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I started to necro and take over this post here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490961.page#5114691, so I decided to start my own.


The "Invisi" Council is a Fritz creation. You can read about it here: http://www.fritz40k.com/2012/12/eldar-seer-council-tactics-invisi.html#comment-form

I loved the idea of the nigh-unkillable "Invisi" Council and decided this was the way for me to get back into Eldar, an army I dropped about 15 years ago.

Please help this PA player find the way of Saim-Hann.

Eldrad - 210
Telepathy Powers hoping for Invisibility

Farseer - 140
- jet bike
- Runes of Warding
- Runes of Witnessing
- Fortune

Warlocks - 452
- x8
- jet bikes
- Embolden
- Enhance
- Destructor x6
- Spears x4

Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent- 215
- x5
- Twin-Linked Starcannon
- Shurikan Cannon

Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent- 215
- x5
- Twin-Linked Starcannon
- Shurikan Cannon

Guardian Jet Bike Squadron w/ Warlock - 205
- x6
- Shurikan Cannons x2
- Warlock
- Embolden
- Spear

Rangers - 152
- x8

War Walker Squadron - 180
- x3
- Dual Scatter Lasers x3

Fire Prism - 115

Fire Prism - 115

Total = 1999

Is it just me or is the easiest way to deal with this to just kill the troops? 7 bikers and 6 rangers thats it at 2k? I hope you are reserving them, because otherwise people will just focus them down and make you lose all the objective missions. That still may happen when they arrive anyway.

This list is intimidating right up until you meet someone who has one of the hard counters like Runic weapons, flyers, shadow in the warp, better CC, or weapons that ignore cover. I imagine any decent CSM list with the baleflamer will make you cry since you have no way to kill it reliably and it ignores your cover and armor and is str6.

While I see the idea behind it, I really think this idea will thrive on people who dont know how to counter and/or properly deal with stuff like this and wilt before those that do.

In my opinion, way too deathstar, not nearly enough support. I'd skip the deathstar and go more balanced.

Looks good, just a couple of tweaks.

Eldrad is good, but he has to follow close by in a wave serpent to keep invisibility on the council. This hinders the mobility and effectiveness. Just get another farseer on a bike with the cheap powers, a spear, stones and maybe runes of witnessing. Then you have a farseer to keep mobile with your seers.

Dont give a warlock both a spear and destructor. Drop a destructor and a spear. Spears are best on farseers, who have better BS.

Starcannons are horribly overpriced for what they do. Drop down to shuriken cannons.Also, one unit of fire dragons should cover the AT duty. Singing spears are still S9 against armor, and a mobile GJB squad with a s.cannon and a spear can deal with most tanks easily. Fragons for the land raiders and other hard targets, but prisms, walkers and the bikes can deal with the rest. Against a parking lot, multicharges with the seer council will solve that problem real quick.

The two troop units is a bit of a problem. The jetbikes are decently durable, but you just dont have many units. Another 3 man jetbike squad or 5 man ranger squad would be nice.

Haegr77 wrote:
Is it just me or is the easiest way to deal with this to just kill the troops? 7 bikers and 6 rangers thats it at 2k? I hope you are reserving them, because otherwise people will just focus them down and make you lose all the objective missions. That still may happen when they arrive anyway.

This list is intimidating right up until you meet someone who has one of the hard counters like Runic weapons, flyers, shadow in the warp, better CC, or weapons that ignore cover. I imagine any decent CSM list with the baleflamer will make you cry since you have no way to kill it reliably and it ignores your cover and armor and is str6.

While I see the idea behind it, I really think this idea will thrive on people who dont know how to counter and/or properly deal with stuff like this and wilt before those that do.

In my opinion, way too deathstar, not nearly enough support. I'd skip the deathstar and go more balanced.

So you are saying no one should play Eldar because they have a 4th Edition Codex?

There is not a single tool in that book that can counter what you listed.
Runic Weapons - Good thing I have Eldrad who can attempt the same powers more than once
Shadows of the Warp - IIRC Runes of Witnessing is all I can do for that.
Flyers - Old ruleset, gotta give it up and ignore them. A single quad gun probably won't do much but I could make the Rangers squad 5 man instead of 8 and that should get the points.
Better CC - not my focus; must avoid until the unit is whittled down
Weapons that ignore cover - kill them before they kill me...

Eldar is a tough army to play. There is no doubt about that. Hopefully you have more specific suggestions as to how this list can be IMPROVED.

Maugun Rha behind an Icarus las cannon is actually hilariously effective at downing fliers and well every other vehicle

 Red Corsair wrote:
Maugun Rha behind an Icarus las cannon is actually hilariously effective at downing fliers and well every other vehicle

I've heard that but it really does not play to the strategy of this list. Good thought though toward flier defense.

