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Hey so I had a random question about Space Marine fluff. Let's say an entire company of Space Marines goes to battle. As a rapid response unit, they arrive in Drop Pods, Rhinos...etc. They get to the battle field and deploy from their transports, 10 man squads at a time.

Who's driving the Rhinos? The crew are Space Marines, right? All hundred marines are accounted for. Do they just ask other marines from other companies to crew their vehicles for them temporarily? Aren't marines too valuable of a resource to be used doing that? Aren't their TWO crew per Rhino, one to drive and one to shoot (as the model suggests?) Where are all these extra marines coming from?

They are building the Rhino around the Space Marine, or they teleport the Space Marines inside it.

PS: The bolter have two settings.
Setting 1: Bolter shells.
Setting 2: Teleporting. First select object (Space Marine) you want to teleport. Second select place to teleport from. Third select where to teleport to.

PSS: That explains why there are so many Space Marines dying, everyone thinks they should be Chapter Masters.

There are many theories. Firstly that drivers aren't taken into account of companies and they're attached to the tank pool separately, second that companies aren't strictly 100 marines and third and what I believe happens is that the drivers are seconded from reserve companies when in particular full company deployment may be necessary along with chapters not being strictly 1000 marines.... If you take into account command squads etc, then companies and chapters aren't strictly 1000 marines, I'd guess they're more likely 1200 at full strength on the conservative side of the estimate, maybe up to 1500 if all drivers, fleet crew, librarians, tech marines, apothecaries, scouts, chapter command etc etc....

Another theory to explain 1000 marines limit is that scouts aren't counted towards the 1000 limit, which free's up a whole 100 marines to cover other duties.

Clarence wrote:Do they just ask other marines from other companies to crew their vehicles for them temporarily?

In the unusual event that an entire Battle Company would actually want to deploy as infantry, yes. That's exactly what the Reserve is for, as the 6th-10th Companies never go into battle just by themselves.

The Space Marine Codex mentions how each strike force is usually an entire Battle Company supplemented by elements of the Reserve, so depending on how deployment is planned, you will either have "unscheduled" Marines from the Battle Company man one of their Rhinos and transport a squad from their own Company (which I imagine to be the standard), or you will have the Reserve step in. Many Marines in a Chapter are multi-trained, capable of filling a lot of roles on an as-needed basis.

See also this excerpt from GW's Index Astartes, detailing the Codex structure.

Clarence wrote:Aren't marines too valuable of a resource to be used doing that?

Not at all. In the 41st millennium, the Rhino is a very valued and revered vehicle, almost an artifact whose care is entrusted only to the most honoured members of a Space Marine Chapter, a Sororitas Convent or an Arbites Precinct. Large battles have been fought over the wrecked hulls of Rhinos destroyed in battle only to recover their remains and restore them to glory. Many Rhinos in a Chapter's service will be hundreds, perhaps even thousands of years old.

See this excerpt from a White Dwarf which I have quoted earlier.

On a more practical and less superstitious note, having Rhinos be crewed by Space Marines also means that the driver and gunner can suffer the same punishment as the Marines they transport, and over their centuries of service may accrue as much battle experience. If the vehicle becomes disabled, they can step out and either perform battlefield repairs with a much greater survivability rate or even join battle on foot with their fellow Brother-Marines.

Thanks Lynata for the insight!

You're quite welcome!

Keep in mind it isn't actually outright stated that it works this way - but given that GW's fluff does state that entire Companies of the Reserve can deploy as squadrons of Land Speeders or Bikes (thereby establishing the multi-role precedent), combined with the bits about combined deployment of Battle and Reserve units (thereby establishing that "missing" slots in a strike force are filled from outside the Battle Company entrusted with a mission), I would say that it is the most viable of the theories out there.

The bit about reserve companies originates with the 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines which stated that the Tactical reserve companies also provided crews for independent armoured formations, but it didn't actually mention transports (at least not on the companies page).

