as soon as that happens (if not sooner) and is planning their own betrayal.

Forbidden allies are armies that would rather die and take the hated enemy with them than stop killing each other long enough to face a common enemy.

Tyranids just mindlessly consume everything in their path. Any army attempting to ally with them would just be eaten first.


So, using the Tau as an example:

C:SM are battle brothers with Tau because they want to win, and a chapter master has the independence to make a proper alliance if that's what needs to be done.

IG are allies of convenience with Tau because they can agree to stop fighting and kill a common threat, but the commissars are watching closely for any signs of getting too close to the foul xenos.

SoB are desperate allies with Tau because xenos are to be burned with the Emperor's purifying flames, but maybe the Tau BBQ can wait until after killing that horde of demons over there.

Evertras wrote:
I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

The IGuard list is a very generic representation of basic human troops. The list doesn't necessarily have to represent actual Imperial Guard units.


So IGuard allied with Chaos are just traitor Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:For example, when we are supposed to justify IG allying with Chaos as Renegades, then they should just as well be able to ally with 'nids because of Genestealers.

It all appears fairly random.

As an old school player of Genestealer Cult, it was never about Tyranids + Guard. That combination has problems with the fluff because the Tyranids eat the Genestealer Cult just as readily as they eat everyone else, lol. Having Leman Russ tanks rolling along past allied Carnifexes (Carnifi?) would be pretty silly. I mean, yeah, some of the combos are rough to figure out, but Tyranids + Nobody is pretty easy. They are terrible party guests. They show up, eat everything, and never send a thank you card.


If the Genestealer Cult comes back, and I truly hope it does because it's such a cool part of the fluff, it needs to be its own list, with very particular restrictions. As it was mentioned, the Broodlord is not an HQ choice, so you can't even use it as a Patriarch for Ally purposes.

Just that the geanstealer cult is under the direct command of the hive mind, and as such there is no NEED to consume them until all resisting biomass is devoured, and at that point the cult willingly walks to be devoured by the fleet.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Evertras wrote:
I'm more confused on IG being buddies with Chaos. But you can fluff just about anything I suppose... cultists gotta come from somewhere, right?

The IGuard list is a very generic representation of basic human troops. The list doesn't necessarily have to represent actual Imperial Guard units.


So IGuard allied with Chaos are just traitor Guard.

Yeah, well... that's too much reasonableness for me to handle. :(

I suppose I can settle for that in my head. It just seems like everything is geared towards being actual 'sanctioned' IG. I'll get over it!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Allied matrix often doesnt make sense from a fluff perspective. GW contradicts the matrix with fluff in the same rulebook it sets up the matrix (aka Tau and SM being brothers, when the rulebook later has accounts of them fighting in 999.M41).

It makes perfect sense because being allies doesn't necessarily mean being best friends who agree in everything,

Being Battle Brothers (what the Tau and SM's are) means you're best friends.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Allied matrix often doesnt make sense from a fluff perspective. GW contradicts the matrix with fluff in the same rulebook it sets up the matrix (aka Tau and SM being brothers, when the rulebook later has accounts of them fighting in 999.M41).

It makes perfect sense because being allies doesn't necessarily mean being best friends who agree in everything,

Being Battle Brothers (what the Tau and SM's are) means you're best friends.

No it doesn't. It just means that, in a situation where you ARE on the same side, you are willing and able to fight as a unified whole. It doesn't mean that there is no possible situation where you could ever be on opposing sides of a conflict.

Might just be my translation of fluff but I always saw SM as being incredibly xenophobic and if they ever did side with an alien race they would only kill them after the battle.

 Papasmerv wrote:
Might just be my translation of fluff but I always saw SM as being incredibly xenophobic and if they ever did side with an alien race they would only kill them after the battle.

Depends on the xenos and the chapter. BT fighting as "allies" with orks? The orks are probably getting killed once the greater threat is dealt with. Ultramarines allied with Tau? Canon story is that the Ultramarines respected the honorable Tau (even though they are enemies at other times) and parted ways peacefully.

