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I know, I know. "We're openng this up for discussion again?" I couldn't find any recent conversation on the topic, nor am I aware of a common answer.

It's the decade old argument; which troop choice is the best?

Obviously, that's a little black and white, so I'll try and break it down a bit.

To Tau players: which do you use and why? What's your tactics with them? What armies do you commonly play against?

To non-Tau players who stumbled in: which troop choice is the most troublesome to you and why?

Obviously not all players use one or the other exclusively. Tell us the more prevalent choice, or why you like a bit of both if that's the case

 Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:
I know, I know. "We're openng this up for discussion again?" I couldn't find any recent conversation on the topic, nor am I aware of a common answer.

It's the decade old argument; which troop choice is the best?

Obviously, that's a little black and white, so I'll try and break it down a bit.

To Tau players: which do you use and why? What's your tactics with them? What armies do you commonly play against?

To non-Tau players who stumbled in: which troop choice is the most troublesome to you and why?

Obviously not all players use one or the other exclusively. Tell us the more prevalent choice, or why you like a bit of both if that's the case

I'm always happier to face kroot. My basic flamers tear them up, and they can't do squat to my vehicle. Firewarriors on the other hand are a bigger threat if equipped with EMP grenades, they can create a pretty good sized threat zone if you run all your firewarriors with EMP.

-Matt

FW got a good boost this edition. The changes to rapid fire make it easier to play a moving gun line. And with 30/15 double tap ranges they can out gun marines and stay out of charge range.

I expect Kroot will be seen less in 6e even as speed bump. I can see them still used as a one shoot counter assault glass cannon.

Sadly, both are a little bit less useful than I would hope. I take firewarriors simply because they can be protected easier by sticking them in a devilfish if need be. A bonus is that the tau tanks are really hard to take out in 6th with dpods giving concealment.

I can't stand Kroot right now. The lack of an armor save and the inferior gun really makes firewarriors the better choice IMO.

I know Kroot can infiltrate and outflank, but if I put them near the enemy they will be torn to bits. They have no armor save so if they get into CC then all their attacks bounce off and they will lose combat by a huge margin.

Firewarriors can at least field a better gun.

6th edition settled the debate decisively in favor of fire warriors, for three reasons:

1) Fire warriors can now effectively use their long-range weapons. Not only can they now move and shoot at maximum range, they're able to rapid fire at 15" and can measure range at any time to ensure they're just barely 14.99999" from their target. Now that you'll be providing effective firepower outside suicidally close range you have a lot more to gain from the superior gun.

2) Allied IG platoons took over the meatshield role. Guardsmen cost fewer points per body, can take commissars to make sure they never run, and can take heavy weapons to shoot for a turn before they're charged. Unless you already have essential allies Kroot are now worthless in this role.

3) Hull points makes pulse rifles much more effective against vehicles. Instead of a token "I suppose it could happen" threat that depended on a lot of luck on the damage table to anything pulse rifles can now predictably kill AV 10-11 vehicles. A squad of fire warriors is now a credible threat to a Rhino, and that's a huge change in their favor.

They have very different roles. Remember, a kroot squad with ten kroot and five hounds (how I run them) is nearly half the price of a FW squad with a devilfish, has a much better capacity for stealing backfield objectives, and can tie up elite squads. I usually run two of each.

As IG, seeing Kroot make my day. Why? Because they have a worse armor save than me, and less numbers, so I feel better about my las-guns hahahaha

Kroot are not the best CCers. Less armour saves than IG guardsmen, less attacks/less armour saves than ork boyz and less everything against SM. They can hold their own against them sure, but god dam don firewarriors pack a punch.

Kroot are not a good scoring unit. They main purpose these days is to bubble-wrap important units like broadsides to protect them from cc. If Fieldcraft would be just something like Use cover and Move through cover, they would probably be ok holding objectives but now Firewarriors with grenades are just so much better. So if you consider how much scoring units you need, do not count Kroots.

I still rock large Kroot squads for bubble wrapping things, but that's about it. As a serious troops selection, FW wins hands down for me.

 Peregrine wrote:
6th edition settled the debate decisively in favor of fire warriors, for three reasons:

1) Fire warriors can now effectively use their long-range weapons. Not only can they now move and shoot at maximum range, they're able to rapid fire at 15" and can measure range at any time to ensure they're just barely 14.99999" from their target. Now that you'll be providing effective firepower outside suicidally close range you have a lot more to gain from the superior gun.

2) Allied IG platoons took over the meatshield role. Guardsmen cost fewer points per body, can take commissars to make sure they never run, and can take heavy weapons to shoot for a turn before they're charged. Unless you already have essential allies Kroot are now worthless in this role.

