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Now, I've challenged the best player at my FLGS to a 2500-point match. It's my first time facing him in over a year, and everyone at the store is insisting that he's going to kick my sorry behind across the table. I plan on proving them wrong. Now, this player plays blood angels, and is very good at it. As I previously stated, he's considered the best among us, and for good reason. He all but annihilated a veteran Tyranid player last week.

This Blood Angel player likes to field a lot of jump infantry with limited Storm Raven, Land Raider and Drop Pod support, as one might expect. I want to know some strategies for countering the BA "Jump in your face and murder you" strategy, as I've no previous experience with fighting Angels.

I run three armies that I often combine into allied forces, Imperial Guard, Gray Knights, and Tau. My preferred stratagem involves a combined squad of guardsmen accompanied by a Commissar(With four powerfists within the entire unit), and using Creed to shove a bunch of Executioners in the enemies' face with proper Vendetta flyer support, and either Tau fire support, or Gray Knight melee support, depending on what I'm up against.

So! I must ask, with the information provided, could I receive some advice/tricks/tactics for combating blood angels?

Other than the fact that there are many lists the BA can no longer murder? The BA got nerfed by 6th edition hard. Very hard. It might work against some people, but this guy is eventually going to be brought back to reality against a CSM list or a Space Wolf list. Or Deathwing. I could go on.

Bring lots of psyriflemen. Watch the look of horror as you deny all their FNP rolls. BA ASM squads can't do squat to terminators. Whatever he drops in with the drop pod, shoot it off the table. Basically, find a thread about how to own ASM and just follow that.

"Veteran" Tyranid players should not be losing to the 6th edition BA.

Well first of all, do you want to tailor your list to combat blood angels or specifically your enemy's list or are you just looking for general advice?
Also, how do you run a combined squad of guardsmen with four powerfists? I am rather sure that only Lord Commissars can take power fists unless you're playing a Krieg army.

I don't have to much experience in fighting BA, but I'd say Grey Knights rock against Blood Angels, especially if they have the halberds or what ever they are called... the +2 ini power weapons. These darlings will usually let you strike first, even if your enemy gets his fc charge, and still ignore power armor and fnp tests. (Unless somehow rules changed without me knowing)

Oh, and battlecannons instagib entire squads of ASM.

Try to present units for him to assault that you don't care about; then counter attack because BA are vulnerable to counter assaults. Unlike, say, Space Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA no longer have init 5 on the charge. So you don't even need to worry about that. As I said, I think jump pack lists are kinda neutered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You need to get up to STR 8 or be using a charged force weapon to ignore FNP. So if they are force weapons that they can charge up to instant death, then, yes no FNP for the BA. Even more depressing for us.

 Fire_for_effect wrote:
Well first of all, do you want to tailor your list to combat blood angels or specifically your enemy's list or are you just looking for general advice?
Also, how do you run a combined squad of guardsmen with four powerfists? I am rather sure that only Lord Commissars can take power fists unless you're playing a Krieg army.

I don't have to much experience in fighting BA, but I'd say Grey Knights rock against Blood Angels, especially if they have the halberds or what ever they are called... the +2 ini power weapons. These darlings will usually let you strike first, even if your enemy gets his fc charge, and still ignore power armor and fnp tests. (Unless somehow rules changed without me knowing)

Sorry, 1 Power Fist on the Commissar, 3 Power Weapons on the sergeants.
As for the Halberds, that actually sounds pretty secure, but equipping the Falchions + adding a librarian and using Quicksilver deals out instant death like nothing I've ever seen.

But, I'm just asking for Blood Angel strengths and weaknesses. I know they're great at jumping into melee as soon as possible, so learning a strategy to take advantage of this would be great.

Yeah, for guard, you have a LOT of splatcannon options. For only 375 points you can take 3 basilisks, which will destroy anything that deepstruck, and can peel HP off of other vehicles as well.

I've traditionally struggled against BA with my guard army, but that's in part due to a long string of bad luck against them on my part, and because BA are one of those armies you need to bring special equipment to fight (like how you need autocannons against DE skimmer spam, or lascannons against necron).

