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Well this occured to me as i struggled to find a way to beat Mordric and his FTTF buddies and stormbuggie he can somehow bring along two. *Our group alows it, thats not what im pointing out* And to say the least this grey knight players HATES my eldrad and will try to obliterate him first round, he has yet to succeed but he is getting closer. Back to the point he always deploys his unit right outside of his buggie and then it occured to me. So i cast eldrich storm *....i know...* and it clipped the buggie and i consulted rules, this is what i saw. Look at the wording of eldrich storm ''Vehicals touched by the template.....and are spun around to face the direction directed by a scatter dice'' and the wording of Hard to hit ''flyers carnt be hit by blasts or templates.''

I would argue that since the spin effect isnt a hit, it wont be ignored by the fact flyers carnt be hit by the template. If you look at the wording of how templates work 'hold over an enemy unit...then look through to see how many models bases lie underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully or partially underneath the template.'' Its seems to me that templates work by anything under it taking a hit, but because you are a flyer you ignore that hit, but you dont ignore the template itself, you ignore the hit caused by the template and usually thats all templates do. But in this case if you are under the template i can also spin you the direction chosen by a scatter dice, this is not classed as a hit but is caused by being under the template, which you are, you just carnt be hurt because you are. I see no rule which says flyers ignore the spin effect, i see only that flyers carnt be hit, and no mention if they are effected by there secondary effects.

Example: if it said bob the guardsmen and his unit carnt be hit by templates and Mr SMurf the space marine fires a thunderfire cannon at him. scatters a bit but till hits. no wounds are made because bob and his unit carnt be hit by templates. Does the difficult terrain effect of the subterrainian shell still work? Probs bad example as i dont have the space amrine codex so i dont know the wording for TFC but its the only other blast with a secondary effect i can think of.

Whats your verdict?

P.S sorry about grammer, my dislexia and typing dont work together and word is acting up.

The template / blkast marker cannot hit, so you cannot be touched by it. No Spin

Even in the most literal sense i can TOUCH the flyers base with the template and say it says touch not hit and go down that WAAC route, but i wouldn't personally buy that nore want to use it, but it can be done.

Also being under and being hit by the template are different things the way i see it, being under the template courses the hit, but the hit is ignored. Where does it say the spin is ignored?

Are you under/being touched by the template? YES
Normally you would take a hit BECAUSE of this? YES
Flyers ignore that hit? YES
easy.

I can also spin you in the direction of a scatter dice if you are a vehical and under/being touched by the template.
Are you under/being touched by the template? YES
Are you a vehical? YES
Are you spun around by the scatter dice? YES
Does being a flyer make a difference to this? Hmmm....not sure but i dont see a rule saying you do.

So the point of the arguement is that not being hit by a template (as in not taking the hit caused by the template) doesnt mean your not under it.

I thought of this too when flyers came out but alas it is for naught.

They need to be in hover mode to be hit by it.

As said, they arnt hit, they ignore the hit. But they are still touched by the template meaning they should still spin.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
As said, they arnt hit, they ignore the hit. But they are still touched by the template meaning they should still spin.

I would rebut this this way:

Rulebook Page 33 wrote: When firing a Blast weapon... place the relevant blast marker with it's hole entirely over the target model.

Rulebook Page 33 wrote:... Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above - the unit suffers one hit for every model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker.

NB. Emphasis is my own.

Here, by strict RAW, you are never given permission to touch your opponents models with the marker, but rather, hover the blast marker over them.

Therefore, if hitting /=/ touching, then you could never 'touch' an opponents model.

So strictly RAW i can never use storm as i carnt touch the models? Nice going GW!

Buy say if touch=normal if your under you take a hit then the hit would be ignored, not the spin wouldnt be ignored because you are still under the template, right?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
So strictly RAW i can never use storm as i carnt touch the models? Nice going GW!

Buy say if touch=normal if your under you take a hit then the hit would be ignored, not the spin wouldnt be ignored because you are still under the template, right?

Well, if you interpret it that way.

You wouldn't be able to pick and chose if touch and hit were related or not:

If Hit = Touch then flyers are unaffected because they can never be hit by blast weapons while zooming.

If Touch /=/ Hit then, RAW, you could never touch a model with a blast marker.

Worst case, discuss it with your opponent and if they don't agree do a friendly roll-off.

The hit is caused by the template, the template doesnt hit you directly but causes the hit. You do not take this hit because you are a flyer, simple. The flyer is still under the template though even if the hit is ignored because you are under the template i can force you to spin.

What im pointing at is that the template causes the hit, but you can still have a template over flyer, the flyer just ignores the hit caused and usually the hit is wasted, but in this case the template has a secondary effect, which you dont ignore.

