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As far as I can tell, I could get away with painting a Baal Predator model in Imperial Fists colours, could I not?

It is in the local want ads as part of a large group of models for sale (drools). I am getting a rhino and the Baal is fitted with HB on it's sides and twin assault cannons on the turret. it appears to be essentially the same model as the Predator, and the guy who is selling it built it without BA embossed parts.

Yeah of course you could paint it as fists, but you can only run it in a BA army, although there is the Lamenters, who are BA successors and yellow.

I have studied it very carefully, and all I would need to do to make it SM "approved" would be to grab bits off of ebay for the autocannon or twin linked lascannon. I honestly don't think anyone who I play with would have a problem with the twin assault cannons though, just use the rules from the stormtalons twin linked assault cannon.

No if you ran it as a vanilla pred that would be fine, just couldn't run it as a BAAL

If you proxied the Baal Predator as a Codex Predator, than that would be totally fine until you converted it. Most of the people I play with are a wee bit to competitive to be okay me with just running non-codex unit. However, for allies and campaigns and whatnot, I imagine that normal Codex rules could be broken, given some fluff and creativity.

eugeniusgenx wrote:
As far as I can tell, I could get away with painting a Baal Predator model in Imperial Fists colours, could I not?

It is in the local want ads as part of a large group of models for sale (drools). I am getting a rhino and the Baal is fitted with HB on it's sides and twin assault cannons on the turret. it appears to be essentially the same model as the Predator, and the guy who is selling it built it without BA embossed parts.

The debate here is if you would be able to get away with using a Baal Predator for a basic SM army. The answer is no regardless. If I was playing against you I wouldn't feel comfortable with if you tried to say that it was a regular predator. It goes along the lines of "what you see is what you get". I wouldn't allow it to be played. When the conversions would be completed then, I'll consider it.

 Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

eugeniusgenx wrote:
As far as I can tell, I could get away with painting a Baal Predator model in Imperial Fists colours, could I not?

It is in the local want ads as part of a large group of models for sale (drools). I am getting a rhino and the Baal is fitted with HB on it's sides and twin assault cannons on the turret. it appears to be essentially the same model as the Predator, and the guy who is selling it built it without BA embossed parts.

The debate here is if you would be able to get away with using a Baal Predator for a basic SM army. The answer is no regardless. If I was playing against you I wouldn't feel comfortable with if you tried to say that it was a regular predator. It goes along the lines of "what you see is what you get". I wouldn't allow it to be played. When the conversions would be completed then, I'll consider it.

Even for just a friendly game? Jeez, that's harsh...it's not like it's an entire army of proxies, it's just one tank and it's pretty easy to remember

 Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:
The debate here is if you would be able to get away with using a Baal Predator for a basic SM army. The answer is no regardless.

Horse-. The answer is only "no" if you are in a tournament. In casual play, anything goes as long as your opponent consents.

 Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:
If I was playing against you I wouldn't feel comfortable with if you tried to say that it was a regular predator.

That's you and that's your decision. I can get games with other people using a Baal in my Ultramarines army without any issue so in the end, it's not really my loss. The only time anyone I know would have a problem is if I tried to cost that Baal as a Rhino or something similar.

To the OP: Paint your Baal the way you want. Ask if your local gaming guys would play against your army if you include the Baal at the cost listed in the BA codex. If so, then use it. If not, then rework your list or game with different opponents.

Well, here is the thing, it is Baal Pred Model that I am getting for $40 through a local online classified site. I don't run BA, so what I wanted to do is use it as a regular SM predator. What is the difference between the Baal Predator and a regular SM predator? The assault cannons? I don't know, I just figured it is very similar. The people I play with probably would not care if I ran it with the Assault cannons. but i can always put the SM cannon on it, it is 6 bucks on eBay.

That and it's a fast tank. You could always paint it to fit in with your scheme and then add an allied BA group that includes it.

eugeniusgenx wrote:
Well, here is the thing, it is Baal Pred Model that I am getting for $40 through a local online classified site. I don't run BA, so what I wanted to do is use it as a regular SM predator. What is the difference between the Baal Predator and a regular SM predator? The assault cannons? I don't know, I just figured it is very similar. The people I play with probably would not care if I ran it with the Assault cannons. but i can always put the SM cannon on it, it is 6 bucks on eBay.

Rules-wise, the Baal Predator costs more points than the Vanilla Predator. It is also a Fast Attack unit instead of a Heavy Support unit, and it has the "Fast" rule. It also has a different weapon load-out for the turret and sponsons, including a twin-linked Assault Cannon as a main weapon.

Model-wise, its essentially the same any predator tank. The kit comes with some different weapon options, but the hull and turret are the same. It should be a fairly simple matter to cut the Assualt-Cannon off, and splice a Auto-cannon in its place. This could also be an awesome opportunity to do some light custom-weapon-modding with green-stuff, but really, thats just me.

One more thing: Blood Angles can take vanilla Predators as Heavy Support and Baal Predators as Fast Attack. That means Blood Angles armies can field six predators. Just some food for thought.

Have fun with all the new minis!

I have no problems if you were doing that - I do it with my Baal when i play them as vanilla marines, but it runs alongside my Deimos Infernus as a chapter-built copy of the Deimos based on a newer hull.

Forge World predator variant but its a good unit. More expensive especially with the magnamelta!

You may be able to just cut the assault cannons down to their bases and then glue either an autocannon or twin lascannons on. Very easy to do if you get the IG heavy weapons squad guns from bits sites.

 Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

eugeniusgenx wrote:
As far as I can tell, I could get away with painting a Baal Predator model in Imperial Fists colours, could I not?