3) Hull points makes pulse rifles much more effective against vehicles. Instead of a token "I suppose it could happen" threat that depended on a lot of luck on the damage table to anything pulse rifles can now predictably kill AV 10-11 vehicles. A squad of fire warriors is now a credible threat to a Rhino, and that's a huge change in their favor.

This, except Kroot were also even further nerfed by cover save changes. Fire Warriors are actually pretty good now, and Kroot are really bad compared to allied IG Platoons/Ork Shootaz (for blocking), or Space Marine Scouts (for outflanking).

Fire Warriors are significantly better than Kroot in 6th. They actually have armor meaning that they will survive if a bolter shoots a them, and their awesome weapons actually give them a chance of doing SOMETHING to the enemy. The Kroot effectively have bolters and 2 CCWs, and with their low statline they won't be able to do much damage to a target even under the best of circumstances.

Yes but Kroot allows you to one-shot a fully reserved bike army, and look smug about it on the internet

 Jihallah wrote:
Yes but Kroot allows you to one-shot a fully reserved bike army, and look smug about it on the internet

True, but with a fully reserved bike army you'd lose at the end of T1 anyway.

Not to mention you'd have broken the 50% rule, eh.

I would have loved to hear the conversation.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:
Yes but Kroot allows you to one-shot a fully reserved bike army, and look smug about it on the internet

True, but with a fully reserved bike army you'd lose at the end of T1 anyway.

Not to mention you'd have broken the 50% rule, eh.

I would have loved to hear the conversation.

JD, that was a 5e ETC UK event, so at the time the army was totally legal to do full reserve. Just not very smart to do it against a kroot mob.

Ok, so one time, once, long ago, Kroot won a game.
What have you done for me lately?

-Matt

barnowl wrote:


JD, that was a 5e ETC UK event, so at the time the army was totally legal to do full reserve. Just not very smart to do it against a kroot mob.

I'm fully aware. Simply stating that this thread should be revolving around current rules.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I'm fully aware. Simply stating that this thread should be revolving around current rules.

That picture was posted as a joke, not as a serious argument.

I generally run firewarriors, but when I do decide to throw a kroot squad in I add 3 krootox to it to give it some muscle and range. Now if you were to compare the krootox to deathrain suits the suits are a better deal for the points if you're only looking at shooting with the krootox. I also don't own any orks or guard (and am rather poor atm) so I haven't really tried comparing krootox usefullness vs other allies, but since they cost so many points they're probably not the best choice. What I gain from having a kroot squad with krootox is a unit that is generally underestimated by opponents and can pulverize something (if it's the right something) that gets too close but doesn't have to chase it down to be useful due to the 48" range of the kroot gun. Since all weapons in the unit are rapid fire the unit can move around freely while taking the occasional pot shot.

The point is simple.

10 kroot cost as much as 7 firewarriors

While 10 kroot slightly out-gun the 7 firewarriors and can be deployed in special ways, they are markerlight-forbidden, and amazingly easy to kill-as in, they will die to pretty much anything.

A single turn of thunderfire cannon tremor rounds will be enough to eradicate your squad, and those are not even intended to kill anything.
Even a conscript mod will beat them up. no armor at all is just THAT bad.

Forterix wrote:
I generally run firewarriors, but when I do decide to throw a kroot squad in I add 3 krootox to it to give it some muscle and range. Now if you were to compare the krootox to deathrain suits the suits are a better deal for the points if you're only looking at shooting with the krootox. I also don't own any orks or guard (and am rather poor atm) so I haven't really tried comparing krootox usefullness vs other allies, but since they cost so many points they're probably not the best choice. What I gain from having a kroot squad with krootox is a unit that is generally underestimated by opponents and can pulverize something (if it's the right something) that gets too close but doesn't have to chase it down to be useful due to the 48" range of the kroot gun. Since all weapons in the unit are rapid fire the unit can move around freely while taking the occasional pot shot.

The problem with Krootox is that you can't split their fire. If you shoot the Kroot at infantry you have to waste your Krootox shots on something they suck at. If you shoot the Krootox at a vehicle target then all of your Kroot are wasted points. Either way you're just throwing away points on an inefficient weapon.

Oh, and three worse-than-autocannon guns for that point cost is laughable firepower. Take Broadsides and deathrains if you want to hurt vehicles.

Don't dismiss Kroot so lightly, their actually fairly solid, especially for a Tau troops choice. In 5th edition, I would have said they were hands down superior to Firewarriors. Sixth edition has leveled the playing field to the point where choosing between the two is now a difficult decision, but I still lean towards Kroot as the superior troops choice.

