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I've just sent an email to GW asking for clarification, but I'd like to get peoples' opinions here as well.

The Entropic Strike rule for Necrons (Codex: Necrons, pg. 29) states that "Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle". What defines the end of the battle? Is it the end of the turn, the end of the game, or the point where the affected model(s) are no longer engaged in close combat? If the answer is the latter, please consider the following scenario: A Carnifex assaults a unit of scarabs at the top of a turn. The scarabs succeed in wounding the Carnifex, leaving it with no armor save, but 3 of the 4 scarabs are wounded and removed from the game. At the bottom of the turn, a unit of wraiths joins the assault; no wounds are inflicted upon the Carnifex or the wraiths, but the last remaining scarab base is wounded and removed. Since the Carnifex is no longer in combat with the unit that inflicted the Entropic Strike, but is still in combat, does it regain its armor save?

wfischer wrote:
I've just sent an email to GW asking for clarification, but I'd like to get peoples' opinions here as well.

The Entropic Strike rule for Necrons (Codex: Necrons, pg. 29) states that "Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle". What defines the end of the battle? Is it the end of the turn, the end of the game, or the point where the affected model(s) are no longer engaged in close combat? If the answer is the latter, please consider the following scenario: A Carnifex assaults a unit of scarabs at the top of a turn. The scarabs succeed in wounding the Carnifex, leaving it with no armor save, but 3 of the 4 scarabs are wounded and removed from the game. At the bottom of the turn, a unit of wraiths joins the assault; no wounds are inflicted upon the Carnifex or the wraiths, but the last remaining scarab base is wounded and removed. Since the Carnifex is no longer in combat with the unit that inflicted the Entropic Strike, but is still in combat, does it regain its armor save?

The end of the battle is the end of the current game.

They use language like "Until the end of the combat" when they mean the current ongoing Close Combat.

So the Carnifex will not have an armor save for the rest of the game.

 DeathReaper wrote:

wfischer wrote:
I've just sent an email to GW asking for clarification, but I'd like to get peoples' opinions here as well.

The Entropic Strike rule for Necrons (Codex: Necrons, pg. 29) states that "Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle". What defines the end of the battle? Is it the end of the turn, the end of the game, or the point where the affected model(s) are no longer engaged in close combat? If the answer is the latter, please consider the following scenario: A Carnifex assaults a unit of scarabs at the top of a turn. The scarabs succeed in wounding the Carnifex, leaving it with no armor save, but 3 of the 4 scarabs are wounded and removed from the game. At the bottom of the turn, a unit of wraiths joins the assault; no wounds are inflicted upon the Carnifex or the wraiths, but the last remaining scarab base is wounded and removed. Since the Carnifex is no longer in combat with the unit that inflicted the Entropic Strike, but is still in combat, does it regain its armor save?

The end of the battle is the end of the current game.

They use language like "Until the end of the combat" when they mean the current ongoing Close Combat.

So the Carnifex will not have an armor save for the rest of the game.

Agreed, specifically states "remainder of the battle" not "remainder of the combat"

A person, or alien in this case can't just regenerate armor out of thin air

End of the current game.

As a random side comment, how about if say scarabs killed a necron lord or cryptec and they even failed their ever living and removed completely but due to ghost ark rules got brought back, do you keep the armor or still lose it?

It would be weird if the Ark could repair a Necron that was utterly destroyed, but not fix its armour.

Anyway RAW it's a new model that is added to the unit so it should not be damaged in any way.

copper.talos wrote:
It would be weird if the Ark could repair a Necron that was utterly destroyed, but not fix its armour.

Anyway RAW it's a new model that is added to the unit so it should not be damaged in any way.

Be very careful with how you play that one.

Do they get their single use items back?
Solar pulses on every enemy turn, for the entire game, do not make for an enjoyable experience.

I am very careful about it. I said undamaged not a completely new model from the list.

They are still the same model, so they have the same status effects on them - any used single use gone, armour gone, etc

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are still the same model, so they have the same status effects on them - any used single use gone, armour gone, etc

Just to push the point here further home, the ghost ark rule does say it "repairs fallen necrons", it does not say it creates new ones or anything to that degree.

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are still the same model, so they have the same status effects on them - any used single use gone, armour gone, etc

Just to push the point here further home, the ghost ark rule does say it "repairs fallen necrons", it does not say it creates new ones or anything to that degree.

