Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i was at my FLGS the other day and decided i wanted to try my Aircav list , and a 2k points i brought these flyers


x3 Vendettas

x2 Valkyries w/ MRP and Multilasers .


I doubled the FOC so all of them were independent and i had a comm relay as well as an Astropath on my CCS , my Opponent was Black templar with Tyranids allies ( friendly game so i didn't care ) and he brought 6 Land Raiders , and my list bascially had Vet Squads with plasma riding in the Gunships ( had to , have em painted like Rangers from Black hawk down ) with an Infantry platoon and a x2 Demolishers on the ground behind an ADL basically kicking ass and being happy ........... Now what happened is on turn 2 all of my Flyers came in , the Vendettas all killed Landraiders ( insane rolling ) and the Valkyries killed the Acyoltes inside while the troops from the gunships used Grav Chute insertion and deployed in HIS primary Objective that was worth 3 victory points ...... and Turn 3 my Demolishers popped 2 more landraiders and the 3 Vendettas killed the final ... He Screamed Cheesy and Threatened to " Kick my cheating ass for not playing the Game right " ( which is funny sense i take Army Combatives which is a mix of combat Hapki Do and Ju Jitsu ) and he promptly threw his landraiders across the table and left ..

Now is what i did Cheese ? the 5 Aircraft only cost like 580 points if i rememeber right , so was what i was doing cheese or was he just being asore loser ?

Not cheesy to me. Cheesy to anyone who it beats? Probably.

If your opponent is allowed to bring an illegal army, he has no room to complain when he gets beat by your legal list. Technically HE was cheating, but you agreed to allow that.

Plus you were using 2 Valkyries and not all Vendettas.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
He Screamed Cheesy and Threatened to " Kick my cheating ass for not playing the Game right " ( which is funny sense i take Army Combatives which is a mix of combat Hapki Do and Ju Jitsu ) and he promptly threw his landraiders across the table and left ..

Your opponent is TFG and needs to grow up before he's allowed out in public again. Any "cheese" you might have been guilty of is negated by his shameful behavior.

TLDR, but if you have to ask, it probably is.

Hahahaha. Black Templars with Tyranid allies?
Guy is just a poor loser. Also, who the hell throws land raiders around and then leave? Does he not know how much the buggers cost!?

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
2k points i brought these flyers


x3 Vendettas

x2 Valkyries w/ MRP and Multilasers .

No. At 2000 points, you could have had 18 Vendettas. I would be HAPPY to play your list compared to that.

No, thats just an awesome list. The Imperial Guard have such cool flyers.

Tell him to go buy a cheesy army if he can afford throwing Raiders around.

 DeathReaper wrote:
TLDR, but if you have to ask, it probably is.

Even after reading it, the only thing I could think of is this.

Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

this, cheese is, after all, the warcry of the poor gamer and I often find that "waaaa, that army was OP, I had no fun" often means "oh no I didn't win and I can only have fun when I'm winning"

I also hate it when people rant on about how little fun it is to play "op" lists :/ hell I love the challange of fighting them.

in short, no it isn't, yes the guy was a jerk and no, do not stop playing with well made armies. It's people who cry cheese and give up mid/early game who make the game dull, not the people who run said lists

I would consider 5 flyers a little cheesy for a friendly game, but I would have the same opinion of 6 land raiders, so really its a wash at worst. If I were to come to a store expecting a friendly game and ended up facing down 5 flyers, I'd be a little chapped too, especially since if your army doesn't have access to flyers you basically can have a whole 2 anti-flyer options in your whole army using fortifications. Besides that all you have to rely on is luck and weight of fire.

Contrary to popular belief, not everyone wants to play the most powerful lists they can. For those people, someone taking a flyer spam or other crazy tough list could well turn the game from a fun time to an exercise in frustration. If you wanna play a list like that, you should at least let your opponent know before hand if at all possible.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

It's a potential problem in this case because of GW's horrible game design policies that leave entire armies without an update for years at a time. As a result some armies have flyers and AA, while others don't. Bringing five Valkyries/Vendettas against an army that has access to AA units is probably fine, while bringing them against an army that doesn't isn't going to lead to a very fun game. And not because one player took weak units for "fun" or "fluff", or sucks at list building, but simply because they picked an army that GW wasn't going to update until 9th edition.


Of course in this case any possible concern is negated by the opponent's childish behavior, so I have no sympathy for him.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

There's no reason you should make your list weaker just to give someone else a chance against it.
That said there's no real reason someone should play you just so they can lose without a chance of beating you...
If it's just their list then you might be able to help them but some codex's aren't particularly strong against some other codex's.