Can i get some quotes that say that flyers ignore the effects of templates and not just the hits?

P.S i will apologise in advance for my over use of commas.

Please stop using the word incorrectly - it's marker, not template.

The marker is t touching the flyer because there's no hit generated. If you're trying to conflate "touch" and "cover" you need some rules support.

I agree with Heartless.

You realistically have two ways to interpret what "touch" means in the Eldritch Storm rules. You're forced to interpret that, as the current edition of the game rules don't use "touch" when talking about blast markers.

A) Touch = cover. If you interpret it this way, then Eldritch Storm works perfectly fine in the game, functioning like any other Blast attack. If that's the case, of course, it does nothing to flyers.

B) Touch != cover. If you interpret it this way, you're forced to some up with some other meaning for it, and make up new rules/fill in the blanks to figure out how it actually hits units.

I think the simplest and most intuitive course, and the one least likely to be in conflict with GW's intention is A.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The hit is caused by the template, the template doesnt hit you directly but causes the hit. You do not take this hit because you are a flyer, simple. The flyer is still under the template though even if the hit is ignored because you are under the template i can force you to spin.

What im pointing at is that the template causes the hit, but you can still have a template over flyer, the flyer just ignores the hit caused and usually the hit is wasted, but in this case the template has a secondary effect, which you dont ignore.

Can i get some quotes that say that flyers ignore the effects of templates and not just the hits?

But you can't, because you can never 'touch' the flyer. Nor can you ever hit it with a blast marker whilst zooming.

Said secondary effect is useless, because you can't ever 'touch' a flyer with a blast marker.

Rulebook Page 81 wrote:Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit a flyer in Zoom mode.

If they cannot be hit, how can the be affected? Your argument is hinging on the use of the word "touched". You cannot literally 'touch' the model, so, it would be reasonable to assume that the entry means 'hit'.

If 'touch' = 'hit', then Eldritch Storm cannot affect a flyer in anyway.

If 'touch' does not mean hit, then, RAW, it does not do anything.

How are you defining the word 'touched'?

My argument does not hinge no the word ''touched'', i am going on touch=normal marker rules. Otherwise eldrich storm is now unuseable becauseof a single word.

My argument hindges on that being hit by a marker and being under it are different things. I have shown why i think that and provided a quote. You have said no, and repeated no.

The marker scatters onto the raven, so you are under the marker, am i doing anything wrong up to now???

*Using normal marker rules* anything under it takes a hit, maybe some terminators, but the raven ignores that hit because it carnt be hit by markers, still doing things right???

But because your base IS under the template and you ARE a vehical (check, check) i can spin you in the direction of a scatter dice, explain to me why i carnt.

You are still under the template, you just carnt be hit by it. Now the secondary effect is vehicals under the marker can be spun, you are under the template, i spin you.

Point out where i am wrong here because i really see no where.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
My argument does not hinge no the word ''touched'', i am going on touch=normal marker rules. Otherwise eldrich storm is now unuseable becauseof a single word.

My argument hindges on that being hit by a marker and being under it are different things. I have shown why i think that and provided a quote. You have said no, and repeated no.

The marker scatters onto the raven, so you are under the marker,am i doing anything wrong up to now???

*Using normal marker rules* anything under it takes a hit, maybe some terminators, but the raven ignores that hit because it carnt be hit by markers, still doing things right???

But because your base IS under the template and you ARE a vehical (check, check) i can spin you in the direction of a scatter dice, explain to me why i carnt.

You are still under the template,you just carnt be hit by it. Now the secondary effect is vehicals under the marker can be spun, you are under the template, i spin you.

Point out where i am wrong here because i really see no where.

I have Bold+Underlined where you're mistaken.

Being hit by a blast marker and being 'under' it are the same thing; because you cannot be hit by a blast marker unless it is over you and you cannot be under it unless you are hit by it.

Again, the Stormraven is not under it due to the point above.

You cannot because the rules say you can't. Eldritch storm requires that you 'touch' your target vehicle in order to spin it. If 'touch' means 'hit' then a Stormraven can't be affected.

If 'touch' does not mean hit then the rule is useless because you can never touch an opponents model with a blast marker. At no point does is say "any model under the template", which is what you're trying to push - if you cannot be hit by the blast marker then you cannot suffer the effects of it.

You can't even target the flyer at all with the marker.

From the BRB FAQ:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

BTW, this is thanks to rigeld2, who pointed it out in one of my threads.

jy2, we are assuming the marker scattered over the flyer. I do see his point though. The rules only state that flyers are not hit by blast markers, not that they are unaffected by them. Furthermore, the spinning effect has nothing to do with being hit, but with being touched (read under) the marker. Unless I'm missing something else.

RAW nothing spins. RAI I'd go with those things hit are spun.