In you're case, you know you're going to be up against them, so just throw a bunch of large blasts into the list, and you'll do fine.

It's pretty simple: shoot as many as you can, and then have sacrificial troops to take the charges, and then shoot them some more, and counter assault with units that will kill them.

MSU is your friend vs the BA and many assault armies in general.

A couple good battle cannon hits will literally end this match. I know; it's happened to me.

Oh, and Gray Knights equipped with a Brotherhood Banner automatically pass psychic tests when concerning Force Weapons. So, all Grey Knights with a Banner have instant-death power weapons, as well as +1 attack each.

Spam Paladins.

/thread

Martel732 wrote:
It's pretty simple: shoot as many as you can, and then have sacrificial troops to take the charges, and then shoot them some more, and counter assault with units that will kill them.

MSU is your friend vs the BA and many assault armies in general.

A couple good battle cannon hits will literally end this match. I know; it's happened to me.

What about the Executioner? Or is that just plain overkill?

In fact, I think its safe to say that BA jump pack armies are only still dangerous at all because of match ups vs all comers lists. Against tailored lists, the BA are really bad.


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What does the executioner do? If it costs extra, you might want to go as cheap as possible. Maybe just Leman Russ tanks with just the cannon. I don't know all possible options for guard. But ideally you want as much STR 8 and instant death as possible.

BA special characters mostly suck now. I take that back; *all* BA HQ mostly suck, so if he doubles up there, that's another advantage for you.

Martel732 wrote:
In fact, I think its safe to say that BA jump pack armies are only still dangerous at all because of match ups vs all comers lists. Against tailored lists, the BA are really bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What does the executioner do? If it costs extra, you might want to go as cheap as possible. Maybe just Leman Russ tanks with just the cannon. I don't know all possible options for guard. But ideally you want as much STR 8 and instant death as possible.

BA special characters mostly suck now. I take that back; *all* BA HQ mostly suck, so if he doubles up there, that's another advantage.

An Executioner is a 40-point upgrade from the LRBT, armed with an Executioner Plasma Cannon, a 36" range, str 7, AP2, Heavy 3 blast cannon.
Pretty good for spamming blast templates, that's for sure.

No, you don't want that because STR 7 gives FNP rolls. You are paying more to nerf yourself. Just use battle cannons, force weapons, and get some plasma IG schmucks in a transport in case the sanguinary guard show up. Or maybe melta. You get the idea. Just have some AP 2 stuff in your back pocket, but don't go overboard.

Martel732 wrote:
No, you don't want that because STR 7 gives FNP rolls. You are paying more to nerf yourself. Just use battle cannons, force weapons, and get some plasma IG schmucks in a transport in case the sanguinary guard show up. Or maybe melta. You get the idea. Just have some AP 2 stuff in your back pocket, but don't go overboard.

It's more accurate than the LRBT though. Especially as you can have 5 plasma blasts. On average the LRBT hits about once every turn, whereas you'll get about 2-3 full on plasma hits per turn with the executioner. It also forces your opponent to make his DS troops run rather than shoot, or be nice and clustered up for 5 small plasma blasts. They're more killy than LRBTs, even with FNP.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, you don't want that because STR 7 gives FNP rolls. You are paying more to nerf yourself. Just use battle cannons, force weapons, and get some plasma IG schmucks in a transport in case the sanguinary guard show up. Or maybe melta. You get the idea. Just have some AP 2 stuff in your back pocket, but don't go overboard.

It's more accurate than the LRBT though. Especially as you can have 5 plasma blasts. On average the LRBT hits about once every turn, whereas you'll get about 2-3 full on plasma hits per turn with the executioner. It also forces your opponent to make his DS troops run rather than shoot, or be nice and clustered up for 5 small plasma blasts. They're more killy than LRBTs, even with FNP.

Yes, a fully-"plasmafied" Executioner is basically a non-gets hot rape train. A full squad of them can essentially be described as "Raining Plasma".