The 3rd edition vanilla codex however included a full breakdown of the Ultramarines chapter - an actual historical snapshop rather than the generic 'this is what the codex astartes says' and it had a footnote saying that all vehicles except Speeders and Bikes have their own crews.

Well, in the Gaunt's Ghost: Salvation Reach novel, the Thunderhawk is piloted by a smarter-than-usual servitor Terek-9-15 (or some other numbers).
If the marines are willing enough to trust a servitor with a Thunderhawk, I'm pretty sure they'll trust a Rhino to one.

Reserve doesn't act as drivers.
Every single chart and pic GW had on chapter organization shows they didn't think about it themselves and just have us find some drivers.
Reserve is there to raise the headcount when neccessary, as squads. Driving their own vehicles...

I'd try to put those WitD into the Dark Angels Rhinos. They are small, like it dark and know how to handle relics.

Totally crewed by Space Marines:

Huh, seems like I should dig out the ole 3E Marine 'dex again. If it truly says that Rhinos etc. have dedicated drivers separate from the squad organisation, I suppose that means they would belong to the Headquarters Staff - just like Apothecaries and Techmarines? Exact wording is key here to ensure that it is referring to "extra" crew rather than "dedicated" crew and other such details that become critical in an analysis like this one.
The bit about "independent armoured formations" also mentioned Land Raiders and Predator tanks, by the way, so there might be a conflict.

Newer than either of these two sources would be White Dwarf Uk issue #300:
"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the support vehicles."

"The reserve companies are just that, reserves. They will be used to replace losses in the battle companies and crew vehicles."

Arcani wrote:Thunderhawk piloted by a smarter-than-usual servitor

Oh boy.

But hey, Dan Abnett thinks Servitors can act as Navigators, too.

1hadhq wrote:Every single chart and pic GW had on chapter organization shows they didn't think about it themselves and just have us find some drivers.

Not at all. I believe that it started out like that, but when they (soon) realised this they added bits and pieces such as the Headquarters Staff or drivers from the Reserve (see WD quote) in subsequent editions and books, explaining how it all adds up without ever dropping the "1.000 rule".

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They are building the Rhino around the Space Marine, or they teleport the Space Marines inside it.

The inside of the model has a very clear Space Marine sized door inside it.

That said, Space Marine vehicles have been consistently listed in official game fluff as being crewed by Space Marines. Having the ability to model the Rhino with a Space Marine popping out of the hatch just sorta runs by the "Rule of Cool". Especially when you look at the model and realize there's no way for a Space Marine to physically fit through that hatch, lol. Hence why I model all of mine with the stormbolter mounted on the remote turret attachment provided with the kit. That's how the original Rhinos were modeled as well.


As far as the discrepancy between the idea of Space Marine crew and "roughly 1000" Marines per chapter, remember this: Logistics was Guilliman's specialty. Not the guys at Games Workshop who write the fluff.

Yeah, it takes well over 400 Marines to crew all of the vehicles listed in Codex: Space Marines 3rd Edition as belonging to the Ultramarines. Then you have to remember that was before the game introduced the idea of the other types of Space Marine flyers, and such.


So, when you apply Common Sense (an unlikely event, I know), you come to the obvious conclusion that the "roughly 1000" applies as a limit to the line strength of a Chapter's infantry forces, and not to it's actual, total end strength of Marines.

Space Marines have been described as multi-role ever since 2E, and the "1.000 warriors rule" has been explained in good detail by now as well.

People are putting too much stock into real world comparisons. This isn't a matter of "common sense" but of taking into account millennia of weird habits and strange rules distorted by bureaucracy and interpretation. If we'd go by "common sense", then half the Imperial fluff would be invalidated.

... and a good deal of contemporary military practices that are just taken for granted because "hurr tradition" as well, I'd reckon.

You're welcome to that nonsense.

On the other hand, I'll stick with Common Sense and invoke your "no real canon" rule since the established material is heavily conflicted and certainly not "in good detail".

