Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, I figured I didn't want to use kroot myself...so I've decided to try pathfinders instead. How usable are rail rifles to keep the assaults to a minimum? I know all the arguments to and for taking pathfinders, all I want is a yay or nay, no comparisons to more usable models please

Can you elaborate more please? Kroot and Pathfinders play two different roles, so I dont understand why you are choosing between the two for one role?

And what do you mean when you say you want the rail Rifles to keep assaults to a minimum? Railrifles arent really worth it. The only thing pathfinders are useful for is the Markerlights. And Tetras are better for those too.

Explain the role in your army you want to fill, and people can suggest the best unit for it.

just that, 'keeping assaults to a minimum for the army', rail rifles for the range on pinning, for said reason. Thought I explained the reason clearly enough, I already know about the tetras being better for the markerlights, but I asked for no comparisons. What I am asking is how usable are rail rifles for keeping assaults against my army at a minimum

Pathfinder X wrote:
just that, 'keeping assaults to a minimum for the army', rail rifles for the range on pinning, for said reason. Thought I explained the reason clearly enough, I already know about the tetras being better for the markerlights, but I asked for no comparisons. What I am asking is how usable are rail rifles for keeping assaults against my army at a minimum

Pinning isnt that great anymore, as many units have some way of getting Fearless now, so its not too effective. I wouldnt bother with Pathfinders if you dont want them for Markerlights.

To stop you getting important units getting assaulted, use Kroot bubbles, drone bubbles, or just max your shots and hope nothing gets close.

The best way not to get assaulted with Tau is to stay mobile and use your firepower to stop them even having the chance to get close.

Rail rifles and sniper type rifle are not good at making your army unable to be assaulted.

Pinning is poor, you must kill a model then they take a LD test if they are not fearless, even if pathfinders have a 100% chance to make a kill with everyshot, the odds would still be poor that pinning would stop a unit looking to assault.

Pinning is practically useless, if your enemy isn't fearless they are likely testing on Ld 8-10 which means you need 4 marker light hits just to drop their leadership low enough that you have a good chance of pinning and that's only one unit pinned.

The best way to avoid being assaulted is to have 60 tau fire warriors behind an aegis defence line. That won't help you grabbing forward objectives though.

I've had some luck with stopping assaults with rail rifle pinning, but not much really. And even then, that was with sniper drones, using my pathfinders for ML support.

The problem with PF rail rifle teams is that you don't get NEARLY enough rifles. Also, they are very fragile, compared to the drones who often have a 2+ cover.

All in all, Pathfinders lack the concentration of rail rifles to be an effective sniper/suppression/area denial unit. They aren't even good upgrades for when you have a few points to spend because the cost is SO MUCH. Seriously, to upgrade one PF team to RR, you can buy three more seeker missiles.

Now, to counter my opinion, I think Advanced Tau Tactica has some good articles on the use of PF RR teams.

Nay - If you really want to pin something with a rail rifle sniper drones are better because two units of sniper drones can cause multiple pinning check on multiple units, i still wouldnt count on it though.

 spears wrote:
Nay - If you really want to pin something with a rail rifle sniper drones are better because two units of sniper drones can cause multiple pinning check on multiple units, i still wouldnt count on it though.

Rail rifle Pathfinders also get the target lock. The only advantage sniper drones have is the stealth field, the two units have the same shooting (but they're still garbage).

Pinning only really works if you have another unit using markerlights to reduce the Ld of the target unit (the markerlights within the Pathfinder unit have no effect on the unit's own shooting). So if you are going to use Pathfinders (or Sniper Drones) to pin, you're going to need to have a second unit using Markerlights. At this point, the points investment starts to get a little high for what benefit you get.

