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Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Manhattan, Ks

Hey everyone, I just recently played in a 2000pt tournament who had both a BA drop pod list and a SW drop pod list.

First round of the tournament i got put up against the BA list and lets just say at the end of the game all i had left were 1 unit of warriors and my 2 doom scythes...

The main problem wasn't that i wasn't killing enough but there were too many targets and lots of blocking drop pods...

My list consisted of...

Zandrekh - 185

Destroyer Lord - 190
MSS, Weave, Res Orb, Warscythe

2x Lords - 140
Res Orbs, Gauntlets of Fire

2x 20^Warrior Squads - 520

7^Immortals - 119
Gauss

8^Immortals - 136
Gauss

3^Destroyers - 120

Tomb Stalker - 150
Heat Ray

2x Doom Scythes - 350

Annihilation Barge - 90
Tesla


His list was something like this...

Reclusiarch - 135
Melta Bomb

5^Honor Guard - 155
Meltas

Drop Pod - 35

Librarian - 145
TA, SS, Lance, Shield

Honor Guard - 155
Meltas

Drop Pod - 35

3^Furiosos - 375
Frag Cannons

3^Drop Pods - 105

Corbulo - 105

2^Priests - 100

10^Death Company - 200
Boltguns

Drop Pod - 35

2x 10^Assault Squads - 420
Meltas

Drop Pods - Free

It was an objective based game and basicslly he blocked off 3 of the 4 objectives with drop pods and i didn't have enough guns to destroy all the pods and also deal with the dreads and Death Company...

I don't know exactly how to deal with this situation without either taking ether crystal crypteks, C'tans with Sentient Singularity, or Grey Knight Strike Squad allies...

Are there other ways necron players deal with drop pod lists or are these my only real options?


"Decadence Unbound..."

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Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Your list has zero counter assault/Assault units, which is part of the problem.

Wraiths fit this role very well, and having 1-2 squads of six, would help tremendously.

It also appears that the only meas you have of getting your Troops to objectives, is footslooging. It becomes much harder to walk big blobs around with a lot of droppods.

I'd consider cutting down on some of your blobs, and nabbing Night Scythes/Ghost Arks for transportation.

Also, you would be better served by taking Tesla Carbines on the Immortals, instead of Gauss Blasters. Carbines are much better Anti-infantry than Gauss Blasters.

I'd also consider swapping the Gauntlets of fire, for Warscythes on your lords. It's just a much better option.

Overall, lack of counter assault, and lack of maneuverability is going to hurt against things like Droppod lists.


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Drew_Riggio




Some main issues I see are no crypteks and only 1 stalker, if you drop the stalker you can add some fun toys like a Ghost Ark
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




i would trade the doomscythes in and fill out your immortals squads, and then give them a nightscythe each. use spare points to take 2 more annihilation barges.

then considering a lot of your firepower will now be twinlinked anyway, drop the stalker and take some wraiths to run with your D Lord.

definitely +1 on giving immortals tesla instead of gauss. if both are going to give armour saves, you might as well get more hits in and have a stronger overwatch.

id consider investing in MSS and warscythe for the lords leading the blobs too. considering how little counter-assault you have a little investment to deter standard assault squads wouldnt hurt. with the lord picking off powerfist sergeants a lot of the time and zandrekh giving USR you can be more aggressive with the blobs and not as afraid of being smashed in assaults.
either that or run the lords light with just res orb and beef up some other squads.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





Eaton Rapids, MI

Counter assault units. You need these. Even a tool up Overlord should make your opponent think twice before he drops anything within 18" of him. Obviously, he can't be everywhere at once, so having another counter assault unit would be ideal. Wraiths have been mentioned, but if you make some of the suggested drops (the stalker, the dooms, cut down the blobs a bit), you would have room to add some Crypteks, add a few Spiders and a few swarms of scarabs. Scarabs will just hop from pod to pod to pod, scoring you points in 1/6 of the games and otherwise clearing the road for your other guys.
Good luck!

Fly Molo of Dark Future Gaming!
http://darkfuturegaming.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Also he couldnt have 3 furioso's and the priests, he had DC so more then likely one was a DC dread.