 797th Red Tigers wrote:


Yes, a fully-"plasmafied" Executioner is basically a non-gets hot rape train. A full squad of them can essentially be described as "Raining Plasma".

I wouldn't take more than one executioner. They're a little too costly and once they unleash hell, they'll be target priority number one (which is really useful for a tank with AV:14).

I'm not entirely sure what list you're looking to run using guard, but the tactics will vary on that.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 797th Red Tigers wrote:


Yes, a fully-"plasmafied" Executioner is basically a non-gets hot rape train. A full squad of them can essentially be described as "Raining Plasma".

I wouldn't take more than one executioner. They're a little too costly and once they unleash hell, they'll be target priority number one (which is really useful for a tank with AV:14).

I'm not entirely sure what list you're looking to run using guard, but the tactics will vary on that.

I usually run with a mechanized list with one Vendetta and one footsloging combined squad of thirty packed with power weapons, either allied with Grey Knights or Tau.

I'd highly recommend going all mech or all foot. Mixing and matching is a great way to give your opponent varied guns something to shoot at. Target saturation is key.
It works great with mech because both troops and HS are then AV:12,10,10. Making that choice rather difficult.

What do you use the allies for? I'd ditch tau, they're like a poor-mans' guard right now. However GK, especially henchmen spam or purifiers are pretty good. Again all mech'd up to have horrible target saturation for your opponent.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'd highly recommend going all mech or all foot. Mixing and matching is a great way to give your opponent varied guns something to shoot at. Target saturation is key.
It works great with mech because both troops and HS are then AV:12,10,10. Making that choice rather difficult.

What do you use the allies for? I'd ditch tau, they're like a poor-mans' guard right now. However GK, especially henchmen spam or purifiers are pretty good. Again all mech'd up to have horrible target saturation for your opponent.

I use the footsloggers because a squad of thirty with a Commisar and four Power Weapons is excellent at holding the relic.
Tau Crisis battlesuits are the best metaphorical swiss army knife I could ever ask for, and they do surprisingly decent in CC too. They can pop in an out behind my wall of Russes, never dying.
The Grey Knight Terminators/Interceptor Squad + Grand Master is the best thing any guard player could ask for holding objectives.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:

I use the footsloggers because a squad of thirty with a Commisar and four Power Weapons is excellent at holding the relic.
Tau Crisis battlesuits are the best metaphorical swiss army knife I could ever ask for, and they do surprisingly decent in CC too. They can pop in an out behind my wall of Russes, never dying.
The Grey Knight Terminators/Interceptor Squad + Grand Master is the best thing any guard player could ask for holding objectives.

I'll disagree with all those statements. Here's why:

Commissars are incredibly easy to snipe out a squad now. They don't last long in there, even if you hide them at the back. 30 man blob running towards the relic is a great target for bolters which in a full mech army would have nothing to shoot at. You've validated your opponent's small arms on turn 1 or 2. Similarly, they're prime target for anti-horde, which every TAC list brings. It'd have no effect against mech, but you have just validated it.
Now if you went the other way, full infantry, that small amount of bolter fire and anti-horde fire would be insufficient. Target saturation.

Tau Crisis suits may be relative all-rounders, but who needs an all-rounder when you're playing guard? You have access to a cheap and efficacious specialist for every single eventuality. The guard army is the swis army knife. Except it's better. The guard codex is like an arsenal. There's a unit for every eventuality.

GK terminators are neither especially resilient compared to other terminators, nor are they cheap enough to sit on an objective. They again provide validation for your opponents guns, namely those AP2 guns that everyone is such a fan of in this edition. Frankly I'm finding terminators to be rather lacking in 6th. There's so much AP2 shooting around that they drop like anything.
That aside, SW would be better allies. You can get a rune priest with access to divination and cheaper, just as resilient (if they're in cover, but why the hell wouldn't they be?) scoring troops. On top of that you get psychic defence, which is good against BA with their librarian love.
The SW can also be mech'd up too, giving even more target saturation.

