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So I was looking at IA1 and saw the specs from the Chimera, and as it did before got te to thinking. Why don't the Space Marines use the Chimera?
I'll list the Pros and Cons
PROS
1. Its Amphibious. Self explanatory there.
2. Its bigger, more room for the gear.
3. It can carry Terminators (I will admit this one is purely pulled from the rules on how Rhinos CAN"T carry Termies and Chimera can)
4. Its better armed. (You can put Autocannons on it and still carry 12 guys. Makes the razorback obsolete.)
5. It has better front armor.
6. Its easier to manufacture.
7. More firing points.

Cons.
1. Less Side Armor
2. No side hatches.


Anyone else have an opinion?

In the fluff, Rhinos are lighter and faster, making them preferred for orbital drop/shock tactics. In addition, they have advanced AI systems, self-repair, and so on. A Rhino only needs 1 Marine to crew it whereas a Chimera requires more manpower to operate.

Forgeworld lists both the Rhino and the Chimera to have the same speed.

I thought only the Land Raider had advanced AI, called a machine spirit.

The Rhino is more easily air-portable, and so is easier to insert/extract from battle-zones by fast-moving and outnumbered forces.

Haven't you made this exact same thread before?

I'm not sure the firing points would help; they're only lasguns.

One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

In the fluff, they are probably closer to equal, even though in tabletop the Chimera is far better.

Coolyo294 wrote:Haven't you made this exact same thread before?

Me, I doubt it. I have commented on someone else s tread before, and got a lot of "NERD RAGED!!!" from my criticisms of the Rhino.

Decio wrote:I'm not sure the firing points would help; they're only lasguns.

You can fire other weapons out the back hatch, Plus the lasguns, which are better then the nothing the Rhino has.

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

This is the most likely reason.

What gets crazier is the fact that in the original Rogue Trader fluff, the Imperial Guard used to be able to take Rhinos and Land raiders.

.. and Leman Russ was just an IG General, not a Primarch.

They are 2 different classes of vehicle.

Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind.


Fluffwise, the Rhino is more rugged and can take more abuse then a Chimera can. Its really only because of a rule loophole that Terminators can embark in Chimeras. Fluffwise, Marines have trouble fitting inside(made for normal humans) although it doesn't explain how Ogryns can fit in too(maybe special retrofits are made)


Rulewise, I'd take a Chimera over a Rhino anyday for my Marines. 15 points over a Rhino to gain 2 transport slots and 2 heavy weapons? Yes please.

A Chimera requires 3 crew , Gunner/ commander , driver , and co- driver / radio man SM use the rhino because it Is airportablr and is easy to repair . the chimera has a top batch which allows inside troops to fire special weaponry rather the. Use the gun ports

Yup tradition and an easy to repair/maintain history. The rhino is a work horse and dependable. It holds a traditional squad, no reason to have more space.

On the tabletop, the Chimera kicks the rhinos butt. But blame the rules for that, not the fluff behind why one side has one or the other.

Just to point out, for the most part i am using FLUFF and not rules. Chimeras should be even easier to maintain then a Rhido since its made for the masses of Imperial Guard to use. Chimeras also have he rear hatch to fire weapons out of.

Also "Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind." Makes no sense, if the marines just care about a box to get there, why are they're Razorbacks? Why wouldn't a marine want extra fire support? You can place an Autocannon on a Chimera, then you have not only a transport, but also the same gun thats on a Predator, that sacrifices transport capacity for that gun.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just to point out, for the most part i am using FLUFF and not rules. Chimeras should be even easier to maintain then a Rhido since its made for the masses of Imperial Guard to use. Chimeras also have he rear hatch to fire weapons out of.

Also "Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind." Makes no sense, if the marines just care about a box to get there, why are they're Razorbacks? Why wouldn't a marine want extra fire support?

