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Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

I've always been of the mindset that Dedicated Transports should be a wargear option, so I approve of this change GW will never do.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I've always been of the mindset that Dedicated Transports should be a wargear option, so I approve of this change GW will never do.


I mean....it used to be a thing, I remember in 4th having to purchase a unit specific transport.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

Really? Neat. I just got into 40k with 8th, so I can't really comment on the older stuff.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
tulun wrote:
If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.

At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.

Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat.


The thing is... it's not a threat. Even without losses from overwatch, they can usually take out one unit like cultists, pox walkers or guardsmen, but anything slightly tougher and they simply fall to kill it and then get gunned down. If you face someone who just bought his first primaris army, you need three units of trukk boyz to get through his 170 point intercessor unit - assuming the three trukks manage to kill the last marine.



I mean, I also don't necessarily think that 89 points of a unit with no AP (outside of the Nob) should necessarily slaughter a 2W power armour unit twice its cost. I'm sure they bounce of a 105 point MANz unit too.

If we could start fielding Deathskull PKs, this math might actually get a bit better (re-roll to hit, wound, and damage might actually make klaws okay). I bet that would turn out a bit better if you wanted them to specifically take out Intercessors (and only bumps the cost of the trukk boyz to 97 points).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 03:02:26


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

I think it bears mentioning that 12 Trukk Boyz would, by necessity, HAVE to cost more than 97 pts. Because you need a Trukk to deliver them, and that costs like 64 pts (or something, Codex isn't in front of me right now). So, you'd be looking at around 150 pts. If it would take 3 units of these to take out a 170 pt Intercessor unit, that's 450ish pts spent, which is pretty significant. Especially since you could spend 255 pts for a 15 strong unit of Badmoonz Lootas and accomplish the same thing (30 shots, 13 hits, 8.6 Wounds, 11.5 Damage on average, which you can double with Shoot Twice).

Alternatively, if you're looking to threaten your opponent with being tied in CC, you could spend the same 450 pts and get 2 17 strong and 1 16 strong units of Storm Boyz which will move just as quickly and be far more threatening in CC when they get there. Sure, you lose the ablative Wounds, but you also don't got to worry about losing models if a vehicle is destroyed (you can expect to lose 2 Trukk Boyz, on average, if their vehicle is popped).

Basically, at the moment, anything you'd want Trukk Boyz for, you have far more efficient units to fill the role. To be viable, they'd need a complete overhaul, or a significant reduction in cost.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I think it bears mentioning that 12 Trukk Boyz would, by necessity, HAVE to cost more than 97 pts. Because you need a Trukk to deliver them, and that costs like 64 pts (or something, Codex isn't in front of me right now). So, you'd be looking at around 150 pts. If it would take 3 units of these to take out a 170 pt Intercessor unit, that's 450ish pts spent, which is pretty significant. Especially since you could spend 255 pts for a 15 strong unit of Badmoonz Lootas and accomplish the same thing (30 shots, 13 hits, 8.6 Wounds, 11.5 Damage on average, which you can double with Shoot Twice).

Alternatively, if you're looking to threaten your opponent with being tied in CC, you could spend the same 450 pts and get 2 17 strong and 1 16 strong units of Storm Boyz which will move just as quickly and be far more threatening in CC when they get there. Sure, you lose the ablative Wounds, but you also don't got to worry about losing models if a vehicle is destroyed (you can expect to lose 2 Trukk Boyz, on average, if their vehicle is popped).

Basically, at the moment, anything you'd want Trukk Boyz for, you have far more efficient units to fill the role. To be viable, they'd need a complete overhaul, or a significant reduction in cost.


Hmm. So I think your example is really unfair to the usefulness / useless of Trukk Boyz.

I totally agree with the premise that Trukks are too expensive (in fact, most transports are too expensive, in all likelihood). I would say its a better contrast to see if taking 10-12 Boyz is worth it over taking their substitute: 10 grots.

You need roughly 18 attacks in CC to kill 1 Intercessor (or 6 boyz). With the shooting, you can probably get to about 2 dead from the 11 boyz. The Nob w/ BC kills one (let's assume it's a Deathskullz mob, so you save your rerolls for the Nob). With a PK and all the rerolls, he might kill 2.

So, depending on your kit, it's 2.5-3 trukk boy mobs. Not the most efficient, I agree.

But to be honest, the Stormboyz don't fair that much better. The point of the trukk *is* the ablative wounds; it's much easier to move up the board in the trukk than it is simply by moving up the board. Stormboyz die pretty easily. So in your example, if the trukk pops from shooting and kills a couple boyz, why wouldn't they be thinning down the FA boyz?

It's also not really precise to say the usefulness of either of those units is only their ability to kill Primaris marines, which is just far too narrow. Lootas, of course, are better at killing heavy infantry; its literally what they are made to do. But we can't take those as troops, and they have other problems (IE, the actual cost of Lootas is actually the insane amount of CP you need to fund them, plus grot shields, etc, etc...)

