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The Ally Martix has, as noted above many errors and contradictions. The problem with many of the arguments for the matrix odd things is that they are exactly the same arguments for including or changing things on the Matrix.

It really needs GW to take another look at and get it closer to their actual game fluff or just say all armies can take each other as Desperate allies...

Yep. Because Tyranids plan to eat that planet, and the Necrons and Chaos Demons are going to be against that, since that planet is where they are currently keeping all their stuff.

Actually, I am not sure the necrons would mind a tyranid feast very much-they care little about anything biological anyway...no reason they can't be desperate allies (in the fluff sense of "they don't play along, but don't give a damn about each other killing stuff")

Demons however, need the mortals to worship them, and as such might not like the feeding frenzy THAT much (though I am sure at least T and K would have fun)

The Fluff (in GW published Codexes) clearly describes battle where Tryanids are corrupted and consequently would allow them as allies for Tryanids.

PLEASE re-read your post, its a bit silly

what that Demons are used as allies for Tryanids?

its in the fluff that Tyranids can be corrupted and hence used as tools by the Great Powers

 Mr Morden wrote:
what that Demons are used as allies for Tryanids?

its in the fluff that Tyranids can be corrupted and hence used as tools by the Great Powers

You still haven't read your own prior post. It states nids being allies for nids.

Ok, so, first off:
Come the Apocalypse = The factions hate each other so much they'll not work together outside of the most ridiculous instances (such as Apoc games )
Desperate Allies = A bigger threat is there, but they don't like each other, and they're quite probably going to kill each other afterwards. (could make for an interesting mini-game after you win, either facing off against yourself, or giving the allies to the opponent to run the break-down of communications )
Allies of convenience = The forces aren't enemies, but don't necessarily trust each other - but are willing to work towards a common goal.
Battle Brothers = The armies are similar in some way, or have fought together often, willing to work together in a coherent effort - they may not be friends, but they're happy to kill together.

In regards to Dark Eldar:
Come the Apocalypse = SLAVES!
Desperate Allies = There's something there we want, there's a target we can manipulate to help us! (such as Malys guiding the Orks into Verdigris.) Then we have our fun with what's left afterwards.
Battle Brothers = Our stuck up kin need help? Be good for a laugh and they'll owe us one. That and/or it's funny to encourage them down a dark path.

As for the list proper...

Frankly - most of it works out... either it's simply explained by, 'we're helping existing units that are trying to breach our target, then we'll kill them later' or something similar.
And here's the big one, if you guys can cope with this, I mean really, a massive thing here:
You may not know the fluff justification, the races may not always have been, nor always will be friends/enemies, HOWEVER, Games do know what they wanted things to be.
They write the fluff, and this is what they have deemed is how it is.
It may not fit with how you interpreted the world, but this is what it's set as.

Nope this is only how it is now - it can change to be more in tune with what they actually write n the same rulebook.

Sadly your view seems to be remain silent and accept anything together with a GW can not and never will make a mistake?

They have FAQs where they change rules - consequently the matrix could (and should) change to reflect their current fluff which is in the same rulebook - IMO anyway - and quite a few others .

Actually no, GW does plenty wrong.
My contention is that people are bitching that it's unfluffy, but GW write the fluff so it is fluffy. Just because people don't think it is, or don't want to accept it is silly.

There's plenty to have issue with in regards to things, and yes, some parts of the Allies doesn't make sense to everyone, but that's what it is.

Rules screwups, balance issues, and such that's fine to hash out - but complaining that certain rules don't match your opinion on a fluff that's incredibly diverse and often nonsensical? That's just crazy.

Its not my opinion the issue is its directly contradictory to their own fluff - no grey areas - just wrong.

Also it penalises certain armies - like Tryanids for no apparent reason whilst giving some armies a boost - Tau /Astartes blood brothers rather then Allies of Convenience - no reason that i can see.

it is a rules screw up..........and its crazy to ignore it when it means I can't field the armies that I and others spend time reading about. - which is an aspect of the hobby

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its not my opinion the issue is its directly contradictory to their own fluff - no grey areas - just wrong.

Also it penalises certain armies - like Tryanids for no apparent reason whilst giving some armies a boost - Tau /Astartes blood brothers rather then Allies of Convenience - no reason that i can see.

it is a rules screw up..........and its crazy to ignore it when it means I can't field the armies that I and others spend time reading about. - which is an aspect of the hobby

You mean the Tyranids that eat everything they come into contact with. Gee, I wonder why they don't ally with anyone....
Yes, 'nids have got a raw deal in the new rules (they should have been able to ally with themselves in my opinion.) but hey - the rest of it, some of it may be confusing, but they must have a plan in regards to the fluff.