BoomWolf wrote:Just that the geanstealer cult is under the direct command of the hive mind, and as such there is no NEED to consume them until all resisting biomass is devoured, and at that point the cult willingly walks to be devoured by the fleet.

Exactly.

"When the cult has grown to significant size, the psychic beacon that emanates from the cult's Patriarch ensures that a hive fleet will finally descend upon the doomed world. As the cult comes into range of the Hive Queen's psychic control, it becomes utterly subservient to the Tyranid invasion, and the underground cult will explode in bloody and violent revolution."
- WD #266

The same article also mentioned Genestealer cults infiltrating the military, so an "infected" IG regiment would be quite plausible.

At least as plausible as Space Marines and Tau being BFFs, anyhow.

Sisters and Space Wolves being AoC is another obvious hint that the chart doesn't care much for the various factions' history. That's what I find so strange about it - it's like whoever wrote this matrix read about half the armies and made up appropriate connections, and then just rolled dice for the rest.

Infiltrated and subverted IGuard are what Genestealer Cults are. Codex: Tyranids 2E gave them access to all the fun IGuard vehicles, and the Brood Brothers were essentially statted out as IGuard if you wanted to use them that way.

But that quote is incomplete and eliminates context, When that bit of fluff talks about "coming into range", the rest of the part that is left out is that means a long, long way off. The cult rises up long in advance of the actual invasion, so that by the time the Tyranids arrive, everything is in disarray. It isn't something that just happens as the Tyranids enter a low orbit, lol. If they were successful, then the Tyranids eat them. If they were not, then the Tyranids just eat what is left of them. They don't fight alongside them.


Still not anything like IGuard + Tyranids as per the current edition's Ally Rules.


But Tyranids don't ally. If. If, the ally rules let you build a Genestealer cult-esque list, or even had restrictions that said "the following unis can ally) I'd see it. But they don't. Maybe the next Tyranid Codex will have that. Maybe there will be an article in White Dwarf? But let's be realistic. The Cult hasn't had a proper, official army list since 2nd Edition and almost all of its models are out of production. Ensuring the use of an army that is only slightly more official than the Squats probably isn't a high priority. You should know that fairly well.

You don't improve a few combos that seem hard to reconcile (Tau+SM, for example), by adding one that is impossible to reconcile, lol. That's just silly. They wrote the list right for Tyranids. Maybe they made mistakes elsewhere, but making more mistakes doesn't make any sense, now does it?

 Galdos wrote:
That actually makes perfect sense.... In actually kind of surprised they arnt Brothers in Arms like Space Marines are with IG

Chaos with IG is simply Chaos with Traitor Guardsmen... pretty straight foward.

The difference is simple:

C:SM, at least the "good" chapters like Ultramarines/Salamanders/etc, respect and value the IG forces they fight alongside as fellow members of humanity.

Chaos forces tend to treat their traitor IG allies as little more than cannon fodder to be throw into battle to absorb shots that might otherwise kill a marine.

Therefore C:SM get full battle brother allies, while Chaos armies only get allies of convenience.

 Lynata wrote:
At least as plausible as Space Marines and Tau being BFFs, anyhow.

Again, battle brothers =/= BFF. It just means that the two armies can completely set aside their differences and fight together as a unified force.

I still insist Tyranids should be capable of being desperate allies with Necrons and Chaos Daemons.

Tyranids can't eat them, so have no reason to kill them before killing whoever their enemy is (which is effectively what desperate allies are), and Necrons or Chaos Daemons are smart enough to let the Tyranids live long enough to kill whatever greater threat is out there.

reaper with no name wrote:
I still insist Tyranids should be capable of being desperate allies with Necrons and Chaos Daemons.

Tyranids can't eat them, so have no reason to kill them before killing whoever their enemy is (which is effectively what desperate allies are), and Necrons or Chaos Daemons are smart enough to let the Tyranids live long enough to kill whatever greater threat is out there.

This is not the way a tyranid invasion works. Maybe thy can't eat them, but they have to delete every factor which could disturb the absorption of the complete biomass and Necrons and Daemons are definitely such factors.