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I'm currently in the process of building (and painting!) a White Scars army - I now have one full bike squad and two land speeders ready to go. One thing I've recognised I need to include is some heavy anti-tank firepower.

Typhoon landspeeders can pop lighter vehicles OK, but will struggle against land raiders, heavier Russes, and the like. I'm planning on having MM attack bikes in by standard bike squads, but these are single shot, and involve getting closer to the enemy then is comfortable with non-expendable troop units.

For the pure White Scars list I'm running (only bikes, speeders and scouts) there are therefore two viable choices for heavy anti-tank firepower: double multi-melta landspeeders, and attack bike squadrons.

Both of these have changed significantly in 6th edition, which means I haven't seen enough of either unit (none, in the double MM landspeeder case) to make a firm decision. Bikes are harder to autokill, get jink, can choose to turbo-boost later but get a reduced save compared to 5th edition when they do. Landspeeders also get jink, and can fire two weapons on the move, but now can be penetrated, have hull points, and are much easier to hit in CC.

As far as I can see, the units each have the following advantages and disadvantages:

Attack bikes

+ Can't be one-shotted except by S10 weapons
+ Power armour save against AP4 or worse weapons
+ Lower profile and smaller model - easier to hide behind terrain
+ Can't suffer vehicle damage results reducing effectiveness
+ Can fight in close combat is all else fails
+ Can contest objectives
+ Can fire overwatch if charged
- Vulnerable to S3 and poison (Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar)
- Can be locked in close combat
- Subject to morale checks (lessened by ATSKNF)
- Generally more vulnerable to psykers
- 50 points per multi-melta shot


Double multi-melta landspeeders

+ Immune to S3 / poison
+ Faster turbo-boost for redeployment
+ Deep-strike (not sure if this is useful - thoughts?)
+ 40 points per multi-melta shot
+ More mobile (don't have to worry about difficult/impassable terrain between speeder and the target)
+ Can't be locked in close combat
+ Immune to morale checks
+ Affected by fewer psychic powers
- More vulnerable to AP4 or worse attacks, especially in close combat (lower WS, no armour)
- Can't contest objectives
- Combat effectiveness can be degraded due to vehicle damage chart
- Easier to one-shot due to vehicle damage chart


So the trade off seems to be the cheaper, faster but more fragile speeders, or more expensive, less mobile but tougher bikes...

What are people's thoughts on this, and what are your experiences in 6th edition with each unit?

How about comparing the points cost as well.

Personaly, I prefer MM-MM landspeeders. I dont play white scars but a mechanised SM army. So saturating the table with armor values is the main advatanage for me.

If I was playing an all-infantry army, I might chose the bikes so the armoured landpseeders dont stick out like a sore thumb.

Edit : also with a fast unit that needs to be within 12 to be effective, close combat shouldnt be a massive concern unless your oponent is actively screening his tanks with mele units.

good point, I've edited the original post to reflect this

Your logic makes sense, in my army the only other vehicles will be other landspeeders, at least to start with - I'm planning on running 2-3 typhoons and maybe 1-2 dual heavy flamer variants for anti-hoard firepower.

Close-combat wise, I have to take into account battle tanks sitting with other enemy units and counter-assaulters, and also heavy assault vehicles whose occupants can still charge me if I pop their transport (land raiders being the obvious example).

I like attack bikes for melta. I have found landspeeders die far too easily to regular troops in melta range. With only 2 HP the only way I field them is in the back launching missiles. Bikes in my experience are able to get in and back out with minimal losses.

Go with the MM attack bikes. They don't loose much mobility and are more durable.

Also, there are a lot of times that locking down a unit with assaulting attack bikes can win a game for you. You can pull troops off an objective, prevent a heavy weapon squad from shooting, soak a deadly overwatch for your troop bike units, ect.

Also, you get a twin linked Bolter and grenades, so the bike has a s6 shot, s4 twin Bolter, or s3 blast to compliment the melta. Plus the twin Bolter can help cause grounding checks for flying MC.

For purely MM I'd say attack bikes.......but typhoon/MM land speeders are great

I think the two choices are interchangeable. Both have merits and flaws in slightly different circumstances. How much terrain do you play with? What kinds? What sort of armies do you fight? Little things in your local area can sway the choice one way or the other.

