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Made in gb
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






surprised no one posted this yet

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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






How much more is there to be friendly with someone then to ecide you are going to take an exterminatus on a planet, but hold it off until the other guys evacuate?

This "some form of mind control" you are saying however, is nothing more then speculation of behalf of the people who insist that in the 40k setting ever single one must be super grimdark evil and no shades of gray are allowed, as a way to explin why Tau ARE evil. there is no mention of Tau mind-control, anywhere.

And while the IG and navy are under supervision from terra, the realm and the ultramarines do whatever they please, whenever they please. their mere existence is already against the rules, so who gives if they get more cooperative with xenos then usually allowed? who is going to do anything about it?

Once we delve outside the UM and into random chapters, why should a non-official chapter be tied to the doctorines of the imperium? rogue marines, deserters, "black ops" are all possible, and there is no reason why a blank-fluff army will be tied to the fluff limitations of the official forces. C:SM was also desigend to be the "generic marine" codex, and represents all the unnamed ones-they can be ANYTHING, and by that they should be able to form alliances as potent as the other side would have accepted. Tau would accept being battle-brothers with anyone that wants to.
While you can say that any codex can be a "generic force", none is as fitted to it as C:SM.

The matrix is not perfect, it CANNOT be perfect, as deplomacy is far more complex that such a system allows, so it compermises by giving many alliances more then they should be, because the next step is too far.
If you want a strict matrix, then almost everything should be a "CtA" level, even within different imperium factions.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick




United States

Man I dont even know how to reply to some of these post. They are crazy and all over the place. Adding this picture to help us out.


Image redacted; please don't post copies of copyrighted rules on Dakka.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 22:35:29


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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






There's hints to the Ethereals exerting a kind of phermone / mind control over other Tau.
I mean, being that the Tau just follow the Ethereals blindly, and the Tau book even states that the Tau have been specifically conditioned to follow the Ethereals....

It's also how the Mont'au Raiders work (immunity to the Ethereals) and it'll be a bit of a bugger having to rewrite that if the next codex outright refutes that.

   
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Rough Rider with Boomstick




United States

Personally, I think the 2 biggest issues here is (but there are others that I find odd)

Black Templar work better with Xenos (Eldar/Tau) better than they do with Sisters of Battle

Tau get along better with Space Marines loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium than they do with Guardsmen serving in the Tau Empire


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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 BoomWolf wrote:
How much more is there to be friendly with someone then to ecide you are going to take an exterminatus on a planet, but hold it off until the other guys evacuate?

This "some form of mind control" you are saying however, is nothing more then speculation of behalf of the people who insist that in the 40k setting ever single one must be super grimdark evil and no shades of gray are allowed, as a way to explin why Tau ARE evil. there is no mention of Tau mind-control, anywhere.

And while the IG and navy are under supervision from terra, the realm and the ultramarines do whatever they please, whenever they please. their mere existence is already against the rules, so who gives if they get more cooperative with xenos then usually allowed? who is going to do anything about it?

Once we delve outside the UM and into random chapters, why should a non-official chapter be tied to the doctorines of the imperium? rogue marines, deserters, "black ops" are all possible, and there is no reason why a blank-fluff army will be tied to the fluff limitations of the official forces. C:SM was also desigend to be the "generic marine" codex, and represents all the unnamed ones-they can be ANYTHING, and by that they should be able to form alliances as potent as the other side would have accepted. Tau would accept being battle-brothers with anyone that wants to.
While you can say that any codex can be a "generic force", none is as fitted to it as C:SM.

The matrix is not perfect, it CANNOT be perfect, as deplomacy is far more complex that such a system allows, so it compermises by giving many alliances more then they should be, because the next step is too far.
If you want a strict matrix, then almost everything should be a "CtA" level, even within different imperium factions.


Friendly is forming an alliance that last - not saying - I will let you go this time but I will kill you when we meet again - which is what i took from that entry AND what fits with the fluff - there is nothing in that entry that they would not do for any temp ally in a similar situation - Eldar or even Necron who they fought alongside.

Mind Control - this is in several if the fluff books that the Imperium suspect there is mind control and tell their officers that this is so.
p16 of the Tau Empire Codex all but says they took control over the Vespid Queens using "translation Helmits" - its part of the whole thing/mystery about the Tau - are they really as good as they claim - what is actually going on. Several GW/BL sources talk about the pheremone influence of the Etherials .
Its part of the fluff

The Ultramarines do not do as they please - they still stick within the letter of the law for the most part

Yes you can make up Chapters with pink elephants if you want - that does not mean they fit within the setting - what you describe does not really fit IMO. Marines hate and dispise Aliens - even Chaos Marines feel much the same.