. Because Razorbacks at snot only harder to maintain. But require a full gunnery crew to operate , ineffective

Throughout the galaxy, servants of the Emperor take fire and steel to the enemies of Humanity, borne across the hell of uncounted battlefields in armoured fighting vehicles known as Rhinos. These blessed vehicles carry the warriors of the Emperor safely through the inferno of shot and shell to bring the Emperor's fiery retribution upon His enemies. The Rhino has been in Imperial service for over ten thousand years, and the origins of this faithful vehicle lie in the depths of Humanity's past, at the beginning of its expansion into space. [...]

Mankind's expansion into space leapt forwards as starships became capable of reaching further and further into the galaxy. Humanity entered a golden age of exploration and colonisation, and it seemed as though nothing could halt the expansion of Humanity's realm. In conjunction with this, early colonisation of newly discovered worlds was facilitated by the creation of the RH1 N0 Tracked Exploration and Multi Defence vehicle - commonly referred to as the Rhino. At its most basic level, the Rhino is an armoured transport on tracks, designed to cope with all manner of hostile environments and cross almost any dangerous terrain while protecting those within. The efficiency of the design has resulted in the basic configuration of the Rhino remaining largely unchanged in the last ten thousand years. Capable of being constructed from almost any materials and powered by any partially combustible fuel, the Rhino has proven time and time again to be one of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever devised. [...]

Soon, the Rhino became the standard transport vehicle of human armies across the galaxy, with differing variants falling in and out of favour as the nature of Man's enemies and battlefields changed. The armies of Mankind spread throughout the galaxy, and many hundreds of worlds were brought within this growing galactic empire. As more enemies were encountered, the STC systems provided these early armies with many different variants of the Rhino such as the Predator, Immolator and Whirlwind. All this was to come to an end, however, in a period now known as the Age of Strife. [...]

As knowledge of their construction faded from memory, attrition took its toll on the number of Rhinos throughout the galaxy. The rituals of maintenance became debased as the centuries passed and knowledge of the exact workings of the Rhinos passed into myth. Among those who retained the priceless knowledge of their construction were the Techmarines of the newly created Legiones Astartes and the Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who established strict guidelines regarding the construction, consecration and maintenance of these valuable vehicles. Whether built in the Martian weapon-forges of the Adeptus Mechanicus or the fortress monasteries of the Space Marines, the builders of these holy vehicles know that the purity and spiritual welfare of the Rhino is as important as the skill of the artificers who construct it. Over the millennia, scattered pieces of STC lore have been recovered, and ancient designs have slowly been reincorporated into the Imperial inventory. The Immolator tank used by the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas is one such example, the databank containing its construction details discovered within an ancient factory complex on the world of Fornoth during the Icaria Crusade. [...]

Besides the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, only a select few Imperial organisations now have access to Rhinos, the priceless technology involved in their construction and maintenance is too valuable to be entrusted to any but the most loyal and steadfast bodies of warriors. The Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Arbites in particular have a number of Rhinos, and they maintain a body of those sanctified and pure of heart to care for them. Years of training go towards achieving this respected position. Aspirants must learn how to divine the runes of engineering, memorise the liturgy of maintenance and constantly study the routine of service. It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of these armoured transports are mindful of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one. Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle, it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. [...]

Rhinos can be salvaged and are brought back to the forge to have each wound reverently repaired by skilled artificers, the battle scars worn with pride and their war-spirits honoured with the Litanies of Battle. As a result, many Rhinos have remained in service for thousands of years, becoming holy relics amongst the Chapters of Space Marines and other Imperial servants who rely on them. The oldest Rhino in existence belongs to the Salamanders, and is known as Nocturne's Hammer. The Salamanders tell that it carried their legendary Primarch, Vulkan, into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying cut through the gates of the Imperial fortress to attack the foe. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honour in the Chapter's reliquary on Prometheus, its armoured hide scarred by millennia of war. [...]