Pathfinder X wrote:
just that, 'keeping assaults to a minimum for the army', rail rifles for the range on pinning, for said reason. Thought I explained the reason clearly enough... What I am asking is how usable are rail rifles for keeping assaults against my army at a minimum

The reason we are unsure is that rail rifles are just as good at keeping assaults off your army as pissing in the wind

Jefffar wrote:
Pinning only really works if you have another unit using markerlights to reduce the Ld of the target unit (the markerlights within the Pathfinder unit have no effect on the unit's own shooting). So if you are going to use Pathfinders (or Sniper Drones) to pin, you're going to need to have a second unit using Markerlights. At this point, the points investment starts to get a little high for what benefit you get.

It goes way beyond "a little high". Instead of throwing away points on markerlight support for the pinning just bring more guns and kill the unit.

As mentioned above, this would almost be a not bad idea if most things that you would want to force a pinning test on are either fearless or have a really high leadership. As it is, their only real use is giving your pathfinders some teeth against meq and an ability to hurt lighter vehicles. But even that's probably not the most efficient use of points.

I'm unclear on why people are bagging on Pinning. The majority of Armies are not fearless and even less are immune to AP 3. Rail Rifles, while perhaps they DO need to be more like 5 point upgrades, are execellent range and the Pathfinder units can support each others fire, NEARLY guaranteeing a unit a round will be pinned if not more than one against non-fearless units.

Kroot dont stop anything. They just take it, and not so well at that. So the Pathfinder idea is not bad if you wanted to replace the bubble wrap in your army like that and add firepower.

I've always thought that pinning is underused as a tool. Space Wolf armies should hate the crap out of Pathfinders. Just pop the Terminater in the front with the Broadsides, Pin, repeat!

Nothing works all the time but as for keeping assaults to a minimum, you could employ a far worse means to do it. And in 6E, Pathfinders over Kroot makes sense anyways. With 36" range, if they outflank, they may be able to last quite a while. When in the same army as Sniper Drone units, it can be a really ferocious combination.

I'd give it a try. The only thing riding on that decision is pride so hey!

 Jancoran wrote:
The majority of Armies are not fearless and even less are immune to AP 3.

But those aren't the units you care about. There's no point in screwing around with trying to pin a tactical squad, just shoot them to death. Pinning only makes even the slightest sense when you're talking about tough threats that you can't deal with by shooting alone and need to delay, but most of those threats have either fearless or high leadership.

And as for AP 3, rail rifles on either unit are horribly inefficient. You have AP 3, but only a single BS 3 shot, which means they're barely more effective than an equal point value of single-shot fire warriors (and far worse inside 15") even against MEQs without cover. Since neither unit can score they're a terrible option.

Lets take your chance to pin a unit of Space Marines.

BS3 needs 4s to hit with the rifle. 2s to wound with no armor saves. Then the marines have to fail their pinning test at Ld9.

1(.5)(5/6)(6/36)=.069444

That translates to a 6.9% chance of the unit getting pinned.

Or 20.7% if you factor in using 3 rifles. Still a very long shot if you don't use Markerlights to reduce leadership in the target unit.

Another trick you can do is target a different unit with each gun, possibly getting multiple rolls in a turn and with luck one of them failing.

But, as with killing, Tau need to devote many, many units to pin just one. Might as well put the effort into killing stuff off.

Each Rifle doesn't cause a seperate pinning test.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The majority of Armies are not fearless and even less are immune to AP 3.

But those aren't the units you care about. There's no point in screwing around with trying to pin a tactical squad, just shoot them to death. Pinning only makes even the slightest sense when you're talking about tough threats that you can't deal with by shooting alone and need to delay, but most of those threats have either fearless or high leadership.

And as for AP 3, rail rifles on either unit are horribly inefficient. You have AP 3, but only a single BS 3 shot, which means they're barely more effective than an equal point value of single-shot fire warriors (and far worse inside 15") even against MEQs without cover. Since neither unit can score they're a terrible option.