Codex: 3E tells me a Space Marine Chapter has closer to 1500 total Space Marines, and nothing since then has definitively contradicted it. That works for me.


From your own link, BTW:

Companies 6 and 7 are Tactical Companies, each consisting of ten Tactical squads. These are intended to act as a reserve and may be used to reinforce the main battle line, launch diversionary attacks or stem enemy flanking moves. The 6th Company is also trained to fight on bikes and the entire Company may be deployed as bike squadrons.
Similarly the 7th Company squads are trained to fight from Land Speeders enabling the Company to fight as a light vehicle reserve formation.
The 8th Company is an Assault Company consisting of ten Assault squads. This is the most mobile Company and is often used wherever a strong hand-to-hand fighting force is needed.
The 9th Company is a Devastator Company, consisting of ten Devastator squads armed with heavy weapons. They anchor defence points and provide long range fire support.

At no point does it suggest the 6th-9th ever serve as vehicle crews. At all points, the Marines are referred to as infantry augments, with the specifically named exceptions as bike/speeder equipped formations. Lacking the specifically named exception as armored vehicle crews, there is no logical assumption is that they serve in that capacity.

Just because an entire company is trained in deploying on bikes does not exclude that there are some who can also drive Rhinos. The simple combination of "multi-role" + "reserves help out the battle companies" in the Index Astartes already constituted a logical enough assumption to me, given that the only other alternative would be to contradict the written studio material and substitute it with people's subjective interpretation of "common sense".

Which you can do, of course, but then we'd arrive at personal preferences rather than "what does GW say". And that is, I think, what OP was most interested in - regardless of the franchise not actually having a "true canon".

Either way, I agree that the White Dwarf I also quoted, and which you apparently ignored, is a much better and more explicit source.

On a sidenote, that issue also contains quite a lot of fluff about general organisation and tactics - I'd recommend it to any Marine fan even regardless of the drivers question.

My own estimates on a Chapter's total Marine count clock in at about 1.100 to 1.200, depending on how large the Headquarters Staff is.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
There are many theories. Firstly that drivers aren't taken into account of companies and they're attached to the tank pool separately, second that companies aren't strictly 100 marines and third and what I believe happens is that the drivers are seconded from reserve companies when in particular full company deployment may be necessary along with chapters not being strictly 1000 marines.... If you take into account command squads etc, then companies and chapters aren't strictly 1000 marines, I'd guess they're more likely 1200 at full strength on the conservative side of the estimate, maybe up to 1500 if all drivers, fleet crew, librarians, tech marines, apothecaries, scouts, chapter command etc etc....

Another theory to explain 1000 marines limit is that scouts aren't counted towards the 1000 limit, which free's up a whole 100 marines to cover other duties.

2 more...

Who says the drivers are marines?
Marine chapters have thousands of serf and servitors to take care of mundane tasks and I imagine that includesdriving.

Or

Who says the drivers are whole marines?
Every chapter has hundreds of failed aspirants and crippled Marines. They cannot fight on the front lines but can be put to work as tank drivers, gunners etc.

I like to imagine whenever we see a marine poking out of a hatch its because he has no legs and is wires from the waist down.

I would think that quote about vehicle crews stemming from the reserve companies was clear enough. Yet the miniatures do speak another language: Sgt. Chronus, the storm talon pilot, the tank commander for the Land Raider are techmarines, thus not belonging to reserve, but to the forge. exception are bikes and land speeders, who are crewed by company brothers, and DA codex states that their flyers are part of the raven wing, not of the forge. I find it highly plausible that tank crew are part of the mechanicus-trained brothers.
But they are definitely no servitors.
Interesting, now obsolete fluff from better times: in the RT Compendium (when all vehicles including Predators were available to all imperial factions) there is stated predator crew are sometimes hardwired into their vehicles as a penalty for misdoing until they perfom an act of valor. Hehe. Penal Dreadnought-Tank Battalions.