All these things add up, if you're taking points away from your AV:12 saturation, then your opponent is less likely to have trouble with it. Meaning that it's not longer effective saturation and your opponent won't have trouble with target priority since he can deal with each individual flavor unit you have brought in your list.

 Griddlelol wrote:

I'll disagree with all those statements. Here's why:

Commissars are incredibly easy to snipe out a squad now. They don't last long in there, even if you hide them at the back. 30 man blob running towards the relic is a great target for bolters which in a full mech army would have nothing to shoot at. You've validated your opponent's small arms on turn 1 or 2. Similarly, they're prime target for anti-horde, which every TAC list brings. It'd have no effect against mech, but you have just validated it.
Now if you went the other way, full infantry, that small amount of bolter fire and anti-horde fire would be insufficient. Target saturation.

Tau Crisis suits may be relative all-rounders, but who needs an all-rounder when you're playing guard? You have access to a cheap and efficacious specialist for every single eventuality. The guard army is the swis army knife. Except it's better. The guard codex is like an arsenal. There's a unit for every eventuality.

GK terminators are neither especially resilient compared to other terminators, not are they cheap enough to sit on an objective. They again provide validation for your opponents guns, namely those AP2 guns that everyone is such a fan of in this edition. Frankly I'm finding terminators to be rather lacking in 6th. There's so much AP2 shooting around that they drop like anything.
That aside, SW would be better allies. You can get a rune priest with access to divination and cheaper, just as resilient (if they're in cover, but why the hell wouldn't they be?) scoring troops. On top of that you get psychic defence, which is good against BA with their librarian love.
The SW can also be mech'd up too, giving even more target saturation.

All these things add up, if you're taking points away from your AV:12 saturation, then your opponent is less likely to have trouble with it. Meaning that it's not longer effective saturation and your opponent won't have trouble with target priority since he can deal with each individual flavor unit you have brought in your list.

As for your first point, when that blob of thirty guard makes it to melee, holy heck, do they rip up the enemy. Stubborn is one hell of a blessing. I usually focus fire on enemy anti-infantry first turn, so the footsloggers can enter melee mostly intact.

The Battlesuits are surprisingly effective when paired with Leeman Russes. Why? Because they can hide behind a Russ after shooting, fully obscured. And when the enemy reaches the Russ line, the Crisis suits can be used to tie up the enemy in combat while the tanks retreat.

And as expensive as the Terminators are, holy HELL, are they good at holding objectives. Also, with a Grand Master, you can make an Interceptor Squad a scoring unit. You can literally grab the relic or any other objective on turn 1.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:


As for your first point, when that blob of thirty guard makes it to melee, holy heck, do they rip up the enemy. Stubborn is one hell of a blessing. I usually focus fire on enemy anti-infantry first turn, so the footsloggers can enter melee mostly intact.

Except they don't. 30 guardsmen won't make it very far. If they do manage to get into assault without being mangled, your sergeants are stuck not being able to swing because they can't get within 2". Stubbon is easily sniped out by the time the slow moving unit has gotten anywhere. Also, why would you want them stubborn? That just means you can't shoot at the target. It's crippling you for no reason. Nor does it diminish the fact that you are limiting your AV:12, which means the AT your opponent brought will be enough to deal with what your brought.

The Battlesuits are surprisingly effective when paired with Leeman Russes. Why? Because they can hide behind a Russ after shooting, fully obscured. And when the enemy reaches the Russ line, the Crisis suits can be used to tie up the enemy in combat while the tanks retreat.

That's no different to having any other LOS blocking unit, and the points you spent on *scoff* fire warriors and the rather weak commander, could have been spent on another Russ or artillery.

And as expensive as the Terminators are, holy HELL, are they good at holding objectives. Also, with a Grand Master, you can make an Interceptor Squad a scoring unit. You can literally grab the relic or any other objective on turn 1.

They're as good as any other terminator. Which is not all that great. There's also no reason to be on an objective by turn one. The relic is basically a KP game in disguise, and I don't think I've ever had a relic game whereby the winning player even touched the relic whole game.