I'd like to agree with you but let me point out: First, most marine armies only HAVE three troop choices and Combat Squadding isn't as common (though it does make Rail rifles better when they do). So pinning two units is a BIG deal. Because you're STILL going to shoot them like you say. Difference is, they aren't getting any closer afterwards. Alternating targets to the nearest means that enemy army is going awfully slow.

At the OFCC I played a 101 Space marine army with Tau. He learned the incredibly painful way what I am telling you now: You're not allowed to move through your own models. So when you pin units, you are also slowing anything thats behind them way down.

Also, only the FIRSt unit of Sniper Rifles are BS 3. After that they will have Markerlight help. So they are considerably more dangerous then. So fire the Sniper Drones, then the three Pathfinder units, in that order. By doing it, every Pathfinder unit will be hitting with deadly accuracy and efficacy. Will you win? Different story. We dont know. But TACTICALLY sound.

 Jancoran wrote:
[I'd like to agree with you but let me point out: First, most marine armies only HAVE three troop choices and Combat Squadding isn't as common (though it does make Rail rifles better when they do). So pinning two units is a BIG deal. Because you're STILL going to shoot them like you say. Difference is, they aren't getting any closer afterwards. Alternating targets to the nearest means that enemy army is going awfully slow.

Why are you concerned about the troops choices when it's the elites (TH/SS terminators, TWC, etc) that are going to massacre you the most in assault? Pinning an objective holding tactical squad isn't all that impressive.

At the OFCC I played a 101 Space marine army with Tau. He learned the incredibly painful way what I am telling you now: You're not allowed to move through your own models. So when you pin units, you are also slowing anything thats behind them way down.

Why are your opponents putting weak units in front of their death star? And why are they so close together that you can't fit a model between them?

Also, only the FIRSt unit of Sniper Rifles are BS 3. After that they will have Markerlight help. So they are considerably more dangerous then. So fire the Sniper Drones, then the three Pathfinder units, in that order. By doing it, every Pathfinder unit will be hitting with deadly accuracy and efficacy. Will you win? Different story. We dont know. But TACTICALLY sound.

Ok, so now you're paying for markerlights to boost your shooting. Great, now you're even farther over the "just bring more guns and kill them instead" point.

Your dismissive response is unfortunate. Scoring units are the targets in most games, but the pinning does indeed work on Terminators. So you're actually ALLOWED to fire at them instead anyways Peregrine. Great right?

Secondly, who said where his "more powerful" units were? And who cares. Point is, I had my choice of targets so whatever one i WANT stopped gets stopped.

You can oversimplify if you think it makes your point any stronger. I'd disagree though. What I think you need to ponder in your mind here is: how well am I going to do if I cannot move my actual army? if you're onthe receiving end of that question, I think you'll come to the same conclusion: not very. You become a sitting duck in front of the terrifying Tau fusilade that is inevitably going to be present in any force you face regarding Tau.

The original poster is asking whether he should use the Pathfinders as his bubble wrap in place of Kroot. Well...Armor is better, LD is better, guns are better, special rules are prolific, and they work when asked to bubble wrap. So... it just so happens that the introduction of a Rail Rifle adds a whole other threat dimension to the list in general. 3 Rail Rifles at BS 3 + 6 at BS 5 is 5 dead marines essentially, and two of the three units could be pinned. I see that as a very good thing. You do not apparently?

Sorry, but as much as I love the models and the concept-I must agree with peregrine here.

Rail rifles, in all forms, are grossly overpriced and underpowered for what they give, and pinning is a longshot against any unit that you actually want the AP3 guns to hit.

The unit is just ineffective-fun like hell-but ineffective.

The sniper drones somehow makes up for their flaw with the stealth field generator at least making them hard to remove, but still don't pump out enough firepower for the cost to do their job well.
They are about on-par with just regular guys holding pulse rifles under optimal conditions in cost/effect calculation, and vastly under-preforming when cover or rapid fire enters the equation.