Thanks for that RT quote! I remembered it but have never been able to find it.

I still think crippled/failed marines as drivers is still the simplest answer that contradicts the least fluff

I modeled both hatch gunners on my Land Raiders as Techmarines, just as the bitz would suggest. It is at least proven by GW that Chapter tank Commanders are battle brothers, as suggested especially by Sergeant Chronus.

I therefore have always assumed that the Commander(or driver in the case of small-crew tanks like the Rhino) of each tank is a normal Battle Brother, and at least one of the secondary crew are likely Techmarines, probably of a Rank lower than those who would be found in Command Squads.

 Lynata wrote:
Just because an entire company is trained in deploying on bikes does not exclude that there are some who can also drive Rhinos. The simple combination of "multi-role" + "reserves help out the battle companies" in the Index Astartes already constituted a logical enough assumption to me, given that the only other alternative would be to contradict the written studio material and substitute it with people's subjective interpretation of "common sense".

The Codex: Space Marines seems pretty explicit in how it words itself. As opposed to taking the lack of evidence in Index Astartes as evidence. Surely the problem with that is fairly apparent.


Given the fact that Codex: Space Marines 3E supports my argument, and Common Sense supports my argument, I find myself at peace with the level of subjectivity. As should most people, considering the evidence against the explicit wording in C:SM3E is no more convincing or legitimate.

The fluff text for Sergeant Chronus from C:SM5E further reinforces the idea of dedicated tank crews, since Chronus is in charge of 50 Space Marines of the Armory. It is fair to say that Chronus still doesn't answer the question, since 50 is still not nearly enough Marines to crew every vehicle, but then again, it doesn't say that Chronus is the only Sergeant in the Armory either.

Either way, I agree that the White Dwarf I also quoted, and which you apparently ignored, is a much better and more explicit source.

I didn't quote it because there was no relevant material in that article. /shrug If I missed something, by all means, point it out.

The bit about the miniatures is interesting, although I've never noticed it ... looking at the internets, Sergeant Chronus does not bear the sculpted cog symbol that would mark him as a Techmarine, and neither does the Land Speeder pilot.

For the Speeder pilot, one might argue that it's just a matter of painting him with one, but if it's up to the individual painter, where exactly does the Techmarine idea originate? And Chronus has a sculpted Chapter badge, so if he really is supposed to be a Techmarine it would be weird to have him miss it (all new Techmarines have it). There's no cog anywhere, and even on GW's website there's nothing on his armour that makes him stand out as a Techmarine. Note that the red helmet marks a Sergeant in the Ultramarines Chapter, so that's just his rank.

I do agree it's a bit weird for a non-Techmarine to have a servo-arm, but maybe that's just because he is a veteran and thus able to sport some customisation that helps with his job? And if Lexicanum is to be believed, his position within the Ultramarines is unique in that he is the designated commander of a small squadron of armoured vehicles that is not actually a part of any of the companies.
I'll take a glance at the 'dex myself when I get home ... it seems a bit weird that the Ultras, of all Chapters, would disregard the Codex Astartes with the creation of such a formation, but stranger things have happened in the fluff!

For the Land Raider, I've unfortunately not been able to find a good picture of the miniature that comes with it ... I didn't even know GW ships them with a guy included.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Codex: Space Marines seems pretty explicit in how it words itself. As opposed to taking the lack of evidence in Index Astartes as evidence. Surely the problem with that is fairly apparent.

Not really, please demonstrate how you think this "explicit" nature constitutes a problem. Also, when the Index Astartes specifically points out that Space Marines in the reserve companies are multi-trained as infantry and drivers for various vehicles, that's not called "lack of evidence", that is what we call a "precedent". And it fits in perfectly with what WD #300 tells us.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is fair to say that Chronus still doesn't answer the question, since 50 is still not nearly enough Marines to crew every vehicle, but then again, it doesn't say that Chronus is the only Sergeant in the Armory either.