The Rhino continues to serve as the mainstay of many Imperial organisations, and it is unlikely to be superseded without the discovery of a functioning STC database that will enable Imperial servants to further refine and improve on its design. Until that day, the faithful Rhino will continue to carry the warriors of the Emperor into battle, proof against the weapons of their foes and ready to bring the wrath of the Master of Mankind upon the blasphemous enemies.

-- short excerpt from White Dwarf #269 article "Rhinos", pages 10-13, written by Graham McNeill

tl;dr: yup, pretty much tradition, though it is reportedly also an extremely reliable vehicle, represented in the TT by a special check to negate Immobilised results

I just want to point out Rhino's are Its amphibious as well. That was in the SW codex IIRC.

Fido198674 wrote:I just want to point out Rhino's are Its amphibious as well. That was in the SW codex IIRC.

Looked at both the SM and SW codex again, and nothing on being amphibious. The SW codex rntry did mention that the savages of Fenris use longboats to make journeys so maybe thats what you recall.

Don't you ever get tired of bashing the Astartes? You never pass up a chance to say "Astartes are stupid! Astartes are useless! The Guard and Navy are better! The Imperium should just use the Guard and Navy and throw the Astartes away!"

It does seem silly that the elite guys get the mass-produced crap, while the dog infantry get better armoured and higher quality.

Torque also came up the last time we had this. The Rhino has four engines and a steeper climbing slope than the Chimera does. I would have thought rather than them even getting Rhinos or Chimeras they'd go for Repressors instead.

Why do spacemarines use tracked vehicles at all?
Droppods and T-Hawks make sense, both of them allow realy fast deployment and in the T-Hawk's case, realy fast retreats.
Rhinos and Razorbacks on the other hand are relatively slow, which is a terribly bad thing when your entire strikeforce consists of perhaps a hundred marines.

Tadashi wrote:Don't you ever get tired of bashing the Astartes? You never pass up a chance to say "Astartes are stupid! Astartes are useless! The Guard and Navy are better! The Imperium should just use the Guard and Navy and throw the Astartes away!"

Where exactly do you see anyone "bashing Astartes" in this thread? Seems to me people were merely puzzled at the Rhino - which is not even used exclusively by Space Marines - being held in higher regard than the more common Chimaera.

Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Lynata wrote:
Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Every time Mr. Caboose does something, it always degenerates into showing off the Space Marines' bad sides and showcasing the Imperial Guard off. I am sick and tired of people bashing the Space Marines simply because they dislike the Space Marines - they have a problem with Space Marines, go to GW.

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:
Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Every time Mr. Caboose does something, it always degenerates into showing off the Space Marines' bad sides and showcasing the Imperial Guard off. I am sick and tired of people bashing the Space Marines simply because they dislike the Space Marines - they have a problem with Space Marines, go to GW.

But where has he had a go at Space Marines? He's made some good points as to why the Rhino should be used by other factions and the Space Marines should use better vehicles to transport them.

Maybe you shouldn't take it to heart so much?

Literally nothing he's said has bashed marines in this thread. Since in your other thread about how it was impossible for anyone not a spess marihn to be lord chancellor of the imperium, and accused anyone who suggested otherwise of being a troll, it's probably you who have daddy issues around marines.

Pilau Rice wrote:

But where has he had a go at Space Marines? He's made some good points as to why the Rhino should be used by other factions and the Space Marines should use better vehicles to transport them.

Maybe you shouldn't take it to heart so much?

I don't know...this thread just really popped a vein on my forehead (figuratively...if something really did pop, I'd be in the hospital right now) considering I've been holding in lots of steam - ever since I came to Dakka, this guy jumps on everything the Space Marines do and says the Guard could do it better. Heck, this even insists that the Imperium would do fine without any Astartes at all.

Testify wrote:Literally nothing he's said has bashed marines in this thread. Since in your other thread about how it was impossible for anyone not a spess marihn to be lord chancellor of the imperium, and accused anyone who suggested otherwise of being a troll, it's probably you who have daddy issues around marines.

Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs. I'm going to look for all the posts...this might take a while.

Found them...

1)

I see the tau-iom war as something like the eastern front during world war 2. Only with the tau being the size of luxemburg. And the soviets like the size of the rest of the world. The only thing is is that aliens are attacking and the soviets cant bring the full force to bear.

And you really dont even need the astrades. Catachann, eleysian, and harkonian style regiments can provide all of the mobile elelments and then some. I mean the Imperial Guard only provides like 99.99999999999999999% of the Imperiums fighting forces, at least planet side. Let the ultrasmurfs do more important things. Like polishing their armor...

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/412954.page#3612915

2)

Yeah tau ship are glass cannons at best, but mostly inferior death traps. The imperial fleet is clearly better. At least in bfg stats.

So since the Imperium can get space superiority they can pretty much win any planetary battle. Is how it should work.

Of course tau have a plot armor that rivals space marines. And the real defenders of the imperium get flanderized into poorly trained conscripts. It happens.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/412954.page#3617752

3)

Like i said, glory boys who hide in their fortresses and polish there armor. Oh and some go crazy if they get disfigured. *cough*capt. Tycho*cough*

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415446.page#3658320

4)

At least we can agree that an off duty sister has more fun then an off duty marine. Judging on how shiny marine armor is they must spend hours polishing it. Blood angels even more so.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/415001.page#3687479

5)

I still stand by that the majority of marines, esp blood angels, spend their free time polishing their armor. It goes like this.

"Incoming distress signal Brother Captain." said Battle Brother Marticuis Suicles "Chaos maraders are attacking the Imperial planet Bob, the pdf tried to respond but where killed to a man"

"Not now Brother Suicles, Im polishing the gold inlays of my armor"

"Very well sir"

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/415001.page#3689353

6)

Never let your armor get dirty. Polish at all cost.

Never were thy helmet in combat. Tis unmanly.

Never use tactics that make sense.

Never be reasonable.

Never let the Guard get credit for anything.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dude no way could 1000 marines take a planet. Some exceptions do apply.

A marine is worth only about 10 guardsmen acording to some fluff. So your 1000 marines would lose to 10000+ other soldiers.

And plus the Imerial Guard does 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the IoM fighting. They're the true defenders of the Imperium. Mahreens are just posers.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/421708.page#3765795

7)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Pretty much how i play it in my rpgs. Except the space marines are dicks, like how they are in the canon. And the Eldar are like they are in the fluff as well, as likely to help you as to kill you. Now the Tau are usually bad guys, especially if its set on the eastern (space has no east fool) front. But its mostly the human infiltrators causing havok. And the Tau arent bad, i guess i should say their usually the antagonist.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/431765.page#3954092

8)

It would have to be about an IG regiment. Space marines are way too boring. Talk about a snooze fest. SM walks into a room bullets bouncing harmlessly off his armor. Yawn.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/447453.page#4245756

9)

Space marines would have no character. The audience would have no empathy. All the show would be is action. No character development. No intregue. Nothing worth watching.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/447453.page#4245756

10)

I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.

I've never hidden that I believe that the IG/IN are the better military force in the IoM and that it could survive without the Marines where the IoM could not survive without the IG/IN. But this was a serious discussion on why the elites of the Imperium are cruising around in what appears to be an inferior APC/IFV (Rhino/Razorback.)

Testify wrote:It does seem silly that the elite guys get the mass-produced crap, while the dog infantry get better armoured and higher quality.

Rhinos are not mass produced, many are older then the current chapter master. They can get beaten, bombarded and all around abused an they will come back ith a vengeance.
Chimeras are mass produced to be build to throw away. They may have thicker armor, but they dont have the survivability of a rhino beyond that. And with astartes moving around alot/not always in contact with the imperium they have to have a vehicle that is easily repaired.