40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
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Ohhh, Scarabs! Yeah, I hadn't even thought to use those guys to get rid of Drop Pods!
In fact, Scarab Farm seems like a pretty good counter, here.

 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





The Eternity Gate

I play against a lot of drop pods and I find that army is one where lychguard come into their own. Since termies can't take pods you are only going to be facing 3+ saves.

A unit of sword and board lychguard (especially with a CC overlord) will just butcher these units and since they are coming to you the normal shortcoming of being slow doesn't matter much.

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Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Manhattan, Ks

MarkyMark wrote:
Also he couldnt have 3 furioso's and the priests, he had DC so more then likely one was a DC dread.


Pretty sure they were furiosos, death company dreads can't take frag cannons...

Hmm... Maybe he did have just 3 troop choices... Will have to bring that up to him maybe I got the list a little wrong


It seems the consensus I'm getting is taking a good counter assault unit/units

I don't have much right now besides tons of scarabs, 10 Lychguard with warscythes, and 3 wraiths atm so I'll have to beef up my lords

May I ask have doom scythes become obsolete since the new FAQ? Because everyone keeps saying night scythes

"Decadence Unbound..."

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





To the recommendations of changing to tesla its not really worth it.

In overwatch a unit of 10 tesla would inflict 5 hits and unit of gauss would inflict 3.33 hits.

At 12" shooting against marines the gauss would inflict 13.33 hits and tesla would inflict 10 hits. And at 24" gauss would inflict 6.66 hits and tesla 10 hits. Plus the gauss is useful against the dreadnaughts. Since he's fighting drop podding marines odds are they are going to pod pretty close to him so he is more likely to be in 12" range than 24" so I think gauss is the better option here.

Anyway as has been stated you really need some mobility if he is screening off objectives, one solution could be to get a veiltek so that you could teleport to the other side of the wall. Other than that the nightscythes are a good option as well.

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
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Manhattan, Ks

Okay after hearing your suggestions i've revised my list to where i'm comfortable in my ability to handle these drop pod lists...

Zandrekh - 185

Overlord - 205
Warscythe, Res Orb, MSS. Weave, Phase Shifter

2x Lords - 210
Warscythe, Res Orb, Weave, MSS

10^Immortals - 170
Gauss

10^Immortals - 170
Tesla

2x 10^Warriors - 260

2^Night Scythes - 200

2x Tomb Stalkers - 300
Heat Ray

2x 10^Scarabs - 300

I like this list, it gives me good mobility, survivable troop choices, and plenty of counter offense

What do you think? Will this give the BA player a run for his money?

"Decadence Unbound..."

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Made in cn
Blackclad Wayfarer





From England. Living in Shanghai

Have you considered using an ADL? It can grant whatever unit goes to ground behind it a 2+ cover save. Cheap too.

Looking for games in Shanghai? Send a PM 
   
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Manhattan, Ks

I've been thinking about it, would be easy to hide the scarabs behind them for sure!

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

 buddha wrote:
Since termies can't take pods you are only going to be facing 3+ saves.



SW termies can take pods.
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

 Byte wrote:
 buddha wrote:
Since termies can't take pods you are only going to be facing 3+ saves.



SW termies can take pods.


Good thing his opponent is a Blood Angels player then, right?

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Sasori wrote:Your list has zero counter assault/Assault units, which is part of the problem.

Wraiths fit this role very well, and having 1-2 squads of six, would help tremendously.

It also appears that the only meas you have of getting your Troops to objectives, is footslooging. It becomes much harder to walk big blobs around with a lot of droppods.

I'd consider cutting down on some of your blobs, and nabbing Night Scythes/Ghost Arks for transportation.

Also, you would be better served by taking Tesla Carbines on the Immortals, instead of Gauss Blasters. Carbines are much better Anti-infantry than Gauss Blasters.

I'd also consider swapping the Gauntlets of fire, for Warscythes on your lords. It's just a much better option.

Overall, lack of counter assault, and lack of maneuverability is going to hurt against things like Droppod lists.