As for Tau / Astartes being Battle Brothers - they've had conflicts in the past, that doesn't mean they won't work together, I mean are there any specific entries where it states that Tau / Marines hate each other explicitly?

I've heard rumours of an Allies book, or series of mini-dexes, if so I imagine they'd have what they can Ally with and we may yet get a Genestealer Cult book.
And we may get changes for the allies matrix yet... but frankly apart from the raw deal Tyranids got, the allies chart is one of the things I can't find a huge amount to complain about.

Also - the particular complaint about the DE list is crazy. There's 3 armies they can't fight with, and only Eldar they don't outright hate but are happy to use to further their goals. It makes sense.

The Tau/astartes thing is representing the UM and the Tau forces who respect each other enough to even give out warning to each other about incoming threats (heck, a SM commander even warned a Tau commander about an incoming exterminatus and recommended he evacuates his forces)

The two fight alot, as they have a border and they both compete for control of the eastern space, but they also know each other to be relatively reasonable and capable to form a pact for a given duration once there is an issue that requires their undivided attention, and after that it will return to business as normal, and as they trust each other enough not to betray the pact (as both faction regard honesty as an important value and they KNOW it) the pact itself usually contains an agreement of the save return of each one's forces to his own territory once the situation has been dealt with.
Heck, they are possibly the only two opposing factions that are peaceful enough NOT to shoot on sight and avoid conflict when it serves no purpose.

My problem with the Tau /Astartes link up is not that they can't ally - they can and should as Allies of Convenience as has often happened in the fluff - both Codex based and other.

But there was no reason to make them Battle Brothers - thats just wrong - that the Astartes will honour the Xenos above humanity or even other Astartes is stupid and "crazy". They will fight with them but that does not mean they don't dispise them for not being human.

And thats the issue there - that they trust the Tau more than anyone else..........which goes against everything the Astartes are about.

As already mentioned Nids can be corrupted by Daemons - so allies, Genestealers can corrupt humans and Tau so when the Hive fleet arrives they right against their own - and then all get eaten.

Astartes hate Xenos - quotes hell pretty much ANY quoute or story about the Astartes tells you that the Hate the Xenos!!!!!! Please find me a quote that says that they would trust them beyond the needs of a specific engagement which the latter would make them Allies of Convenience - as it should be.

My personal favorite is the black templars matrix. Desperate allies with sisters of battles. People of their own faction, who hate psykers, and worship the same god emperor. But then they are perfectly fine with allying up with grey knights and eldar. Two factions that are made up entirely of psykers.

There is even this bit in the black templar codex. "Such is the sacred revulsion in which the black templars hold witches and warlocks, that they will never alongside such abominations. No model with psychic powers may be fielded as an ally to the black templars. And they will not fight as allies to any army that includes any models with psychic powers."

Eldar should have been a come the apoc seeming as how their ENTIRE RACE is psychic. Grey knights should have been lowered to Desperate allies since they are noted as being the one exception to the old rule. But even then I would be totally fine with templars giving the finger to the GK.

I don't understand why sisters are desperate allies though. They should at least be allies of convenience since marines and sisters tend to not get along. But templars seem to be the exception to that for sisters and they have gotten along great because their beliefs are so similar. I would have enjoyed seeing sisters + templars as battle brothers. Especially after grimaldus and sisters fought and died together so magnificently in helsreach.

short answer is hat GW screwed up the Matrix in this area - It should have been

SOB allies of Conveince with Black Templars and other Astartes
SOB as Desperate Allies with Space Wolves

rest as you say.

OK, I'll admit that seems to be an oversight - that the ones that hate Psykers should be Come the Apoc with Xenos psyker races and Desperate Allies with Imperial Psyker Races...

Or maybe BT will be more tolerant with their next book?

Indeed

re Black Templars - Hopefully not another massive retcon like Grey Knights :( One was enough

One other thing - the 6th Ed rulebook was all about forging a narrative or using the fluff - so even GW think that its important

 Mr Morden wrote:

Astartes hate Xenos - quotes hell pretty much ANY quoute or story about the Astartes tells you that the Hate the Xenos!!!!!! Pelase find me a quote that says that they would trust them beyond the needs of a specific engagement which the latter would make them Allies of Convenience - as it should be.