I don't think that this would work, Eldrad couldn't cast Invisibility on the Council because he wouldn't be able to draw Line of Sight to it. As far as I know, only Eldar psychic powers from their codex do not require Line of Sight, rulebook powers still do.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Looks good, just a couple of tweaks.

Eldrad is good, but he has to follow close by in a wave serpent to keep invisibility on the council. This hinders the mobility and effectiveness. Just get another farseer on a bike with the cheap powers, a spear, stones and maybe runes of witnessing. Then you have a farseer to keep mobile with your seers.

Dont give a warlock both a spear and destructor. Drop a destructor and a spear. Spears are best on farseers, who have better BS.

Starcannons are horribly overpriced for what they do. Drop down to shuriken cannons.Also, one unit of fire dragons should cover the AT duty. Singing spears are still S9 against armor, and a mobile GJB squad with a s.cannon and a spear can deal with most tanks easily. Fragons for the land raiders and other hard targets, but prisms, walkers and the bikes can deal with the rest. Against a parking lot, multicharges with the seer council will solve that problem real quick.

The two troop units is a bit of a problem. The jetbikes are decently durable, but you just dont have many units. Another 3 man jetbike squad or 5 man ranger squad would be nice.

Re. Eldrad vs second bike seer - I was battling with this choice. To use eldrad on foot would mean he will ride with one of tr fire dragon units. Otherwise I might spend the points on spirit stones for both jet seers. Is that a good investment to ensure rolling invisibility?

Re. The serpent starcannons - I was thinking I needed some AP 2 action to fry the terminators that are bound to pop out of the landraiders those fire dragons roast. Should I def drop?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Heartless wrote:
I don't think that this would work, Eldrad couldn't cast Invisibility on the Council because he wouldn't be able to draw Line of Sight to it. As far as I know, only Eldar psychic powers from their codex do not require Line of Sight, rulebook powers still do.

Blessings need LOS? I need to check the BGB about that. That's a game changer.

You only need spirit stones on the seer trying to cast invis. Leave fortune on the other seer, it is a sure thing. Could get spirit stones here if you wanted to pick up doom. You may not get invis, but then you have some other decent powers to cast from telepathy. Invisibility is warp charge 2, meaning without spirit stones you wont even be able to cast it. It is your best bet to get invis and rolling powers. Eldrad just cant keep up and shroud the council. Eldrad cant get a bike, and even with a 24" range the council will be out of invisibility range turn 2. He would also need LOS, as all psychic powers require them unless stated otherwise(like eldar book powers)

You have some rangers and 2 fire prisms, which can do decent damage against terminators. Small squads of terminators(4 or less) can be dealt with by weight of fire from the walkers or even beaten by the council. The starcannons are just too expensive and under perform. Serpents are too fragile of platforms now to sink that many points into as well.

All psychic powers in the main rulebook require LOS unless otherwise stated pg 67. It makes the standard Eldar powers much more attractive for Eldar lists that are still mechanised, since all the good ones don't require LOS.

As for the list, I would start by dumping the Rangers, swapping the Serpents to Shuriken Cannons or at most Scatter Lasers (I've lost count of the number of times I have showed people on these board the mathhammer for why Starcannons are terrible), dumping Warding from the Seer (they don't stack anymore and Eldrad already has them), and trimming a few of the upgrades from the Council. You don't need that many Destructors since you can't overwatch them and you will get stuck in combat for a big chunk of the game and you shouldn't need more than 1-2 Spears since you have Dragons for dealing with heavy armour. Realistically you probably need to change Eldrad for a Jetbike Seer as well, but that has a few more options involved.

Every single one of these points that you trim off/save should be going into scoring units. Two scoring units is crazy at 1000pts let alone 2000, and when they are as fragile as Eldar ones you need more not less. For my infantry lists I aim for 6 scoring units at 2k as a minimum and usually have 8 through allies, mech lists probably a little less. Ideally you would want to ally to someone with good or numerous scoring units (i.e Marines or Guard), but since you probably don't have to points to make that work (HQ tax mostly) you just have to spam Eldar troops. While I wouldn't normally recommend it, spamming 3 man Jetbike units which can reserve are probably your best bet, you don't have room to get enough Avengers in Serpents, and Guardians on foot are a bad idea without an Avatar to keep them around/draw fire.

Well, the invisible Council works better if on foot. Eldrad could join but could still be a liability since he cannot FoF.
I ran a Seer Council with a Fortuneseer and Fuegan and haven't yet lost a game. It works well at the 1500 pt level. However, I find that Eldar doesn't scale up very well.