It does say that his position is unique, it seems. Have to check the wording myself tho... I don't trust Lexicanum.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I didn't quote it because there was no relevant material in that article. /shrug If I missed something, by all means, point it out.

Oh, just the bit about the reserve companies being "used to replace losses and crew support vehicles". Like, kind of the entire point of the debate.

@kid kyoto btw and completely offtopic, after having read your post I followed your link to your article "civilian life in 40k". I like that essay, but that short story in part 2 "justice for all" is quite a gem, made me laugh out.

 Hruotland wrote:
@kid kyoto btw and completely offtopic, after having read your post I followed your link to your article "civilian life in 40k". I like that essay, but that short story in part 2 "justice for all" is quite a gem, made me laugh out.

Thanks, that seems a popular one. I have to try and make them all that clever.

Anyway I know I'm indulging in fanon with my theories about servitors and failed aspirants but it makes more sense than 10% of a chapter being rhino drivers!

Lynata wrote:

Newer than either of these two sources would be White Dwarf Uk issue #300:
"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the support vehicles."

Support. Like "heavy support", like fire support..etc.
Not "dedicated transports" . Not vehicles of the battle-companies. Just vehicles from the arsenal.

Lynata wrote:

For the Land Raider, I've unfortunately not been able to find a good picture of the miniature that comes with it ... I didn't even know GW ships them with a guy included.

The "crew" is usually found at the vehicle upgrade sprues ( space marines , IG, superheavies ). A standard Land Raider should have the techy bitz for an upper torso, head arms , shoulderpads at the same extra sprue as the stormbolter, hunter-killer missile etc.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Anyway I know I'm indulging in fanon with my theories about servitors and failed aspirants but it makes more sense than 10% of a chapter being rhino drivers!

Well, drivers and infantry, as the situation demands.

For what it's worth, I could actually see your theory be compatible with GW's material on some level - it does not have to be exclusive when we consider that many/most(?) Chapters deviate from the Codex Astartes on some level, and using cripples slaved to the vehicle as drivers could be a way to circumvent Codex restrictions, or even be done because the Chapter culture has a large focus on machinery ... Iron Hands, anyone?

1hadhq wrote:Support. Like "heavy support", like fire support..etc.
Not "dedicated transports" . Not vehicles of the battle-companies. Just vehicles from the arsenal.

Please refer to the full quotes in this post rather than the condensed form - and note how the second one is referring to vehicles in general.

And I actually made a mistake whilst copying the text; the issue says "supporting vehicles", not "support vehicles". That should be less vague, I presume?

On a sidenote, it can actually be argued that the Rhino is a support vehicle as well, as it serves to augment the Space Marines' innate abilities and tactics by granting them quicker (re)deployment within an ongoing battle. Keep in mind what kind of tactics they use - the Space Marines don't actually use the Rhino like a true transport because they rarely work with strategies that require vehicles driving hundreds of kilometers. That's a job for the Guard.
The Razorback should qualify as a support vehicle even by modern standards, though.

1hadhq wrote:The "crew" is usually found at the vehicle upgrade sprues ( space marines , IG, superheavies ). A standard Land Raider should have the techy bitz for an upper torso, head arms , shoulderpads at the same extra sprue as the stormbolter, hunter-killer missile etc.

I see - similar to the Immolator, I just thought they'd deliver the Land Raider without crew as it looks like a closed vehicle.
So, GW's Land Raider pilot has shoulder pauldrons with an AdMech cog?

In the fluff a single marine is driving it. Squads are "around" 10

So, GW's Land Raider pilot has shoulder pauldrons with an AdMech cog?

There are two figures. One with just the head sticking out of the hatch is normally used as the tank commander, and is presumably a normal Battle Brother. There is also a figure that is "usually" used as the Storm Bolter gunner, who is out of the hatch to his waist, with a power feed into the tank replacing his backpack. That mini comes with a shoulder pad bearing the Mechanicus "Skull and Cog" worn by techmarines, as well as the same symbol replacing the Imperial Eagle on his chest armor.

