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My friend states that you can use Feel no pain against energy/ force weapons, mainly ap3 or ap2 close combat weapons, this question is just for close combat weapons
Is this true?

Feel No pain applies to all wounds; except those that cause Instant death.

So an activated force weapon or having double strength would ignore Feel No Pain.

my problem is that it saids all unsaved wounds, now the question is if a weapon is ap3 against a marine it automatically pierce his armor, negating any armor save, so the marine never had a save that he could not save in other words he never miss an armor save he simply was pirce by a higher force, so he dont get to reroll the dice, it automatically kills him, with no save made feel no pain cannot interact, this is how i understand it.

if you never had a save to loose an armor; inv, cover, then how can't you said you loose the save.

i could be wrong and if you can persuade me with a better argument that .be swell

If he has no saves to make, then he has still suffered an unsaved wound.

even if he had no means to make a save, its still an unsaved wound.

You have an unsaved wound, then you make your FNP roll. PG 15 also supports this under allocating unsaved wounds.

Just because you don't get a save doesn't mean it's not an unsaved wound. Page 15 backs this up under "Taking Saving Throws" by saying "gets to make one saving throw, if it has one..."

For further proof that FNP can be used against wounds that you don't get saves from, in the BRB FAQ it says you may take a FNP roll against perils of the warp, which doesn't allow any saves to be taken at all.

For curiosities sake where is this faq? Also do they have the codex faqs there?

The FaQ's are found here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=40k+FAQ

GW seems to hide their FAQs on their website and never make announcements as to a new one being released. It is slightly annoying but once you know how to find them you can just check them periodically.

For reference go to the GW homepage. Under the Gaming drop down menu at the very bottom is Errata and FAQ articles.

My friend and I also have a similar situation come up in games. He's hitting my plague marins with ap3 force weapons. He says If he wounds then activates his force ability then I dont get FNP. I agree to a certain extent except the order of opperations. If force is activated off an unsaved wound, and FNP is done when you have a failed save, WHOS first or I should say what comes first.? Also would the order depend on whos turn it is?

Lungpickle wrote:
My friend and I also have a similar situation come up in games. He's hitting my plague marins with ap3 force weapons. He says If he wounds then activates his force ability then I dont get FNP. I agree to a certain extent except the order of opperations. If force is activated off an unsaved wound, and FNP is done when you have a failed save, WHOS first or I should say what comes first.? Also would the order depend on whos turn it is?

Actually the FAQ says you don't get FNP to activated FW's IIRC.

Yes because they cause ID, not because they are a Force Weapon or a Power Weapon.

from the FAQ

Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

There are two ways to look at this:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc).
Since both players have actions that go off of unsaved wounds, who's ever turn it is decides order.

Personally, I say it is the first option, however, others disagree.

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two ways to look at this:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc).
Since both players have actions that go off of unsaved wounds, who's ever turn it is decides order.

Personally, I say it is the first option, however, others disagree.

Where does it say that FNP comes first?

The wording on "Force" says immediately, while FNP lacks the urgency.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two ways to look at this:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc).
Since both players have actions that go off of unsaved wounds, who's ever turn it is decides order.

Personally, I say it is the first option, however, others disagree.

Where does it say that FNP comes first?

The wording on "Force" says immediately, while FNP lacks the urgency.

And there's the debate in a nutshell. Lets not start it up again, okay?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two ways to look at this:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc).
Since both players have actions that go off of unsaved wounds, who's ever turn it is decides order.

Personally, I say it is the first option, however, others disagree.

Where does it say that FNP comes first?

The wording on "Force" says immediately, while FNP lacks the urgency.

FNP does not have the wording 'immediately' but letting it go off second causes all types of issues.

It is more noticeable with things like Entropic Strike. if FNP goes first you break no rules, if FNP goes second You have broken the rules as ES has taken away the models armor save off of a saved wound.

I agree with rig though there's the debate in a nutshell. We should not start it up again as there are many threads dedicated to this topic.

The rule is in the BRB, please look at it, it states clearly when you may and may not take FNP.