BRB. page 175 963.41M, a clash between Tau and UM awakens nearby necrons-the two unite to fight the necrons Calger (the chapter master himself) calls in an exterminatus to deal with the situation once they see its required, but he lest the Tau forces evacuate themselves.
Even other humans rarely get that chance.

And if the chapter master respects them enough to give them that, be sure as hell that the enitre chapter at the very least views them as "Ok, for a xeno."


Nobody claimed they were friendly, but they know each other as honorable opponents, who will not betray an alliance and will see it to it's end.
Heck, you got humans living among the tau empire, that alone is a signal to the UM that the Tau are not planning to destroy humanity, and only control it-far better then the fate any other faction will give it.

Nope that quote says they will fight as "Allies of Convenience" for the duration of a single engagement - as I said.

He merely forstalled from destroying the Xenos. Did he invite back to his Realm, no, did he forge a treaty against the enemies of humanity nope he did not.
Did he even say he would not fight them again nope. The Ultramarines are often described as the most honourable of the Astartes (rightly or worngly) and would give a tempoary ally - be it Xenos or not this chance - they certianly would allow other humans to fall back if they could.
Plus the Allies Matrix gives almost ALL Astartes as Battlebrothers - including much more hardline and less "honourable" ones

What about Allies of Convience does not fit and Battle Brother does? Read the two entries - Allies of Convenience fits this relationship perfectly.

BB
The strongest of alliances, two or more armies striving for a common goal. Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as an extension of thier own forces. Such alliances are always voluntary........

AOC
The tides of war often throw unlikely allies together, forcing them to work in common cause for a time............

Those humans under the Tau rule are Traitors and considered so by all members of the Imperium. Being under the control of Xenos is an anthama to the Astartes.

Finally:
p177 of the sames rulebook has the Ultramarines liberating Lagan from the Tau - their "battlebrothers"

As I said, they are by no means "friends", but when a situation rises where it would benefit them to join forces, they have no problem doing so, and they know each other to be trustworthy and professional enough to be a 100% committed to the alliance for it's duration.

Look at that as less of a political form of battle brothers, and more of an exception situation of professional form of battle brothers, they know its more effective to join forces completely and they trust each other not to do anything funny during the time they fight as joint units.

Also remember that the kingdom of ultrmar does not quite bend to the will of the imperium, and often does whatever the heck it wants, regardless of the official stand of the rest of the imperium.

And while its obvious to both that any alliance is temporary, and in general they are still rivals-they really don't follow the regular "cleanse, purge, kill" relationship they got to most races, even if from a concern of self bnefit ("we wont go too hard on their civilians when we take worlds, they will let ours be whenever we lose a world.")

Also "liberate" sounds to me as they are considered more of prisoners in the eyes of the UM then traitors. you don't "liberate" a traitor, you kill him. Tau took a few worlds, setteled them with other races along the humans, UM took them back and drove out all non-humans.
Far more effective method if you actually CARE about your human civilians (and the UM does, unlike many other chapters)



If anything, tau should have been BB with IG as well. (they got lots of deserters who joined the greater good)

 Lynata wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:Just that the geanstealer cult is under the direct command of the hive mind, and as such there is no NEED to consume them until all resisting biomass is devoured, and at that point the cult willingly walks to be devoured by the fleet.

Exactly.

"When the cult has grown to significant size, the psychic beacon that emanates from the cult's Patriarch ensures that a hive fleet will finally descend upon the doomed world. As the cult comes into range of the Hive Queen's psychic control, it becomes utterly subservient to the Tyranid invasion, and the underground cult will explode in bloody and violent revolution."
- WD #266

The same article also mentioned Genestealer cults infiltrating the military, so an "infected" IG regiment would be quite plausible.

At least as plausible as Space Marines and Tau being BFFs, anyhow.

Sisters and Space Wolves being AoC is another obvious hint that the chart doesn't care much for the various factions' history. That's what I find so strange about it - it's like whoever wrote this matrix read about half the armies and made up appropriate connections, and then just rolled dice for the rest.

Since the guns of The Fang have been turned on Ecclesiarchy vessels along with Ordo Malleus ones, it doesn't surprise me that th Sisters are Allies of Convenience for the Wolves, just like their rivalry with the Dark Angels and short war with the Grey Knights made both Allies of Convenience.

However, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Desperate Allies should never have existed and everything in that column should have been Come the Apocalypee.