Lynata wrote:, that is what we call a "precedent".

This word. Does not mean what you appear to think it means.

The only precedent is that there are multiple, conflicting precedents. At no point, however, would the omission of wording be considered valid evidence. What you consider the omitted language supporting one source, others might say the explicit language supports another source.

Again, it comes down to interpretation. Your interpretations are all too often colored with a rejection of Space Marines and a desire to downplay their significance in the fluff and their capabilities. it is little wonder that your suggests should be met with that grain of salt slowly dissolving on the tongue.

On the other hand, my interpretations have always stuck solely to trying to reconcile the material presented in the game in as even a manner as possible, and filling in the gaps based on what makes the most sense. There are plenty of caveats to my opinions, since I prefer common sense, conventional wisdom, real world commonalities, and rational contextual analysis. These things don't always apply to 40K, but this is a situation where, in the face of conflicting information, one simply looks at all of the presented material and makes the best overall choice for interpretation, not simply the one that is most pleasing based on internal bias.

Like I said, and it turns out I didn't ignore your White Dwarf reference, since from the beginning I acknowledged the conflicting information present, players have to decide what sources are most legitimate, and what information makes the most sense.

Codex: Space Marines as the definitive source.
or
A White Dwarf magazine as the definitive source.

A Space Marine Chapter that can operate without perpetually depleting its entire Reserve forces by default.
or
A Space Marine Chapter that is perpetually understrength by token of poor design and has Reserve Companies that have almost no capability to act as reserves, nor to operate even its own organic vehicle assets.


Neither interpretation is wrong, as there is evidence that both of the scenarios are true. Players are free to make the call. I'll take Option 1 in both categories.

In modern military things like transport, support and staff, too are just part of the company structure, e.g. 1st company being staff company, 1st. squad of a given company being the command squad etc. and similar to other "specialist units" within a given formation. This is not the case with GWs space marines, who follow ancient rome, where only the heavy infantry and their centurions were part of the legio's centuria, while the rest like bowmen or cavalry was considered "auxiliares" and not part of the legion.
Yet, the miniatures as well as the vehicle stats clearly indicate full-fledged marines with power-armour, techmarine insignia and ballistic skill 4. While there might be crippled veterans manning the vehicles (fitting together with the fact that meanwhile crew can no longer leave a vehicle and fight on foot like in the old days) this speaks against failed aspirants (scouts are BS3, and they have not failed ... yet) My conclusion is, that there is a pool of techmarines not part of the 1000-headcount manning the vehicles, as the codex smurfs indicates.
That number of 50 men under sgt. Chronus sounds too small, I agree with that. You need 4 crew (including two turret gunners) if you transport a ten man squad in razorbacks, you need two crew for a land raider, At least in the old fluff a predator had 4 crew ( turret/commander, 1 driver and two side sponson gunners), a whirlwind has 2 crew, I would guess a vindicator has three (commander/gunner, driver, loader). Not to count things like thunderhawks and the chapter's fleet. I could imagine the chapters argue that because of the techmarines' loyalty conflict between chapter and AM they do not count against that maximum number of 1000.

Well, count to that the fact that many chapters seem to have their own forges producing equipment, I would guess the AM has more men in every chapter than there are non-techmarine battle brothers.
I do not have a problem at all with the idea that 1 in 10 marines should be driving. Au contraire, in modern army there are 9 supporters behind every soldier actually doing the fighting, I read somewhere. So my personal interpretation of that poorly thought-through SM fluff is that the number of 1000 in the Codex was meant to describe the core of the chapter, the regular battle brothers including the HQ, but not including scouts (not yet full-fledged) and all those techmarines who are skilled in warfare like every battle brother but nevertheless somehow marines 2nd degree, Iron Hands not counting.

Storm Talon pilot is also a Techmarine. Interestingly DA flyers seem to be piloted by ordinary Ravenwing battle-brothers.