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I have started running Pedro Kantor and joining him to a Thunderfire Cannon behind my Ageis line. According to the Artillery rules, he is then granted Toughness 7. In the Instant Death rules, it says that Instant Death is decided after all modifiers. So does this make Pedro's T7 his instant death stat, or is it still T4 for the purposes of Instant Death. Had a disagreement about this at a game store recently.

 MADLarkin wrote:
I have started running Pedro Kantor and joining him to a Thunderfire Cannon behind my Ageis line. According to the Artillery rules, he is then granted Toughness 7. In the Instant Death rules, it says that Instant Death is decided after all modifiers. So does this make Pedro's T7 his instant death stat, or is it still T4 for the purposes of Instant Death. Had a disagreement about this at a game store recently.

For the purposes of wounding him, you'd use the T7. (Assuming that the TFC is artillery)

However, I believe you use the Model's own T value when working out Instant Death so any S8 shot would ID Pedro.

Toughness is model by model, but when shooting at a unit you use majority, or in the case of artillery toughness 7.

He counts as toughness 7 for being wounded so long as the artillery is still around, but is still toughness 4.

Im going to disagree. T-7 for both wounding and ID. Can't single the Ic model out now. The majority toughness is used and He will be tough 7 Till the cannon is gone. The TFC is artillery.

Lungpickle wrote:
Can't single the Ic model out now.

And they're not. Using the model's own Toughness to determine Instant Death is not singling him out.

Lungpickle wrote:
Im going to disagree. T-7 for both wounding and ID. Can't single the Ic model out now. The majority toughness is used and He will be tough 7 Till the cannon is gone. The TFC is artillery.

You can disagree all you want, but without proof and/or evidence you're just spouting in the wind.

P 46 states for shooting at artillery you always use the toughness of the guns.

This means for determining the units toughness, you use 7 for wound attempts. It does not state you count the models as toughness 7, you simply attempt to wound the gun toughness so long as the gun is present. Each models toughness does not change.

Pedro does not "gain" T7. He has his own stats. The rule simply states that you use the T7 of the gun if any remains to wound. Wounds are then allocated to the closest model first. If Pedro is assigned any wound that is x2 his Toughness, then he will suffer ID.

Dosent the TFC come with a Techmarine gunner?

If so isn't the unit 1 TFC, 1 Techmarine gunner, and 1 Pedro Kantor, when joined by Pedro Kantor.

If so then the unit is T4, as that is now the majority toughness for the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Dosent the TFC come with a Techmarine gunner?

If so isn't the unit 1 TFC, 1 Techmarine gunner, and 1 Pedro Kantor, when joined by Pedro Kantor.

If so then the unit is T4, as that is now the majority toughness for the unit.

That's for normal units.
Artillery units always use the Artillery's toughness (for shooting).

edit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Dosent the TFC come with a Techmarine gunner?

If so isn't the unit 1 TFC, 1 Techmarine gunner, and 1 Pedro Kantor, when joined by Pedro Kantor.

If so then the unit is T4, as that is now the majority toughness for the unit.

While true for normal squads, I don't think that applies when shooting at Artillery. That explains why platforms with several crew are still considered T7 for wounding purposes (as per p.46).

Then again, it does depend on how you look at it. Either way, the ID threshold is still on a model by model basis. Pedro still gets ID'd by S8+ even if he's attached to a Thunderfire Cannon.

DoW

 grendel083 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Dosent the TFC come with a Techmarine gunner?

If so isn't the unit 1 TFC, 1 Techmarine gunner, and 1 Pedro Kantor, when joined by Pedro Kantor.

If so then the unit is T4, as that is now the majority toughness for the unit.

That's for normal units.
Artillery units always use the Artillery's toughness (for shooting).

Okay thanks for the clarification.

So, on page 16 where it says that instant death is decided after all modifiers to toughness, this doesn't include the toughness being modified to 7 by being in a artillery unit?

 MADLarkin wrote:
So, on page 16 where it says that instant death is decided after all modifiers to toughness, this doesn't include the toughness being modified to 7 by being in a artillery unit?

Correct.

Glad we've put that to bed.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 MADLarkin wrote:
So, on page 16 where it says that instant death is decided after all modifiers to toughness, this doesn't include the toughness being modified to 7 by being in a artillery unit?

Correct.

Glad we've put that to bed.

DoW

A proper rebuttal woyld have read something along the lines of; the rules on page 16 specify modifiers, but using the guns toughness isnt a modifier. Pedro is never actually T7.

Thank you all, so modifiers are only things that actually change the stat of the model, like the mark of Nurgle?

 MADLarkin wrote:
Thank you all, so modifiers are only things that actually change the stat of the model, like the mark of Nurgle?

That is correct.