Not that it would ever matter, as the unit overall gets to make the 4+ even if a lone Warrior has no armour save, and then that save-less Warrior would logically have the first unsaved wound allocated to it.

Unless there's a Cryptek or other character with the unit.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are still the same model, so they have the same status effects on them - any used single use gone, armour gone, etc

Just to push the point here further home, the ghost ark rule does say it "repairs fallen necrons", it does not say it creates new ones or anything to that degree.

Not that it would ever matter, as the unit overall gets to make the 4+ even if a lone Warrior has no armour save, and then that save-less Warrior would logically have the first unsaved wound allocated to it.

Mixed save unit at the point, so one at a time. Keeping track of who has lost their armor and who hasn't could become a pain though.

You're thinking statically in the moment and only with scarabs in close combat. What if they lost it from the harp of dissonance? Or maybe they beat the scarabs in close combat due to assistance (or sweeping advance).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are still the same model, so they have the same status effects on them - any used single use gone, armour gone, etc

Are they? The Ghost Ark just says that, on the roll of a 2 or more, add D3 models to the unit, it doesn't say that you must add D3 models that the unit has lost as casualties over the course of the battle. If I add D3 models that turned out to be from another warrior unit, then what precedent have you got to re-apply ES? What if a Scarab Base lost its armour save to ES, was killed, and then a Tomb Spyder added another base next turn? The wording is exactly the same, you add X of Y to the unit, so what you're saying is that the next Scarab Base added will suffer ES. You can't have necrons added to a unit by a Ghost Ark having ES reapplied when scarabs added to their unit do not.

Kevin949 wrote:Just to push the point here further home, the ghost ark rule does say it "repairs fallen necrons", it does not say it creates new ones or anything to that degree.

The start of that sentence you're quoting also says it expends energy; show me this 'energy' item or value you're expending, or you're not allowed to do it.

Whilst the Repair Barge rule doesn't say it creates new models, it doesn't say it revives the exact casualties the squad suffered, either. Even if it does "repair fallen necrons", it doesn't say they have to be from the squad being targeted. If I add D3 models that were part of a different warrior squad before they were killed, I've still followed the rule of adding D3 models, but there's no precedent at all for them suffering from any afflictions that other models in the squad did.

Pg 53, Necron codex, Ghost ark's "Repair Barge" rule - At the start of each Necron movement phase, a ghost ark can expend energy to repair fallen Necrons. Nominate a unit of Necron Warriors within 6"
(or embarked on) the ghost ark and roll a d6. if the score is a 2 or more, add D3 models to the unit - the models can move and act normally this turn. This cannot take the unit beyond it's starting size. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it is destroyed. On a roll of 1, place the models as described above, however the Ghost Ark is drained and suffers a glancing hit with no saves allowed."

A couple of important things to note here.
1.) It does not specify that you must add Warrior models, therefore Lords and Crypteks (the upgrade characters) can be added to the unit if they started the game attached to the Warrior Unit. This is due to the fact that because they are characters, they are considered to be apart of the unit for all rules purposes. i can provided a citation if required.
2.) Besides the fluff description of how the power works, it makes no mention of "Returning models to play." Since we aren't returning any models to play (yet we ARE adding models) that must make them NEW models.
3.) If we aren't adding new models, the models that we added to the squad would die immediately, as they did not return with any wounds.
I hate to say it, but it seems as though you are actually adding new models to a unit.
Oh boy.

Neronoxx wrote:
Pg 53, Necron codex, Ghost ark's "Repair Barge" rule - At the start of each Necron movement phase, a ghost ark can expend energy to repair fallen Necrons. Nominate a unit of Necron Warriors within 6"
(or embarked on) the ghost ark and roll a d6. if the score is a 2 or more, add D3 models to the unit - the models can move and act normally this turn. This cannot take the unit beyond it's starting size. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it is destroyed. On a roll of 1, place the models as described above, however the Ghost Ark is drained and suffers a glancing hit with no saves allowed."

A couple of important things to note here.

Neronoxx wrote:
1.) It does not specify that you must add Warrior models, therefore Lords and Crypteks (the upgrade characters) can be added to the unit if they started the game attached to the Warrior Unit. This is due to the fact that because they are characters, they are considered to be apart of the unit for all rules purposes. i can provided a citation if required.