If rail rifles were a 5 point upgrade for the pathfinders, and the SDT were 50 points a team-I would say go for it. but at current retail, its just no more then a fluffy choice to have fun with and perhaps knock a few guys off balance due to being unfamiliar with rail rifles actual performance and fearing it way more then they should.

 Jancoran wrote:
Scoring units are the targets in most games

Which is why you shoot them to death. Pinning a scoring unit doesn't do very much, since it's already on the objective it doesn't need to move, and its shooting is so weak that forcing it to snap fire isn't accomplishing all that much.

but the pinning does indeed work on Terminators.

It "works" on terminators. First you need to get through a 2+ armor save, then you need to get them to fail at least LD 9, and usually LD 10 and/or fearless. Do the math and then try to argue that this is a realistic plan.

Secondly, who said where his "more powerful" units were? And who cares. Point is, I had my choice of targets so whatever one i WANT stopped gets stopped.

The point is that the targets you care most about pinning are the ones that are least vulnerable to actually getting pinned.

What I think you need to ponder in your mind here is: how well am I going to do if I cannot move my actual army?

Not very well, but that's not the point. The point is that pinning might be awesome when it happens, but your chances of success are terrible and you're better off spending points on guns and just killing the target instead of trying to pin it.

The original poster is asking whether he should use the Pathfinders as his bubble wrap in place of Kroot. Well...Armor is better, LD is better, guns are better, special rules are prolific, and they work when asked to bubble wrap.

That doesn't even make any sense. Pathfinders are terrible bubble wrap because they're expensive.

So... it just so happens that the introduction of a Rail Rifle adds a whole other threat dimension to the list in general. 3 Rail Rifles at BS 3 + 6 at BS 5 is 5 dead marines essentially, and two of the three units could be pinned. I see that as a very good thing. You do not apparently?

No, I don't see it as a good thing because it costs a ridiculous amount of points to get those five dead marines, and the pinning chance is way too low to be a reliable weapon.

It's 78 points for 3 S6 AP3 shots that pin, a 4 guy with a marker light, and they can all fire at different targets. All have a 36" range.
With it, you must buy a devilfish (which isn't horrible), and it lets your crisis suits re-roll their deep strike.

I ran 3x4 pathfinders before, with max rail-rifles. They weren't great, but you can't really expect too much from 78 points of infantry. The long range higher strength shots let them put fire into units that needed that "one more kill".
The fact that they can all split fire means you have very little shooting wasted.

I wouldn't compare them to sniper drones, because I wouldn't waste a heavy slot on them.

If Pathfinders were in any other slot, I'd never consider them.

-Matt

 Grey Templar wrote:
Each Rifle doesn't cause a seperate pinning test.

No but because of target locks one squad can inflict pinning checks on multiple units.

I'm still dubious, i like rail rifles but i would really struggle to gamble too heavily on them pinning anything.

 Jihallah wrote:

Pathfinder X wrote:
just that, 'keeping assaults to a minimum for the army', rail rifles for the range on pinning, for said reason. Thought I explained the reason clearly enough... What I am asking is how usable are rail rifles for keeping assaults against my army at a minimum

The reason we are unsure is that rail rifles are just as good at keeping assaults off your army as pissing in the wind

I dunno, I wouldn't wanna get near a bunch of guys pissing in my direction...

In regards to Rail Rifles, having 1-3 squads with a couple Rail Rifles is a very risky gamble (and one that doesn't cover Meched lists very well). You're entirely relying on luck, which obviously makes your list unreliable. If you're worried about assault units (particularly Terminators), then your best bet is jump-shoot-jump Crisis Suits with plasma, or massed Fire Warriors.

That said, Tau are massively disadvantaged still, so it's always going to be an uphill battle until they finally get their new Codex.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
They weren't great, but you can't really expect too much from 78 points of infantry.