Well you got the core part of it right but you don't have near enough troop power at all. You need atleast 2 x 6 GJB or use dire avengers instead but atleast 20. Drop starcannons they aren't very good anymore. I use waveserpents with a TL shuricannon and the underslung shuricannon.

Eldrad may not be the best choice for a second psyker. Most people I see trying to get invisibility just pay for an extra power on one of their seers. Try just putting 2 jet seers instead of eldrad, especially since he's not on a bike. 1 seer with fortune, doom, and eldritch storm. The other with the 3 or 4 cheapest powers and exchanged them in divination and telepathy.

Hopefully this helps. Good luck

Okay, I took all the constructive criticism into consideration and came up with the following:

Jet Seer - 163
Farseer
Jetbike
RoWarding
RoWitnessing
Fortune
Spirit Stones
Spear

Jet Seer - 158
Farseer
Jetbike
RoWarding
RoWitnessing
Doom
Spirit Stones
Spear

Seer Council - 440
Warlock x8
Jetbike x8
Embolden
Enhance
Destructor x6

Fire Dragons - 190
Fire Dragons x5
Wave Serpent
Shuri Cannon
TL Shuri Cannon

Fire Dragons - 190
Fire Dragons x5
Wave Serpent
Shuri Cannon
TL Shuri Cannon

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 202
GJB x6
Shuri Cannon x2
Warlock
Embolden

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 76
GJB x3
Shuri Cannon

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 76
GJB x3
Shuri Cannon

Rangers - 95
Rangers x5

War Walker Squadron - 180
WW x3
Dual Scatter Lasers x3

Fire Prism - 115

Fire Prism - 115

Total = 2000 even


Better? I think this brings a lot more shots and relies on high ROF. I'm definitely concerned though min GJB squads are too fragile to even be worth 76 points. I'd like to hear more feedback, please.

Wait.... what? you have spirit stones on your farseers but only 1 power each. Drop the stones on the fortune seers, grab 3 powers on the farseer exchanging for the better chance at invis.

zephoid wrote:
Wait.... what? you have spirit stones on your farseers but only 1 power each. Drop the stones on the fortune seers, grab 3 powers on the farseer exchanging for the better chance at invis.

I just read the FAQ after your comment. So I need to purchase powers in order to be allowed to exchange those powers for Rulebook powers? Do I have that right?

Back to the calculator!


EDIT:

Jet Seer - 143
Farseer
Jetbike
RoWarding
RoWitnessing
Fortune
Spear

Jet Seer - 198
Farseer
Jetbike
RoWarding
RoWitnessing
Doom/Rulebook Power
Guide/Rulebook Power
Mind War/Rulebook Power
Spirit Stones
Spear

Seer Council - 440
Warlock x8
Jetbike x8
Embolden
Enhance
Destructor x6

Fire Dragons - 180
Fire Dragons x5
Wave Serpent
TL Shuri Catapult
TL Shuri Cannon

Fire Dragons - 180
Fire Dragons x5
Wave Serpent
TL Shuri Catapult
TL Shuri Cannon

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 202
GJB x6
Shuri Cannon x2
Warlock
Embolden

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 76
GJB x3
Shuri Cannon

Guardian Jetbike Squadron - 76
GJB x3
Shuri Cannon

Rangers - 95
Rangers x5

War Walker Squadron - 180
WW x3
Dual Scatter Lasers x3

Fire Prism - 115

Fire Prism - 115

Total = 2000 even

I like the list. Remember that if you have cover the invisicouncil doesn't need bikes at all. My fiend is achieving great results with a foots logging invisi-council (with eldrad) and running 9 war walkers with scatter lasers. He has 2 squads of rangers, 2 10 man dire avengers in serpents, 1 guardian jet bike squad (5 man) 2 fire warrior squads (also in serpents) and a wraithlors or 2. Regardless, if you pull off the invisibility, seeing as most armies don't have a whole lot that denies cover (that's not always the case), the council can be almost unstoppable. Just spearhead the council right into them and force your opponent to fire at more imminent threats than the little troop selections. The wave serpents / fire dragons, combined with the council should be more than adequate for that purpose, so log as you are playing aggressively. I agree that eldar are a tough art to play right now, but if you choose your targets well, and fight only when and where it's in your best interest, they can table just about anybody!