Actually, you can just as well argue that RAW you can add D3 any model to the unit. For example, you could add D3 Necron overlords (even though there were no Overlords joined to the unit) etc. To be even more exact, there is nothing about the rule restricting the added units being from C:Necrons either...
Strict RAW interpretation is pretty silly in this case and RAI is obviously only Warriors can be added.

edit: fixed quoting

RAI is not obviously clear that only warrior models can be added. With the fact that you can join members of the royal court to warrior units, one can easily see the ghost ark repairing them as well.
The thing that dissuades players from adding overlords to the unit is that overlords and upgrade characters are different in that one is considered a part of the unit for all purposes, while overlords are not.
RAW one could argue that ANY model can be added. But if we assume to keep the models from codex: Necrons, a safe assumption, then we also see that you nominate a unit that must be a warrior unit, adding models that were originally apart of the unit.

RAI all Necrons that were part of the unit may be repaired.

RAI only models that were originally part of the unit may be added.

RAI the models are repaired back to their original condition, which means they return undamaged, unlike RP which just reanimates models. But repaired doesn't mean they replenish all their one use items.

No it doesn't, but again, we aren't returning models, we are adding them. That would allow one to argue that the one use items would be replenished.

Neronoxx wrote:
No it doesn't, but again, we aren't returning models, we are adding them. That would allow one to argue that the one use items would be replenished.

If you're going with the stance that the models are entirely new, and not 'recycled' then you have no permission to select any options those models may have. Base gear only.

So you're saying that i am allowed to now play with models outside of my army list?
This rule is horribly broken, but i can see what you're saying.
So what is the final say on this? Obviously this can't be played RAW. It's just too silly when taken with a loose interpretation.
So we have a couple of choices on how to play this;
1.) You can only return warriors to the unit,
2.) You can return any attached characters (Lords and Crypteks) because they count as part of the unit,
3.) You can only "add" warriors to the unit
4.) You can only "add" any attached characters (Lords and Crypteks) because they count as part of the unit and...
4A.) they keep their wargear or,
4B.) They don't keep their wargear.
I think these are our "reasonable" options, in that each has some support for it.
i personally would allow my opponents to play it as number 2, but that would mean pre-existing conditions would affect them.

I would take the least advantageous interpretation, as that is the ethical choice, when the rules are not 100% clear.

So # 1.

Ya #1

Much as i woudl love to essentially have immortal lords and crytpeks, i fear that may not have been the intention.

#1

Since the rule says "add" not "return", #3. Otherwise any new scarab bases your Spyders make will be likewise "returned".

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Since the rule says "add" not "return", #3. Otherwise any new scarab bases your Spyders make will be likewise "returned".

No necron codex sadly.

However.

With the first can you exceed the squad size?

Can you exceed the scarab squad size?

You can exceed the scarab sqaud size if you are creating them via Spiders.

The Ghost ark rule specifically says you cant take the unit beyond it's starting strength.

The rule is to add models to a warrior unit, keeping in mind to not exceed it's original size. So if the warrior unit has attached characters, they can be added back. After all characters are just another trooper in the unit.

Back on topic, Entropic strike says that the loss of armor is immediate, so any model removed as a casualty should be losing their save. RP says that models are returned, so they come back with no armor save. Yes, this will be a pain to keep track of. Ghost Ark actually adds models, so they will come in with armor saves intact.

This post was made during last edition (so certain statements may no longer apply), and it really never received much attention. Perhaps it will this time.

 Lordhat wrote:
The question should be "Does a unit with Ever Living have a 'memory' of it's status if it is removed as a casualty, and comes back?"
If yes, then:


A pinned or GtG unit remains so after passing it's RP roll.
A unit affected by Entropic Strike will continue to have an armour save of - after passing it's RP roll.
A unit under the effect of Weaken Resolve will still have a modified Ld Stat after passing it's RP roll.
A unit that has used the Emergency Disembark rule that turn will still be unable to do anything until the end of that turn after passing it's RP roll.

And probably more.

If no, then all these will be the opposite.

My opinion is that the answer should be yes it does. All of these effects happen to the unit for a specified duration; if the unit exists it is subject to these effects until that duration is over. The fact that the unit 'died' is inconsequential. RP does not create new units, it restores units to play.