Sure I can. Compare them to 78 (really, 170+ points since you have to account for the devilfish) points worth of fire warriors and it's pretty sad. Even without including the expensive (and usually empty) transport the rail rifles barely win outside 15", and get out-shot inside 15". Meanwhile the fire warriors are a scoring unit, which more than offsets any slight decrease in firepower.

Spurious at best Peregrine. Side stepping the point is not making it any better for you.

Some miss the value here and I am fine with that. Win your way, it's not as if you're wrong. The scoreboard tells the truth even if we dont. But unless you're fearless, you care a lot about this kind of tactic.

And what do Kroot do for 3 points less that's worth saving those points in 6E? Lol. I mean you're totally forgetting what the original poster was really asking. Kroot are just not going to give you more for 77 points.

Here's what you get:
22 rapid firing kroot shots = 1.83 wounds on the enemy.
6 Pathfinder shots at BS 5 = 1.11 wounds plus pinning

So you're going to let the enemy charge you just to get in an extra .72 wounds MAYBE?

I see.

And if i took 15 kroot for 105 points in kroot or 6 Pathfinders with Railrifles:

Kroot Rapid fire = 2.5 unsaved MEQ wounds
6 BS 5 Pathfinders with Railrifles: 2.63 unsaved MEQ wounds.

Now i can already hear someone saying "yeah but". Yeah but you need other Markerlights to make that true. And thats true. But then... That's what they are there for. Kinda like telling me you shouldn't buy a ten man Squad because 5 will be killed before they ever fight. DUH. That's what they are there for. No one thinks THATS a waste when building their assault Marine squad, do they? No. Sending in 5 man Assault Squads in 6E is your choice BUT...

Even in an assault, the Pathfinders lose BETTER because while they do very little, they take less. They are cut down with less frequency and it balances out. No you say? Well:

Pathfinders when assaulted by 10 plain Tac marines take 4.88 unsaved wounds (assuming bare fists).
Kroot take 7.33.

So when they lose...and they both generally will... 10 kroot lose by 7.035. 6 pathfinders lose by 4.81. Despite it all, the Pathfinders have the better chance of holding the line!

So, aided by Markerlights and in brutal close combat, it would seem the Pathfinders have an advantage.

Now the Pathfinder is at least given a chance to avoid even this combat by pinning its prospective victim in place. Causing the wound necessary to try is made easier by a Rail Rifle. Obviously.

So then if the enemy gets pinned even once you've more than satisfied your investment. Do it two or three times and you are rolling in money.

Don't misunderstand me here. Rail Rifles are the very last thing I might expend points on in a list. Many things come before that decision. But what I am saying is that if this was the way he wanted to go, I think he has good reason to do it. The Sniper Drones really help such a build (or a skyray, tetra etc...) not as a replacement for them but as an augment to them.

You don't have to love Rail Rifles. But as far as the mans original question, i am not sure how you can tell him its a BAD idea to do this. It does not appear to be at all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Each Rifle doesn't cause a seperate pinning test.

Yes and no.

My tripling of his number was because he only had 1 rifle shooting. 3x the shots increases the likelihood of a wound 3x which increases the likelihood of taking the test by three times which increases the likelihood of the target unit winding up pinned by . . . Well I'm sure you see the pattern.

But no, 3 rifles do not cause the same unit to test 3 times. But, with their target locks they can potentially force up to 3 seperate units to test, thereby increasing the odds of a fail.

Best bet is still to use Markerlights though. Hopefully the next codex gives the Railrifle Strikedown instead of Pinning. Also, the photon grenade launcher attached to the Pulse Carbine should be a Blind weapon instead of Pinning. I hope we see that.

Pathfinder X wrote:
What I am asking is how usable are rail rifles for keeping assaults against my army at a minimum

Actually Jancoran, the original question was in fact on the effectiveness of pathfinders at pinning. The overwhelming consensus seems to be that they are not in fact very effective., and the better way to keep assaults away is to buy more effective shooting units and kill the enemy rather than pin him/her.