Personally, I like speeders for my fast melta delivery. I think attack bikes might be a little better this edition though. Not so much better that I'm switching. I like the way speeders look and play.

i just can't get over that speeders are so frail. how do you even keep them out there? they die immediately to anything?!

g0atsticks wrote:
i just can't get over that speeders are so frail. how do you even keep them out there? they die immediately to anything?!

There are a lot of ways.

Line of sight. You are fast enough to keep behind cover until it is time to spring out and shoot. The only time you should be in the open is after you've blown up that land raider.

Target saturation. Your opponent only has a finite amount of long range anti-tank fire. If all he has to shoot at is your speeders, yah, they are going down. But if he has to choose between the speeders, vindicators, predators, rhinos full of troops, etc. your speeders might get a few extra turns to live. And in those turns, they will kill something. And if they do get priority fire, then your other units get to live instead. Massed small arms can bring you down, but generally you should have finished your job at that point.

And when all else fails, you still have the jink save.

It doesn't matter that the MM speeder if frail. If played well, you should be able to put your nose against something that costs 3-4 times what you do and turn it into slag. Living afterwards is just gravy if it happens. Such is the life of suicide melta.

 Nevelon wrote:

g0atsticks wrote:
i just can't get over that speeders are so frail. how do you even keep them out there? they die immediately to anything?!

It doesn't matter that the MM speeder if frail. If played well, you should be able to put your nose against something that costs 3-4 times what you do and turn it into slag. Living afterwards is just gravy if it happens. Such is the life of suicide melta.

Honestly taking needing to hit, rolling to pen, rolling a 3+ to blow it up into account you have fairly mediocre odds of succeeding.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

g0atsticks wrote:
i just can't get over that speeders are so frail. how do you even keep them out there? they die immediately to anything?!

It doesn't matter that the MM speeder if frail. If played well, you should be able to put your nose against something that costs 3-4 times what you do and turn it into slag. Living afterwards is just gravy if it happens. Such is the life of suicide melta.

Honestly taking needing to hit, rolling to pen, rolling a 3+ to blow it up into account you have fairly mediocre odds of succeeding.

Perhaps I wrote these guys off to soon. My friends always shoot it first because its such an easy target.

MM attack bikes are the clear choice for BA, because they can be given FNP. They can also be given rerolls to hit by divination libby.

For other marines, its more complex. The double multimelta firepower is nice, but it makes them a very tempting target. And more worthwhile to power through the jink save.

suicide speeders get the job done but bikes are more survivable

MM AB are great because if you position them well you can flat out behind cover in lieu of firing if your shooting phase is going off schedule. ie you plan to dedicate them and a devastator squad to killing a vehicle, the devs do it easily and now you are out in no mans lad with the bikes, simply flat out back. LS can do this as well but I find they are too hard to hide. Also combat tactics with bikes of any type is insanely useful.

I forgot about combat tactics with bikes. See, my BA don't get that. Red Corsair has a great point there.

Can't speeders flat out as well? But the speeders are road pizza if they get assaults. Krak grenades for the emprah!

Bikes by far, their durability is really key. That and they survive assault, can deny objectives, and can go what, 24 all out vs 18 for the speeder i believe?

I prefer suicide dual-hf speeders, they're cheaper, not a big loss if you lose it, and a good thing to deep strike with. Though obv the best is still typhoon speeders overall (for speeder variants anyways), but yeah, for MMs ABs are definitely the way to go.

MM bikes, reason being if you fail a 5+ save you don't auto-lose a bike, but you can with a speeder.

I think I'm leaning towards the bikes - in the army I'm putting together, I'm really short on numbers, and have no vehicles apart from other speeders to act as a distraction. MM attack bikes seem to have the best synergy...

Why not use MM Attack Bikes in your bike squads? You can combat squad to make more use of it.

I'm planning on doing that as well, but you only get one shot making them far more unreliable, while at the same time risking a scoring unit much closer to the enemy...

I'd say the MM Attk bike squads 2x3 are lethal to armor. But I have a soft spot for the typhoon/MM speeder. Something about missiles all game from the backfield, and if something gets too close reaching out with the MM just does it for me.

 Hedgehog wrote:

For the pure White Scars list I'm running (only bikes, speeders and scouts) there are therefore two viable choices for heavy anti-tank firepower: double multi-melta landspeeders, and attack bike squadrons.

Option 3:
I have had luck with scout bikers, with sarg packing a combi-melta and melta bombs. 85 points of cheap hurt. Small enough unit I can usually hide it and get a shot/charge off.

-Matt