The thing that must be understood about Kroot is they are not close combat specialist, they are shooting units on par with firewarriors that are also capable in close combat and benefit from infiltrate. Because of there lower point cost and superior numbers, kroot actually inflict greater casualties against T3 and T4 provided they are in range. There superior numbers also make up for the greater casaulties they suffer due to cover saves being reduced to 5+, and in ruins, forest or jungle they are more resilient to ranged firepower than their firewarrior counterparts because of the extra bodies. They are potent enough in assault to destroy units like orkz and guard squads on the charge, while also giving them some protection against charging enemies. Units of space marines that have suffered heavy casualties can still charge a full squad of Firewarriors and expect to win, while they will get torn apart if charging a healthy kroot squad. And with the changes to vehicle assault rules, kroot can tear apart any non-walker vehicle with rear armor 10 that wanders into charge range without investing in 3 point per model grenades.

Kroot really come into there own once you learn how to use there shooting, assault and infiltration abilities in unison. There a lot more interesting and fun to run than firewarriors if nothing else. You should really incorporate at least two kroot squads into your army, you might be surprised.

I use both Kroot and Fire Warriors, depending on the army list.

My fire warriors work great when I have markerlights in droves, otherwise I don't load up on fire warriors.

Instead I take blocks of 20 kroot with a shaper, excellent infiltration units and just annoying to deal with. Sticking to cover they are very hard to remove, always remember to spread out.

I also take kroot hounds for extra cheap wounds and more attacks, furthermore krootox are wonderful this edition, being rapid fire autocannons on platforms that are str 6, though losing the ability to outflank.

Just like with anything, taking more kroot makes them better overall, just one squad only does so much.

What's great, is taking the big kroot blobs and not needing markerlights while being only slightly more expensive than fire warriors for double the guys. Volume of fire and not useless in melee, this means less markerlights are needed on the field.

At this point, I mix a squad of firewarriors with a blacksun filter for my bastion, a squad of eldar rangers, and a squad of kroot with armor and a shaper, The armor and the shaper may cost a bit much to be worth it, but I have been saved enough times by LD8 and that 6+ that I consider it essential.

My army is themed as a mobile infiltration cadre, and I love planting a few mobile tanks, then leaving the bulk of my troops to infiltrate and a bunch of other units to deepstrike. It's a lot more fun than just deploy everything and go.

I find that when people see firewarriors on an objective, that squad just gets squashed because of the priority placed on it. Every single time, that squad holding the objective gets hit with everything my opponent can throw at it. So I started infiltrating kroot onto the objectives, and things started to go a little better for me. They are a fairly cheap squad that I can place wherever I want. I don't mind losing models that much, and if I have to go to ground to hold onto that objective, I am not losing firepower that I am relying on. There's also the fact that my opponents then have to decide between shooting at the scary firewarriors holding a lascannon, or the squishy (but hidden) Kroot holding an objective.
It's also nice that they can handle themselves in an assault (for that one unit that gets softened up by my whole army but doesn't quite die).

If you're adding a shaper in with Kroot then paying for armor you're getting an armor save that is removed from almost any weapon to save a cheap model on a 1/6 chance. That and you're removing Kroots one real advantage, being cheap.

And I'd recommend putting Broadsides in bastions instead of firewarriors. It really upsets people to find A14 broadsides.

I guess the idea of infiltrating and going to ground may not be that bad. They still get slaughtered when hit with any template weapon. The problem is that a combination of poor leadership and no inherent save makes them a terrible holding unit IMO.

Templates are always a risk, but being smart with their movement and your target priority mitigates that a bit. And I agree that the numbers say it isn't worth it. However. Even though anecdotal evidence doesn't count, in my personal experience paying those extra points keeps my Kroot around a lot longer and has been the difference between a loss and a win quite a few times. I seem to constantly roll 8 for their LD, or make saves in combat when it really matters.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And I'd recommend putting Broadsides in bastions instead of firewarriors. It really upsets people to find A14 broadsides.

Now this is very true. I tried the broadside tower once and it was niiice. But I don't use broadsides very much (I only just recently got my second one). And with 2 railheads, a prism, two stealth teams, a lascannon, and shadowsun, I haven't really needed them.

Good to see kroot getting some love in 6th. All forums seem to say FW hands down but I disagree. I favor kroot tbh but they're different tools for different jobs.

Firewarriors are hands down better than Kroot, if I want a counter assault screen, an allied guard infantry platoon will do the job better, more cost efficiently and with special weapons.

I field an army with around 40 fire warriors and no kroot.

Tau dont need CC this edition as I feel its a little weaker. Personaly I like the 4+ save and now that rapid fire weapons can move and shoot 30 inches for tau then they are extremely effective.

40 fire warriors is alot of 30 inch killing. Kroot, not so much.

Also s5 really helps as you can glance vehicles to death etc.