^ This. Definitely this. Everything there. ^

Also, I've found that drop pod lists is one of those rare times when a Monolith is truly useful, and will just further saturate the field with targets for the Melta, likely saving the Ghost Arks that accompany your Warriors. But its AP3 template is fantastic at dealing with units that have disembarked from a DP, and also highly useful at strategically moving your troops around the field after the DPs have hit.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

Crazyterran wrote:
 Byte wrote:
 buddha wrote:
Since termies can't take pods you are only going to be facing 3+ saves.



SW termies can take pods.


Good thing his opponent is a Blood Angels player then, right?


Yes, I suppose it is a good thing. Feel better?
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Zandrekh - 185

Overlord - 205
Warscythe, Res Orb, MSS. Weave, Phase Shifter

2x Lords - 210
Warscythe, Res Orb, Weave, MSS

10^Immortals - 170
Gauss

10^Immortals - 170
Tesla

2x 10^Warriors - 260

2^Night Scythes - 200

2x Tomb Stalkers - 300
Heat Ray

2x 10^Scarabs - 300


I'd suggest dropping one of the squads of Scarabs, for some Spyders. They are exceptionally cost effective MCs, and they spawn scarabs, increasing the power of your main swarm. You'll have to be a bit more tactical with your Scarab swarm. Overall, it's more optimal to Have Scarabs+Spyders, than either squad alone, as you only get maximized use when you have both.

What's the point of the Overlord in this list though? You're not using him to unlock a Second royal court, so he seems to be taking up space. I'd drop him, and Nab Two Annihilation Barges/ A Squad of Wraiths instead.

Also, are you putting those Lords into the Warrior Squads? It's goes from a cheap troop choice, to a fairly expensive unit when you end up adding those Lords in. Orbs are also not cost efficient on cheaper units like that. I'd consider dropping the Two lords as well. That could also lead to Two Annihilation Barges/ a Squad of Wraiths.

In addition, how fond are you of the Triarch Stalkers? You really don't have enough shooting to make a huge use of their Twin-linked Ability, and otherwise you end up paying a whole lot for a Two-shot Multi-melta. They aren't a bad choice by any means, but you could do A LOT with the 300 points.


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Made in us
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Manhattan, Ks

 Sasori wrote:
Zandrekh - 185

Overlord - 205
Warscythe, Res Orb, MSS. Weave, Phase Shifter

2x Lords - 210
Warscythe, Res Orb, Weave, MSS

10^Immortals - 170
Gauss

10^Immortals - 170
Tesla

2x 10^Warriors - 260

2^Night Scythes - 200

2x Tomb Stalkers - 300
Heat Ray

2x 10^Scarabs - 300


I'd suggest dropping one of the squads of Scarabs, for some Spyders. They are exceptionally cost effective MCs, and they spawn scarabs, increasing the power of your main swarm. You'll have to be a bit more tactical with your Scarab swarm. Overall, it's more optimal to Have Scarabs+Spyders, than either squad alone, as you only get maximized use when you have both.

What's the point of the Overlord in this list though? You're not using him to unlock a Second royal court, so he seems to be taking up space. I'd drop him, and Nab Two Annihilation Barges/ A Squad of Wraiths instead.

Also, are you putting those Lords into the Warrior Squads? It's goes from a cheap troop choice, to a fairly expensive unit when you end up adding those Lords in. Orbs are also not cost efficient on cheaper units like that. I'd consider dropping the Two lords as well. That could also lead to Two Annihilation Barges/ a Squad of Wraiths.

In addition, how fond are you of the Triarch Stalkers? You really don't have enough shooting to make a huge use of their Twin-linked Ability, and otherwise you end up paying a whole lot for a Two-shot Multi-melta. They aren't a bad choice by any means, but you could do A LOT with the 300 points.



The problem i have atm is only having 1 barge, only 3 wraiths, and not found of spending $33 on a spider model, let alone $99 on 3...

The overlords there because i needed a point buff and wanted a more survivable res orb model with my other immortal squad

Yes the lords are for the warrior squads, i guess i could drop points on the lords to bump each squad to 12, why do you say res orbs arn't cost effective?

I am very found of the stalkers actually both model, fluff, and game wise, in casual games i run 4 20^warrior squads so twin linking gauss makes me smile
But i like blowing up vehicles hence why i like the 2 shot melta




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote:
 Byte wrote:
 buddha wrote:
Since termies can't take pods you are only going to be facing 3+ saves.