Yes but you could say the same about the Eldar or other Xenos who have fought alongside the Imperium and the Ultramarines. The Tau are actively agressive against the Imperium - an enemy and as Lagan is retaken, so they take an neighbouring system from the Imperium.

Technically it says they liberate the system not the population - any asessment of their status would be for the monolith organisations of the Imperium. whilst the Ultramarines may be as you say independant but they would also be quick to deal with alien sympathisers or allow the normal authorities to do so - Where they would differ is that they would honour those who fought aginst such Xenos creatures and attempt to protect them form the uncaring Imperial authorities. In fact the Ultramarines seem to be less likely to stick up for civilians that are not their own people than the Space Wolves or Salamanders - the former famously confrointing the Inquisiton over the treatment of the heroes of Argmeggedon, and the latter seeing their primary duty as protecting humanity.

Also - as I menitoned the Ally Matrix entry covers ALL Codex Space Marines not just the Ultramarines....

Again I don;t see why Allies of Conveince would not cover what happended here - the tempoary alliance to survive the Necron onslaught - makes sense.

What makes it Battle Brothers? Something that is not granted to other Imperials despite similar or more long lasting alliances?

 kinratha wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Desperate allies are more like-

SM Captain Revis lands on a planet with his squad.The planet has vegetation that reacts violently with projectiles so guns are off limits when in heavily forested areas. They send two man kill teams off to recon. The sarge recons a forest and finds a group of Dark Eldar scouting out the planet as well.

SM Captian: This world is ours Witch.

The Captain and his squadmate move to engage the DE Witches. Just as they are about to engage each other they hear a monstrous scream and they see a Hive Tyrant crash through the trees heading straight for them.

DE Witch: Wrong this world is theirs

They realize that If they do not work together they are all dead. and a desperate alliance is formed.

Dawn of war *cough cough*

They where normal eldar, not dark eldar. DE can't use sorcery.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What makes it Battle Brothers? Something that is not granted to other Imperials despite similar or more long lasting alliances?

Because being battle brothers isn't about friendship, it's about working effectively together. Consider some of the other armies:

C:SM can work with Tau effectively because the Ultramarines are pragmatic enough to do whatever is best for winning the more important fight, and powerful and independent enough to ignore any concerns about appearing to be corrupted by xenos.

IG can't work with Tau effectively because the leadership might want to, but the commissars are always watching for anyone showing signs of too much xenos influence and as a result they'll keep a safe distance even while working towards the same goal.

BT can't work with Tau effectively because even if they could temporarily put their "KILL THE XENOS" demands aside long enough to deal with a greater threat they still aren't going to trust the Tau and will probably look at them as little more than meat shields.

GK/SoB can't work with Tau effectively because, while some members of the Inquisition would be quite happy to form a close alliance, the codex as a whole is supposed to be focused on the GK themselves and the whole "kill any witnesses to chaos" thing kind of gets in the way of effective alliances.

I don't think any of the above should be battle brothers with the Tau - and the Astartes/Tau team up in the face of the Necrons can still work effectively as Allies of Convenience.

Also Battle Brothers: I am sorry but I can not see any Astartes handing over direct command of his men to a Xenos - they baulk about the Inquisiton doing so and certianly don't let the Guard do so but some jumped up Tau Etherial (with unknown mind controlling powers) or a Battlesuit clad Officer is fine - no sorry don't buy it.

Now the Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle can and do operate with the Astartes - certainly alot more than the Tau but they can't be battle brothers when the Tau can - very silly and against all the information that GW provide about the Astartes.

Again I am not saying that the above should be Battle Brothers - I am saying that the Tau should not be - all should be Allies of Convenience due to the operational differences.

Also I wish people would stop saying that C:SM is just the Ultramarines - its not - its a wide range of Chapters - some of whom are much more hardline about Xenos, although the Ultras hate and dispise aliens too.

By the same note that C:SM is also about chapters with a more strict any-xeno line then UM, it is also ones with even more loose anti-xeno line, as it is meant to represent any non-spesific chapter.

Even traitor-yet-not-chaos chapters (it CAN happen, even if bizarre.), and these will get along just fine with Tau, as Tau's public behavior code is "if you are willing to be our friend, we are willing to be yours", even without any form of official pact or alliance, the "default" setting for them is "truce" (unlike anyone else in the galaxy)

As for sisters, they don't get along with anyone well (other then IG that they are more "taking command of" rather then joining forces), no reason to think they will with Astartes.
IG IS in fact battle-brothers with marines-they operate really well as a team.