It is in the local want ads as part of a large group of models for sale (drools). I am getting a rhino and the Baal is fitted with HB on it's sides and twin assault cannons on the turret. it appears to be essentially the same model as the Predator, and the guy who is selling it built it without BA embossed parts.

The debate here is if you would be able to get away with using a Baal Predator for a basic SM army. The answer is no regardless. If I was playing against you I wouldn't feel comfortable with if you tried to say that it was a regular predator. It goes along the lines of "what you see is what you get". I wouldn't allow it to be played. When the conversions would be completed then, I'll consider it.

First, lemme just say that I loathe this type of attitude amongst 40k players. The idea that you would be "uncomfortable" with the OP running it as a regular predator shows a very poor amount of sportsmanship. For God's sake if it's an imperial fists army & is using C:SM then if it has sponsons it's not like there's anything you could possibly confuse it with.

Second of all, for you to say "When the conversions are completed then, I'll consider it." is ridiculous because at that point it is 100% WYSIWYG & tournament legal. The only thing different at that point is it has better looking HB sponsons & a couple of minor details.

By that logic I doubt you'd let me use my custom predator made to look like a retro predator destructor with the square turret & boxy, 90° traverse HB sponsons. Or 90% of my IG vehicles then.

As to the OP's question, would I let you run it as a Baal without BA allies? Probably not unless we knew each other really well. As a Dakka pred? Absolutely. I'd prefer it have sponsons of course just so that it is clear it's not a razorback with TL assault cannons. But, where I game most of the guys operate off the concept that 'rule of cool trumps all' so by that concept, generally speaking the more effort you put into making it look good the more likely it is to be accepted by others.

eugeniusgenx wrote:
As far as I can tell, I could get away with painting a Baal Predator model in Imperial Fists colors, could I not?

It is in the local want ads as part of a large group of models for sale (drools). I am getting a rhino and the Baal is fitted with HB on it's sides and twin assault cannons on the turret. it appears to be essentially the same model as the Predator, and the guy who is selling it built it without BA embossed parts.

As for the model itself You are perfectly right. And I think the best way to get away with using it (that's what I'm planning to do) is to field it as a:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/DEIMOS_PATTERN_PREDATOR_INFERNUS.html

Let's simply say our re-painted Baal is Predator Infernus, modern pattern instead of the ugly-heresy Deimos Pattern

And here are the rules to use with that, as one can see - usable with Codex: SM
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/p/Predator_infernus.pdf

I'll definitely have it this way in my Imperial Fists army


EDIT:

Hell. I totally missed the point If you're asking if Baal Predator can be converted back to rhino/predator - it sure can. The main chassis (2 sprues) are exactly the same as any Rhino. And predator is nothing else than Rhino with 2 sponsons and a turret. Ask him for spare parts - original kit had them.

If every model was available to every codex, I'd stop playing 40k.

So, as politely as possible, no I wouldn't let you use a fast predator with a twin linked assault cannon and heavy bolter sponsons unless you were running a BA codex or had BA allies.

@AG, what about the approach I suggested?

Well sure, I don't mind playing against FW models and rulesets at all.


But what OP is describing isn't an infernus, as it has t/l assault cannons on the top.

You could take the sponsons off and run it as a razorback with assault cannons. Personally i would just take the turret to use on a landraider because that looks totally sick.

In most cases people likely wouldn't care at all if it were proxied, except maybe the most anal of gamers (see above), and in friendly games, I don't think most would have a problem with it being a regular Baal in your Imp. Fists.

To make it really believeable though, why not make an Allied BA detachment?

I think most people missed the point that he just wanted to use it for a counts as predator, maybe use the twin linked assault cannons. Not use the BAAL predator rules entries.

Some of you people strait suck. People look for cheap alternatives to the hobby and you try to tell them its not good enough for you? gimme a break. Its these kinds of things why fantasy players outshine 40kers in my local community.

@OP to get a real answer to your question, ask your local players what THEY would think. Not us.

Heh, you're assuming that the modelling aspect is what I enjoy about the hobby.


I love the rules system. Which is why I stick to them, as they are written, and expect other that I play against to do the same.

^ no you are just anal gamer. If someone tells you their assault cannon is actually a autocannon it doesn't hurt your "rules". Now if he pretended it were 1 for the first turn then changed it to another maybe it would. To the OP if you are clear about it noone should have an issue. If you are playing in a tournament I would find an autocannon to put on it or run the predator as part of allied detachment.

Just ally a blood angel unit, or use it as a codex predator? Hell, if you were in a friendly game with people you knew, they could even let you use the BA rules for it.

 Tyrius wrote:
^ no you are just anal gamer. If someone tells you their assault cannon is actually a autocannon it doesn't hurt your "rules". Now if he pretended it were 1 for the first turn then changed it to another maybe it would. To the OP if you are clear about it noone should have an issue. If you are playing in a tournament I would find an autocannon to put on it or run the predator as part of allied detachment.

Try reading the thread next time.

He doesn't want to proxy a Baal predator as a Predator.

He wants to use a Baal predator in a SM army.

 Tyrius wrote:
^ no you are just anal gamer. If someone tells you their assault cannon is actually a autocannon it doesn't hurt your "rules". Now if he pretended it were 1 for the first turn then changed it to another maybe it would. To the OP if you are clear about it noone should have an issue. If you are playing in a tournament I would find an autocannon to put on it or run the predator as part of allied detachment.

Some people just don't like playing against proxies, just like some people don't like playing against unpainted models. I would let the dude proxy a Baal for an Autocannon Pred. I wouldn't let him use a Baal in a C:SM army. And as long as AG. is cordial about it, I respect his opinion to differ. It doesn't make him "harsh" or "anal".