SW termies can take pods.


Good thing his opponent is a Blood Angels player then, right?


Actually theres a SW drop pod player too who uses terminators... I didn't face him because i only played the one round against BA before i flat out gave up

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/12 05:30:38


"Decadence Unbound..."

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Made in ca
Bane Lord Tartar Sauce




On the cost effectiveness of Res Orbs, think about it like this: A res orb increases the chances of the models in your unit making their RP roll by 16.67%, or effectively it means that one more Necron out of 6 that die will get back up. Consider that a warrior is costed at about half of a res orb, that means that hypothetically speaking, for a res orb to pay back for itself, it has to cause TWO necron warriors to pass their RP roll. Statistically speaking, that means that unless a warrior squad has 12 or more warriors, the res orb isn't going to make the points back, and you will be better off using those points to buy more warriors.

And this is just taking points into account. When other factors, such as volume of fire, are taken into account, it becomes harder and harder to justify res orbs on units with fewer than 15 warriors.
   
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

You underestimate the benefit of a lord that gets back up 3 times in one game.
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





NecronLord3 wrote:You underestimate the benefit of a lord that gets back up 3 times in one game.

And you underestimate probability.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 azazel the cat wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:You underestimate the benefit of a lord that gets back up 3 times in one game.

And you underestimate probability.
No I accept the reality of doing it several times in actual games. 30 points is well worth spending on a 100-225 pt model with a 2+/3++ save. I do this with my D. Lord leading wraiths all the time. It's a bargain.
   
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Limerick

 Sasori wrote:
Your list has zero counter assault/Assault units, which is part of the problem.


No it isn't. The idea that you need to compete in every phase to compete at all is a fallacy, nothing more. A lot of the best lists out there have no assault elements whatsoever; it just happens that shooting is much more powerful than assault in 6th and if you shoot well then you don't need to assault.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:You underestimate the benefit of a lord that gets back up 3 times in one game.

And you underestimate probability.
No I accept the reality of doing it several times in actual games. 30 points is well worth spending on a 100-225 pt model with a 2+/3++ save. I do this with my D. Lord leading wraiths all the time. It's a bargain.


If you saying that you getting lucky trumps probability wasn't enough to discredit your argument, your advocation of taking the Orb for a unit where only one model can use it surely does.

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Nosebiter wrote:
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greensboro,northcarolina

well always play with gauss the problem with tesla carbines they donot have a ap value and with gauss with immortals have ap4 ,the cannot beat flyers you win with them and gauss you always glance on a 6 you ned lots of warroirs and some immortals i play with 20 warroirs and 10 immortals and 3 planes the game is objective base you have to build to get objectives and hold them or drive them off
   
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Your list has zero counter assault/Assault units, which is part of the problem.


No it isn't. The idea that you need to compete in every phase to compete at all is a fallacy, nothing more. A lot of the best lists out there have no assault elements whatsoever; it just happens that shooting is much more powerful than assault in 6th and if you shoot well then you don't need to assault.

Keep in mind, the context in question is a drop pod army, which is very likely to engage in assault.
   
Made in us
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LaPorte, IN

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Your list has zero counter assault/Assault units, which is part of the problem.


No it isn't. The idea that you need to compete in every phase to compete at all is a fallacy, nothing more. A lot of the best lists out there have no assault elements whatsoever; it just happens that shooting is much more powerful than assault in 6th and if you shoot well then you don't need to assault.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:You underestimate the benefit of a lord that gets back up 3 times in one game.

And you underestimate probability.
No I accept the reality of doing it several times in actual games. 30 points is well worth spending on a 100-225 pt model with a 2+/3++ save. I do this with my D. Lord leading wraiths all the time. It's a bargain.


If you saying that you getting lucky trumps probability wasn't enough to discredit your argument, your advocation of taking the Orb for a unit where only one model can use it surely does.