The Tau status as BB is only because they are trustworthy enough to make full-blown pacts with, where even the majority of the imperium tends to suspect each other of chaos at the slightest disagreement and might go an a killing spree for it, or call the inquisition, who may kill you just to be sure. (and as known-Tau are immuned.)

Sorry I don;t buy that - the Sisters may have differences with the Asartes and the Guard but they are all basically human. The fundemntal principle of the Imperium is that there is humanity and everything else.

There are many examples of the Astartes and the Sisters joinging together against a common enemy - certainly far more than the Tau/ Astartes.

There is nothing in the fluff anywhere that states that the Tau and Astartes arre anything more than Allies of Convenience in specific situtation where there is a common threat. Certianly nothing which lives up to Battle Brothers where the Astartes would allow them to be direcly lead and commander by an Alien.

We know that Humans such as members of the Guard and Sororitas have been honoured by the Astartes as battle brothers and Sisters - I have not seen any examples of where the Tau have been - its always an Alliance of Convenience that last as long as the mutual threat continues.

There is never any long stadning pact or such like with the alien - it part of what the Marines are - they are bred to Hate the Alien - which specific Chapter are you thinking of that consider an Alien other than as at best "not an enemy at this time?" Even "traitors " still have their centuries/millenia of teaching that the Alien is the enemy.

Not sure what yuo man by the tau are Immune?

Sisters tread guard and SM way differently, and as such IG are BB with them, while SM are not. they do not TRUST marines, while IG are, as stated, following the commands of the sisters, rather then fighting alongside them-so there is no room to not trust the commands-they are giving them!

You keep ignoring me telling you to stop thinking of that spesific alliance matrix as political, and more as professorial-codex marines (that focus mainly on UM), are flexible enough to do what need to be done to get the job done, even teaming and taking orders from aliens, as long it is clear it is for a predefined purpose, and so are Tau. other IoM factions, not so much.
They don't LIKE it, but they can grasp the logic of it, and work by it. they know that Tau ranking officers are good enough at what they do that their commands are efficient, and that they care enough about those under their command t not throw the lives of whoever is borrowed to them away.

As for "no standing pact", even inquisitors at times take xeno mercenaries, its considered a radical action to side with them, but also a possible one as long its a rational xeno. eldar are considered to be backstabbing bastered though, tau-not really. they never broke any deal they made with the IoM, and never did any of the "sacrifice billions of humans to divert a threat off a craftworld" plot.
Anyone who was in contact with Tau for a while knows that Tau are more reasonable and trustworthy then half of the imperium itself, and as such it is EASY to form serious pacts with them-again, only tactical ones, not diplomatic ones. (except if the represented chapter is a renegade one, and then they might even make diplomatic ones, tau are an easy way to make sure you got some safe space to hide in...)

Tau have nearly no warp signature, chaos cannot influence them as it does to many races, and demons can't even detect their presence from the warp, let alone mutate them. on the flip side they can never be psykers and cant cannot warp-travel at all. (questionable HOW it is like that, but its a known fact even within the imperium that Tau are somehow protected from the warp, fluff-wise they are much more immune to psykers then anyone else as well.)

I am not ignoring it I am saying its wrong - I dispute that the Astartes would consider the Tau as equal enough to their own enough to take orders - they will certainly work with them if they have to for the duration of the threat and thats it nothing more. This tempoary alliance has happaned many times - the situation you descibe has to my knowledge never happened in the fluff anywhere?

Again you are ignoring my question: Why the Alliance of Convenience rule would not reflect the reality of the few joint operations where a greater threat threw the forces together - which is all there ever has been.

Tau Water Caste are well known for their ability / deviousness in negotaitions and the Imperium is also well aware that the Etherials have some form of mind control that allows them to form a cohesive Empire. The standard line is Its danagerous for anyone to have extended contact with them. The Asrates usually object to treaties with the Tau - even when the Guard and Navy consider it the only thing to do. The Tau are not a friendly nation - they are an aggresive enemy that is constantly probing their frontier with the Imperium and atempting to corrupt its citizens

Again you mentioned these Chapters that are friendly towards Xenos - are there any examples that you can flag up

Tau are blunt but not Blanks - they can be physcially mutated and otherwise effected - plsu they use subject races that can be affecdted as normal by Chaos like the Kroot.