Also you forget that the Tau are as dogmatic as any other faction - you will join the Greater Good or regretably we will destroy with whatever force is required. They want you to join them, there is no other alternative - join us or perish...........

The Matrix can be made better - although as we can see getting peope to agree is not easy...............

But I still maintain for the reasons stated, Alliance of Convenience is a far better fit than Blood Brothers for Tau / Astartes.............

In the same way as Black Templars should be AOC for Sisters, Cthe A with Xenos Witches like Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 22:42:31


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Mr Morden wrote:Several GW/BL sources talk about the pheremone influence of the Etherials .
I only ever recall seeing this in the BL Xenology book, with another piece of outsourced fluff (FFG's Deathwatch RPG) flat-out contradicting it. Both of these books also take liberties from GW's vision elsewhere.

I'm not saying either is more right (although I do have my own opinion), but I would say that, in this at least, "the" fluff is left intentionally vague (as per GW) or conflicting (the usual inconsistencies between licensed sources). Andy Hoare's text for the Gue'vesa, which was hosted on GW's website for quite some time, certainly did not sound like mind-control to me.
   
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Well then, it seems we will have to agree to disagree then.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Lynata wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:Several GW/BL sources talk about the pheremone influence of the Etherials .
I only ever recall seeing this in the BL Xenology book, with another piece of outsourced fluff (FFG's Deathwatch RPG) flat-out contradicting it. Both of these books also take liberties from GW's vision elsewhere.

I'm not saying either is more right (although I do have my own opinion), but I would say that, in this at least, "the" fluff is left intentionally vague (as per GW) or conflicting (the usual inconsistencies between licensed sources). Andy Hoare's text for the Gue'vesa, which was hosted on GW's website for quite some time, certainly did not sound like mind-control to me.


Its talked about on p9 of the current Tau Codex:

Ethereals: "Its speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes , as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving........."



I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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Sister Vastly Superior




Colorado

Add the whole tau rebellion where after the ethereal died and no others were around an entire military force turned their back on the tau.

On the note of sisters and IG being battle brothers. Most imperial guard regiments don't even like the sisters of battle. The guard tend to be realists because they are the ones who are constantly being thrown into the blender. Where was the emperor when steve got eaten by a carnifex?

And the sisters of battle are definitely NOT giving the orders to the guardsmen. The ecclesiarchy has no rank inside the guard. A battle sister is a civilian to them. Now there is of course exceptions. A guard regiment raised from an ecclesiarch world will probably love the sisters of battle. And might give command of a mission over to them But do you think a cadian gives a rats behind about them? Most of the common black library fluff also has the guard not even trusting the sisters to do job. I think it was the ciaphas cain novels (great books btw), where a ranking guard member (might of been ciaphas himself because he definitely did not have much respect for sisters) said the best use of sisters was to point them at something and scream heretic and hope they buy you some time.

When a planet comes under siege however the sisters are not in charge. They just are a well known faction that the guard need to help hold a planet. Two factions of the same species who have helped each other countless times in the past. Despite small differences they are going to get along better than pretty much anyone else.


When in doubt burn it, then burn yourself for doubting. 
   
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Douglas Bader






 Galdos wrote:
Tau get along better with Space Marines loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium than they do with Guardsmen serving in the Tau Empire


TBH I think this is just because GW have pretty much removed that fluff from the modern game. As much as I like the concept (it's the reason why I started IG, to go with my Tau), the gue'vesa don't seem to exist anymore.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also you forget that the Tau are as dogmatic as any other faction - you will join the Greater Good or regretably we will destroy with whatever force is required. They want you to join them, there is no other alternative - join us or perish...........


Sure, that's the propaganda, but the difference is that, unlike the Imperium, the Tau leadership doesn't believe its own propaganda. Outside of propaganda the Tau are pragmatists, their end goal is complete domination just like everyone else, but they're willing to make alliances and settle for less if it advances their long-term interests. They aren't going to turn down an effective alliance out of blind idealism and zealotry, like BT might.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Add the whole tau rebellion where after the ethereal died and no others were around an entire military force turned their back on the tau.