Its not luck. It's a 50% chance your 200+ point Lord will get back up. It is just as likely to get up every time as it is to fail it every time. And at 30pts, its a bargain.
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





NecronLord3 wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If you saying that you getting lucky trumps probability wasn't enough to discredit your argument, your advocation of taking the Orb for a unit where only one model can use it surely does.

Its not luck. It's a 50% chance your 200+ point Lord will get back up. It is just as likely to get up every time as it is to fail it every time. And at 30pts, its a bargain.

I hate having to explain the gambler's fallacy.

Yes, when observing a single die roll of 4+, it is a 50% chance that it will be in your favour, or 1/2. While each subsequent roll is not affected by the outcome of the previous roll, the overall probability of all three being in your favour is as such: (1/2)*(1/2)*1/2), or 1/8

And remember, the Rez Orb only changes a 5+ roll to a 4+ roll, so you're only looking at a 1/6 difference. Next time you play a game, count the number of times your Overlord rolls a 4 to get up from Ever-Living (because rolling a 5 or a 6 would stand him up anyway). The true benefit is only when you roll a natural 4 for your Ever-Living roll.

EDIT: Also, I cannot come up with a good reason why your Lord costs you 200+ points, so I think you're doing something wrong there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/13 04:26:18


 
   
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LaPorte, IN

 azazel the cat wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If you saying that you getting lucky trumps probability wasn't enough to discredit your argument, your advocation of taking the Orb for a unit where only one model can use it surely does.

Its not luck. It's a 50% chance your 200+ point Lord will get back up. It is just as likely to get up every time as it is to fail it every time. And at 30pts, its a bargain.

I hate having to explain the gambler's fallacy.

Yes, when observing a single die roll of 4+, it is a 50% chance that it will be in your favour, or 1/2. While each subsequent roll is not affected by the outcome of the previous roll, the overall probability of all three being in your favour is as such: (1/2)*(1/2)*1/2), or 1/8

And remember, the Rez Orb only changes a 5+ roll to a 4+ roll, so you're only looking at a 1/6 difference. Next time you play a game, count the number of times your Overlord rolls a 4 to get up from Ever-Living (because rolling a 5 or a 6 would stand him up anyway). The true benefit is only when you roll a natural 4 for your Ever-Living roll.

EDIT: Also, I cannot come up with a good reason why your Lord costs you 200+ points, so I think you're doing something wrong there.

I play Warhammer, not math hammer. Yor statistical analysis has no practical application, and regardless if 30 points gave the model a 6+ chance to resurrect it would still be worth it, especially when the model in question is your warlord and you are denying yor opponent the slay the warlord point.

D. Lords clock in at 190 with S. Weave, Res. Orb and MSS. Occasionally there has been a benefit to putting on a Tachyon arrow, though a rarity, which puts it over the 200 point mark. Regular overlords fully kitted out with Res. Orbs, S weave, phase shifter, MSS, and Warscythe is 205 points. There is a benefit to Pharon with some squads or the points are just left over, making it 225. So nope nothing wrong there.
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





NecronLord3 wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
NecronLord3 wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
If you saying that you getting lucky trumps probability wasn't enough to discredit your argument, your advocation of taking the Orb for a unit where only one model can use it surely does.

Its not luck. It's a 50% chance your 200+ point Lord will get back up. It is just as likely to get up every time as it is to fail it every time. And at 30pts, its a bargain.

I hate having to explain the gambler's fallacy.

Yes, when observing a single die roll of 4+, it is a 50% chance that it will be in your favour, or 1/2. While each subsequent roll is not affected by the outcome of the previous roll, the overall probability of all three being in your favour is as such: (1/2)*(1/2)*1/2), or 1/8

And remember, the Rez Orb only changes a 5+ roll to a 4+ roll, so you're only looking at a 1/6 difference. Next time you play a game, count the number of times your Overlord rolls a 4 to get up from Ever-Living (because rolling a 5 or a 6 would stand him up anyway). The true benefit is only when you roll a natural 4 for your Ever-Living roll.

EDIT: Also, I cannot come up with a good reason why your Lord costs you 200+ points, so I think you're doing something wrong there.

I play Warhammer, not math hammer. Yor statistical analysis has no practical application

Why did you even bother coming to the tactics forum, then? Clearly there is nothing for you here.
   
 
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