All in all, your reasons are rather flimsy. You're adding too many dimensions to your list. Fine, if you think that's fun go with it, but it's not tactically sound.

Alright, I'll take your word for it, but these strategies I've mentioned are all ones that I've used before, successfully. Anyway, I thank all of you for contributing, I now have enough knowledge to take on blood angels.

Russes, Bassalisks, and a lot of Dakka.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:
Alright, I'll take your word for it, but these strategies I've mentioned are all ones that I've used before, successfully.

Not trying to be rude, but that's not an argument for them being viable strategies. It's as much an argument that you play against poor opponents.

However, good luck with killing BA. I've generally found that BA are one of the best match ups for Mech guard, so you should be able to handle him neatly.

I understand the points going back and for here, but the key is to make sure he has some mook squad to assault, and then counter assault.

Terminators are no more vulnerable to shooting now than they were in 5th, and much better off in HTH, due to the nerfing of power weapons. But I still wouldn't go nuts with. They are, however, one of the things that stops jumper BA lists cold.

Martel732 wrote:
I understand the points going back and for here, but the key is to make sure he has some mook squad to assault, and then counter assault.

I disagree. Guard do completely fine without a counter assault unit. The men die, then you proceed to shoot whatever won the combat. Counter-assault is something for MEQ that don't have combat tactics; when assaults can become protracted and bog down precious points.
Similarly, the chimera is essentially that "mook squad" in a mech list, and with enough vets, who cares if you lose one or two to assault? The rest will clear up whatever won. You seem to be thinking about this from an MEQ angle, not a cheap guard perspective.

Terminators are no more vulnerable to shooting now than they were in 5th, and much better off in HTH, due to the nerfing of power weapons. But I still wouldn't go nuts with. They are, however, one of the things that stops jumper BA lists cold.

While I agree with you in theory, in practice the results are much different. Yes, on the surface 2+ saves got better, but there was a huge backlash to this when everyone started packing heat in the form of plasma. Go look at the army lists section, it's like plasma is the new black, and for good reason. It just got better in 6th, as well as dealing with the 2+ saves that also got better. Hell, I love it, there's rarely melta anywhere in my local scene and so it takes a lot more to down my mech lists.
Terminators do stop the jumpers cold, but so does massed shooting in the form of plasma, melta, basilisks and medusae. A stationary chimera with plasma vets can quite easily cripple a jumper squad the turn it deep strikes, or while it hops around the table.

I really find the BA threats to be the dev squad sitting in ruins or the vehicles that can kill troops and transports alike, rather than the jumpers. They're a mild annoyance that come down on turn two, hopefully after the real threats have been crippled.

That's funny because I still use a ton of melta, and I never use devs with BA. Melta is still the king of killing stuff, not plasma.

Sure, IG can shoot instead of counter assaulting. Their shooting after the BA wipe up one squad IS their version of counter assault.

Martel732 wrote:
That's funny because I still use a ton of melta, and I never use devs with BA. Melta is still the king of killing stuff, not plasma.

Agreed. I've been playing BA's successfully this season and have to loose a match yet. I play 3 Jumper Squads, each of them with 2 Melta Guns. I often use combat tactics and DoA on them, which makes them awesome mech hunters.

Mobility is the key of the BA army, most of the strategy to beat them is based on your deployment (which needs to be tight)... Haven't played against IG yet though... and I think it's one of our worst matchups.

Just wait till you run into lists you can't beat in HTH. The number of lists that soft counter and hard counter jumper lists has gone up a lot in 6th.

Make a solid defensive line, aegis with quad, coteaz, 2 10 man strike squads with 2 psycannons and psybolt. Use warp quake, and with coteaz IBEY, the drop pods and deeps strikers are no longer a threat. Maybe back this up with a large platoon and a russ executioner, to make a gunline, and shoot you opponent to death as he comes at you.

Then take a vendetta, and a raven or two, this is your anti flyer along woth the quad.

Also gk force weapon ignore feel no pain, dreadknights and paladins could also work.