On the note of sisters and IG being battle brothers. Most imperial guard regiments don't even like the sisters of battle. The guard tend to be realists because they are the ones who are constantly being thrown into the blender. Where was the emperor when steve got eaten by a carnifex?

And the sisters of battle are definitely NOT giving the orders to the guardsmen. The ecclesiarchy has no rank inside the guard. A battle sister is a civilian to them. Now there is of course exceptions. A guard regiment raised from an ecclesiarch world will probably love the sisters of battle. And might give command of a mission over to them But do you think a cadian gives a rats behind about them? Most of the common black library fluff also has the guard not even trusting the sisters to do job. I think it was the ciaphas cain novels (great books btw), where a ranking guard member (might of been ciaphas himself because he definitely did not have much respect for sisters) said the best use of sisters was to point them at something and scream heretic and hope they buy you some time.

When a planet comes under siege however the sisters are not in charge. They just are a well known faction that the guard need to help hold a planet. Two factions of the same species who have helped each other countless times in the past. Despite small differences they are going to get along better than pretty much anyone else.


Agreed that the Sisters do not normally Command Guard units - Cain is basis against them but even he admits that their very presence has a morale lifting effect in the Guard and other forces on the a battlefield, plus they are very formidable fighters - just not many of them. They tend to be focused on specific goals/ defending specifics - again to do with numbers available on the whole.

I feel that we sometimes forget how important religion is to the people in the Imperium as it was in medieval times and the Sisters are a powerful example of the strength of the Faith. Again despite Cains views, when the Canoness speaks at the briefing - all take head of her words and are not only respectful but inspired by her and entourages presence......

@Peregrine:

Yes its the propaganda but its also a strong possibility that this is the case - as is the control of the Vespid "allies" through the translation helms. Its also the text in the Tau's own Codex which is usuallt the most pro the Race in question and which tries to give you insights. Its my view GW leaves it ambiguous cos they like that sort of thing but they definitely have laid the ground work here and elsewhere for future revelations about the nature of the Ethereals and control - maybe linked with the looming civil war with the FarSight Enclaves...............

The Tau are the iron fist in the velvet glove - eyes they will offer you terms (on their terms) but if you don't accept, regrettably they will do what they have to, with whatever level of force that needs (usually the minimum, granted but they will kill you all if they really have to)

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
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Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

I think the key problem with the allies matrix is that they made it symetrical; almost of all of these problems could be sorted if it was assymetric, with one axis marked for the primary contingent and the other for the ally. For example:

Tau readily incorporate humans into the empire as gue've'sa; therefore Tau + IG = battlebrothers

However a regular IG unit (with commissars, etc) will not willingly fight with xenos scum; therefore IG + Tau = alliance of convenience (at best).

I can't find it at the moment, but someone did a photoshop of the matrix alongs these lines when the rulebook was released. It made much more sense and fitted the fluff much better.

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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Mr Morden wrote:
short answer is hat GW screwed up the Matrix in this area - It should have been

SOB allies of Conveince with Black Templars and other Astartes
SOB as Desperate Allies with Space Wolves

rest as you say.


This, this, a thousand times yes.

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 Jadenim wrote:
I think the key problem with the allies matrix is that they made it symetrical; almost of all of these problems could be sorted if it was assymetric, with one axis marked for the primary contingent and the other for the ally. For example:

Tau readily incorporate humans into the empire as gue've'sa; therefore Tau + IG = battlebrothers

However a regular IG unit (with commissars, etc) will not willingly fight with xenos scum; therefore IG + Tau = alliance of convenience (at best).

I can't find it at the moment, but someone did a photoshop of the matrix alongs these lines when the rulebook was released. It made much more sense and fitted the fluff much better.

Well, agree,
   
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

This thread is 2 years and 3 months old...
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Well Dark Eldar hate Craftworld Eldar and vice versa, but they both see all other lifeforms as below Eldar.
Dark Eldar just have that whole torture or works of art thing going on (depending on your stance on the subject) that explains all the Desperate Allies.

Obviously Necrons hate Eldar and vice versa and Eldar fear 'her' (Slannesh). Tyranids...well there is no reasoning with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
This thread is 2 years and 3 months old...


Wow, I did not see this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/03 14:58:28


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The oceans of the world

 ImAGeek wrote:
This thread is 2 years and 3 months old...


And here I am wondering where this three page thread came from and why everyone is spitting outdated information out...
   
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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury


Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.


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