I think the subtle question I'd ask is this: because having this transport gives you ablative wounds (makes the unit inside more resistant to small arms fire), prevents a single unit from killing both in 1 round of shooting (disembark rolls *shouldn't* kill you without a really unlucky roll), gives you something to screen units, tag units, etc. Is this useful enough in competitive play? ITC?

I could imagine a world of a 30 point trukk where you may just throw 10 grots inside to go after objectives. And maybe there, you'll find yourself upgrading to 10-12 boyz just so they can actually have a shot at killing something, as opposed to basically nothing.
   
Made in it
Wild Wyrdboy with Minderz




Italy

Here's the thing about trukk boyz: they used to be a way to deliver a PK where it needed to be, providing to that nob some speed, protection and ablative wounds. Now that everything got tons of wounds and we've got two other effective options to get into the right position (Da Jump and Tellyporta) the unit like we knew is dead.

More attacks for the boyz won't change that much and in previous editions even if they charged their crappy initiative would cause them casualties before striking so the number of attacks is probably even better now.

Even if the trukk gets a fair new price (45-50, certainly not 30), and the PK goes down to 9pts this kind of unit would have little purpose. A D6 damage PK wouldn't change much either, it should be damage flat 4 or probably more and it's certainly not going to happen. Not at 9-13 points at least.

The mechanics of 40k are now completely different than the previous editions and now it's probably the time to make trukks work for elites. I think nobz should get a buff with 1-2 more attacks if they charge, and that would make trukks a fair option for them. Bustas and gitz are already ok but some price reductions for both the transport and the gitz should help too. Also burnaboyz could benefit from a trukk if they get an appropriate datasheet.

But to make trukk boyz work (aka compete with full mobz of boyz) seems quite hard without some significant re-write of the datasheet.

One interesting change could be giving that +1A for units of boyz that are 10 or LESS models, while bigger mobz get to keep the morale bonus. That would maybe create some tactical choice between fielding big or small mobz as they both get a bonus, but of different type.

To get rid of the the need of disposing of 18+ CPs GW should re-write other units, like lootas and bustas which are way overcosted at 17ppm unless you invest 5-6 CPs per turn on them. But if you make them cheaper competitive players will change nothing, they'd just add a few more things on the table. Unfortunately (or luckily, if you like the mechanics) this edition of 40k is designed around buffing the units with auras, traits, klan rules, stratagems, etc... like it or not it's how 40k works now and if you can get 2x shooting (or even better with More Dakka) and similar buffs, competitive gaming will always go into the direction of maximizing the most powerful combos. If the army gets enough buffs to get rid of the need of using (abusing) those combos it would probably mean that the army has become broken.

In casual games playing with no gretchins and 9-10 CPs is already fine.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 5000
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Thing is full 30 strong mobs take up somuch space on the board.
Trukk boyz don’t have that issue. I would love to be able to field (in a comp environment) 3 units of each, and my last battalion would be grots.
If GW design team did their job right, we could field competitively
3*12 trukk boyz
3*30 boyz
3*10 grots
And I think most players would absolutely love that. We could put the new shiny buggies along those trukks too, you the things GW probably aren’t currently selling much, and would probably like to sell a lot more.
If they were half decent at designing xenos stuff (they are getting less bad, sowe should not abandon all hope just yet)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 10:04:13


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





tulun wrote:
Hmm. So I think your example is really unfair to the usefulness / useless of Trukk Boyz.

I totally agree with the premise that Trukks are too expensive (in fact, most transports are too expensive, in all likelihood). I would say its a better contrast to see if taking 10-12 Boyz is worth it over taking their substitute: 10 grots.

I disagree 100%. Gretchin serve no purpose beside being wounds on the board, while boyz are a unit with a clear role on the battlefield. If anything, two units of trukk boyz should be equal to 30 boyz + 10 gretchin.

You need roughly 18 attacks in CC to kill 1 Intercessor (or 6 boyz). With the shooting, you can probably get to about 2 dead from the 11 boyz. The Nob w/ BC kills one (let's assume it's a Deathskullz mob, so you save your rerolls for the Nob). With a PK and all the rerolls, he might kill 2.

So, depending on your kit, it's 2.5-3 trukk boy mobs. Not the most efficient, I agree.

That's some pretty generous rounding though. The average amount of primaris casualties you can expect from a unit of trukk boyz with a PK is 2.86, assuming a trukk ate all the overwatch. So, let's assume you actually got 3, they strike back with 22 attacks and kill 6 of your boyz. To kill those 10 intercessors(or any other primaris unit), you not only need 291 worth of boyz, but also 192 points of trukks, for a total of 483 points. In comparison: A grokanaut and three units of gretchin are 401, three KBB for 300, which are considered to be a solid meh can kill 3 primaris from 36" away.