Erik the Red wrote:
I like the list. Remember that if you have cover the invisicouncil doesn't need bikes at all. My fiend is achieving great results with a foots logging invisi-council (with eldrad) and running 9 war walkers with scatter lasers. He has 2 squads of rangers, 2 10 man dire avengers in serpents, 1 guardian jet bike squad (5 man) 2 fire warrior squads (also in serpents) and a wraithlors or 2. Regardless, if you pull off the invisibility, seeing as most armies don't have a whole lot that denies cover (that's not always the case), the council can be almost unstoppable. Just spearhead the council right into them and force your opponent to fire at more imminent threats than the little troop selections. The wave serpents / fire dragons, combined with the council should be more than adequate for that purpose, so log as you are playing aggressively. I agree that eldar are a tough art to play right now, but if you choose your targets well, and fight only when and where it's in your best interest, they can table just about anybody!

That does seem to bring a lot more fire power to bear. (But how does he have 9 WWs as well as Wraithlords?) I was hoping to play a completely different style than I am used to, namely Space Wolves. The speed of the jet bikes is what I was excited about. But do Saim-Hann style armies get their butts whooped in 6th?

IMO i think the invisi council is vastly overrated. Getting into combat was never the problem for seer councils. 3+/4++ with rerolls was always reliable to get them across the board. The problem was 2+ saves. With no AP2 you take forever to go through terminators and can get hit back pretty hard. You are spending ~55 points per model but dont have the unit presence of that point cost.

Instead, drop the invisi seer. Grab Baron from DE and throw him in the squad. Now you are talking. Hit and run means you can avoid 2+ saves and get max use of your destructors. The shadowfield is a 2++ rerollable save so you can throw some of the more annoying wounds there. You also can turbo boost the squad but leave a trail for the barron to join in. He grants the squad stealth meaning you get 3++ saves vs shooting which is huge with rerolls. You can also grab an autarch with laser lance that can abuse hit and run for 6 S6 AP3 attacks at WS6 I6 every turn.

This also has the side effect of being able to take Wracks and venoms from DE. Wracks are insane at guarding objectives now. T4, 3+ cover save if they go to ground, 5+ fnp, liquifiers for overwatch, poison in melee, and cheap to boot. The venoms are simply cost effective shots that could also run the wracks around the board in a KP game

It's a horribly expensive deathstar with little to no killing power that relies on your ability to roll the right results on the psychic power tables. This 'Invisi-Council' is eight hundred points spent on ten models with six witchblades, four singing spears, and nine twin-linked shuriken catapults between them; they may be unkillable, but they also can't kill anything.

I personally prefer to keep Seer Councils small and reasonably-priced for the purpose of carrying around three Destructor powers; I've found more than that to be ridiculous degrees of overkill.

zephoid wrote:IMO i think the invisi council is vastly overrated. Getting into combat was never the problem for seer councils. 3+/4++ with rerolls was always reliable to get them across the board. The problem was 2+ saves. With no AP2 you take forever to go through terminators and can get hit back pretty hard. You are spending ~55 points per model but dont have the unit presence of that point cost.

Instead, drop the invisi seer. Grab Baron from DE and throw him in the squad. Now you are talking. Hit and run means you can avoid 2+ saves and get max use of your destructors. The shadowfield is a 2++ rerollable save so you can throw some of the more annoying wounds there. You also can turbo boost the squad but leave a trail for the barron to join in. He grants the squad stealth meaning you get 3++ saves vs shooting which is huge with rerolls. You can also grab an autarch with laser lance that can abuse hit and run for 6 S6 AP3 attacks at WS6 I6 every turn.

This also has the side effect of being able to take Wracks and venoms from DE. Wracks are insane at guarding objectives now. T4, 3+ cover save if they go to ground, 5+ fnp, liquifiers for overwatch, poison in melee, and cheap to boot. The venoms are simply cost effective shots that could also run the wracks around the board in a KP game

At the moment I am not really interested in Allies. I know, I know, if you aren't using Alllies then you are not playing 6th, and shouldn't complain about competitiveness. Well I guess I am having a hard time with the massive changes from 5th to 6th but at the moment I am not too interested in Allies unless I can come up with a very cool fluff reasoning behind it. Sorry. I will look into it though.

AnomanderRake wrote:It's a horribly expensive deathstar with little to no killing power that relies on your ability to roll the right results on the psychic power tables. This 'Invisi-Council' is eight hundred points spent on ten models with six witchblades, four singing spears, and nine twin-linked shuriken catapults between them; they may be unkillable, but they also can't kill anything.

I personally prefer to keep Seer Councils small and reasonably-priced for the purpose of carrying around three Destructor powers; I've found more than that to be ridiculous degrees of overkill.

No killing power but yet it is overkill by your own explanation??? This unit should not go up against terminators if it can be helped. However they do strike first and have weight of dice on their side, especially if you can fire destructors first and then assault. I've rolled enough 1's in my lifetime to know this is the practical reality of the game.

Is it gimmicky by relying on Invisibility getting rolled? Yes. But it is fun!