Furthermore, as a general rule, FNP is always taken after saves, but before effects. So if you fail and armor save, but make a FNP roll, you still have armor against a wound from entropic strike.

 DeathReaper wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two ways to look at this:
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc).
Since both players have actions that go off of unsaved wounds, who's ever turn it is decides order.

Personally, I say it is the first option, however, others disagree.

Where does it say that FNP comes first?

The wording on "Force" says immediately, while FNP lacks the urgency.

FNP does not have the wording 'immediately' but letting it go off second causes all types of issues.

It is more noticeable with things like Entropic Strike. if FNP goes first you break no rules, if FNP goes second You have broken the rules as ES has taken away the models armor save off of a saved wound.

I agree with rig though there's the debate in a nutshell. We should not start it up again as there are many threads dedicated to this topic.

I just couldn't grasp the old argument.
Was just reading over the rules.
In this case allow me to walk through it.

FW causes a wound.
Model fails/denied an armor/invul save.
FW is activated immediately after failed save.
It now has ID characteristic and FNP cannot be taken.

That's how it plays out in my head. (mind you it's been a long day at work)

Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


I just couldn't grasp the old argument.
Was just reading over the rules.
In this case allow me to walk through it.

FW causes a wound.
Model fails/denied an armor/invul save.
FW is activated immediately after failed save.
It now has ID characteristic and FNP cannot be taken.

That's how it plays out in my head. (mind you it's been a long day at work)

But if you allow it to work that way the game breaks as things like ES will be triggered before FNP. But if FNP is successful then ES was triggered off of a saved wound and we have broken a rule. That is where the issue is.

rigeld2 wrote:
Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

lacking C:Necrons

however it seems to work w/ fw's.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

lacking C:Necrons

however it seems to work w/ fw's.

But it breaks on any ability that doesn't cause ID but applies "immediately" on unsaved wounds.

The problem is it only works with force weapons. I've stated both sides of the argument. It's up to individual groups/TOs to determine how to be played. Arguing is only going to get this thread locked.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

lacking C:Necrons

however it seems to work w/ fw's.

But it breaks on any ability that doesn't cause ID but applies "immediately" on unsaved wounds.

So we break the least amount of rules possible.

It works with FW's it does not work with ES.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

lacking C:Necrons

however it seems to work w/ fw's.

But it breaks on any ability that doesn't cause ID but applies "immediately" on unsaved wounds.

So we break the least amount of rules possible.

It works with FW's it does not work with ES.

Breaking the least amount of rules possible and being consistent means FNP gets rolled first.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Now replace Force with Entropic Strike.

lacking C:Necrons

however it seems to work w/ fw's.

But it breaks on any ability that doesn't cause ID but applies "immediately" on unsaved wounds.

So we break the least amount of rules possible.

It works with FW's it does not work with ES.

Breaking the least amount of rules possible and being consistent means FNP gets rolled first.

Considering 1 breaks rules and 1 doesn't I'll only apply it to ones that breaks the rules.
I think that's fair. If you don't than that's how you choose to HIWPI.

Except that ruling, as a general ruling, breaks rules. We should strive to break no rule.

Therefore putting anything before FNP breaks rules where putting FNP first breaks no rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that ruling, as a general ruling, breaks rules. We should strive to break no rule.

Therefore putting anything before FNP breaks rules where putting FNP first breaks no rules.

I was being specific, as if we should strive to break no rules. It should truly be case by case, not a blanket statement.

Granted HIWPI is I will not benefit from FNP to FW's if they activate them.

So a related question, how would weapons with special rules that inflict ID interact with FNP? Tyranid Boneswords for example.

"If a model suffers one or more unsaved wound in close combat from a tryanid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a leadership test or suffer instant death."

Would the model take the leadership test first? As it is taken immediately after the unsaved wound? If they fail, ID occurs and FNP cannot be taken? If the test is pass FNP can be taken as normal? Or does the fact that ID CAN occur ignore FNP completely? Or does FNP have to be failed before the ability can be activated?