Tiny bit cheesy, due to aircraft domination ATM (will be fixed once more answers to it are out there)
But I played against worse and had my fun.

Your opponent however, I would refuse to play against even if he took a generic tactical spam list-he is just an arse.

 DPBellathrom wrote:

this, cheese is, after all, the warcry of the poor gamer and I often find that "waaaa, that army was OP, I had no fun" often means "oh no I didn't win and I can only have fun when I'm winning"

This is ridiculous. I lose quite often, and I wouldn't play the game unless I thought it was fun anyway. However, some lists and players are just no fun to play against.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

Cheesy compared to tournament lists? no. Cheesy compared to what most people will bring to a friendly game? yes. I really don't understand people defending making lists that just smash the opponent with statements like the one I quoted. You don't see professional chess players sign in for amateur chess tournaments and go: 'why shouldn't I play the best game I can? It's not my fault you're so bad at this game'.

If you agree before the game to bring competitive lists, by all means go ahead. I'm not expecting to go up against five flyers though in a friendly match.

The way that game played out, like a SpecOps Tactical Insertiom Strike, I would be happy to lose.

I don't really think that anyone who brings six land raiders is in much of a position to complain about a cheesy list to be honest.

grrr

For a casual game yes flyer spam is cheese, most people dont take alot of flyers or alot of anti air so taking 5 is OTT.

'Cheese' is very subjective. Most accusations of 'cheese' come when both sides have built fairly specialized lists and one is better against the other; six Land Raider Crusaders are over half his points and utterly useless against flyers, they'd be 'cheese' against some armies, but not here.

General rule: It's 'cheese' if the other person builds a casual, fluffy list and you show up with a min/maxxed tournament list. Other than that, you're fine.

It's perfectly within the confines of the codex, and isn't gamey at all. That said, it's a very, very hard list for almost anyone to deal with. I can guarantee I wouldn't even be able to slow that list down with my average IG or Marine list. That said, I don't know what else is in it, so I might still be able to win by playing the objective, but it wouldn't be a terribly fun list to play against unless I had a similar amount of aircraft.

RayND wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
2k points i brought these flyers


x3 Vendettas

x2 Valkyries w/ MRP and Multilasers .

No. At 2000 points, you could have had 18 Vendettas. I would be HAPPY to play your list compared to that.

No you can't. 18 vendettas are 2340 points by themselves.

there should be a FW or IA army that lets you play an imperial army made just out of flyers . with fighter Aces being HQs , bombers being hvy support , valks/vendettes being troops.

It would be fun to play with .

 Peregrine wrote:

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why should somebody have to limit their chances of winning or having fun for the sake of being friendly? If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date. But having 18 Vendettas would be a worse injustice.

It's a potential problem in this case because of GW's horrible game design policies that leave entire armies without an update for years at a time. As a result some armies have flyers and AA, while others don't. Bringing five Valkyries/Vendettas against an army that has access to AA units is probably fine, while bringing them against an army that doesn't isn't going to lead to a very fun game. And not because one player took weak units for "fun" or "fluff", or sucks at list building, but simply because they picked an army that GW wasn't going to update until 9th edition.

He did take allies, some allies he could have taken have good AA options IIRC. By good I mean other flyers, hell ally with IG at 2000 pts and take 2 vendettas of your own.

Besides, the meta has changed. Flyers are part of the game. Some people just need to wake up and realize that.

Well the issue that he had with it is that he said " I knew that he brought that list " and my response that i wasn't my fault at all , i don't see how im at fault , yes it was ment to be a freindly game but i did this a little on purpose because he is a netorious die Hard

Legion of Flame wrote:
If you have to make your army list weak just because someone cannot properly make an army, then that is the greatest injustice of society to date.

First World problems.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Well the issue that he had with it is that he said " I knew that he brought that list " and my response that i wasn't my fault at all , i don't see how im at fault , yes it was ment to be a freindly game but i did this a little on purpose because he is a netorious die Hard

If he brings 6 Land Raiders to a 2000 point game, he can't really complain. Sucks to suck. He lost.
Tell him to sack up and actually play a cool army instead of his poverty-tier mehreenz AV14 spam.

The Black Templar LR spam along with the Nid allies doesnt sound like he was gearing towards a friendly game, I personally think it's poetic justic for him to have been wiped. Now, on the other hand had it been a truly friendly game I would see cheese on your part but taking everything into account I'd say it was "fair"