But to be honest, the Stormboyz don't fair that much better. The point of the trukk *is* the ablative wounds; it's much easier to move up the board in the trukk than it is simply by moving up the board. Stormboyz die pretty easily. So in your example, if the trukk pops from shooting and kills a couple boyz, why wouldn't they be thinning down the FA boyz?

Because multi-damage weapons are actually efficient at killing trukks. While a lascannon is wasted on a 31 point smasha, when shooting 64 point trukks, it's gaining back its points.
On top of that, if the trukk goes boom, it takes down two boyz with him, leaving the mob at 10 models, so a unit of trukk boyz has an average of 21 wounds. If you consider that the trukk is roughly twice as resilient to S4 fire as boyz, it evens out. But as you can't turn 12 shots into any more wounds than 12 against storm boyz, they actually have more staying power, not less.
In addition, storm boyz are much faster, can pull off first turn charges and charge over screens, trukk boyz can do neither - they are actually quite likely to get stopped by screens.
Also don't forget that a trukk degrades - once it has lost 5 wounds, it's actually faster to get out and advance than to keep riding.

It's also not really precise to say the usefulness of either of those units is only their ability to kill Primaris marines, which is just far too narrow. Lootas, of course, are better at killing heavy infantry; its literally what they are made to do. But we can't take those as troops, and they have other problems (IE, the actual cost of Lootas is actually the insane amount of CP you need to fund them, plus grot shields, etc, etc...)

The reality is that the majority of the armies most people face are space marines now, and very few are not bringing primaris, the only classic MEQ you see regularly are devastators and scouts. Trukk boyz are terrible against scouts as you need to disembark in the middle of nowhere to charge and kill them, and then get back in the trukk the turn after, so the scouts delays them for three turns.
The intercessor is a basic gearcheck example. Any guy with marines will most like have one or two units protecting their more valuable stuff, there even have been top placements with people just bringing 60+ intercessors. All the other primaris units share their profile, so they will fail just as hard at kill helblasters as the fail at killing intercessors.
If an offensive unit can't deal with the basic infantry of the most popular army even when investing three times as many points, it just fails at its job and should never be taken in a TAC list.

I think the subtle question I'd ask is this: because having this transport gives you ablative wounds (makes the unit inside more resistant to small arms fire), prevents a single unit from killing both in 1 round of shooting (disembark rolls *shouldn't* kill you without a really unlucky roll), gives you something to screen units, tag units, etc. Is this useful enough in competitive play? ITC?

The thing is, the term "ablative wounds" describes adding cheap wounds to a unit or model that does the heavy lifting. For example, grot shields are ablative wounds for lootas, additional marines are ablative wounds for devastator squads with lascannons.
Trukks actually fulfill this role for tank bustas or flash gits and have even appeared on top tables.
This does not apply to trukk boyz, as they are not doing any lifting at all. In essence, the trukk is not the problem, mobs of 12 boyz are. Those currently have no purpose.

I could imagine a world of a 30 point trukk where you may just throw 10 grots inside to go after objectives. And maybe there, you'll find yourself upgrading to 10-12 boyz just so they can actually have a shot at killing something, as opposed to basically nothing.

Even with trukks at 30 points, bringing two units of gretchin would be superior putting one inside a trukk. The whole point of gretchin is filling out our 9 de facto mandatory slots for as little points as possible. There is zero reason to add a truck to a pure tax unit, and there is even less reason to bring a 100+ points tax unit if there is a 30 or 40 point unit available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
To get rid of the the need of disposing of 18+ CPs GW should re-write other units, like lootas and bustas which are way overcosted at 17ppm unless you invest 5-6 CPs per turn on them. But if you make them cheaper competitive players will change nothing, they'd just add a few more things on the table. Unfortunately (or luckily, if you like the mechanics) this edition of 40k is designed around buffing the units with auras, traits, klan rules, stratagems, etc... like it or not it's how 40k works now and if you can get 2x shooting (or even better with More Dakka) and similar buffs, competitive gaming will always go into the direction of maximizing the most powerful combos. If the army gets enough buffs to get rid of the need of using (abusing) those combos it would probably mean that the army has become broken.

In casual games playing with no gretchins and 9-10 CPs is already fine.


Great post. One thing about CP though - many armies can get away with less CP because they simply have units that can hold their own. When running DG, for example, I feel I have little reason to bring more than one battalion, since many of my choices work fine without or with little stratagem support.
Our battlewagons, buggies, walkers, koptas and bikes have little or situation support in the way of extra damage stratagems, so making those more powerful would shift away the focus from generating as many CP as possible to super-charge the output of one unt.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 12:11:01


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




If the only metric you care about is if Trukk Boyz are good enough to kill an entire intercessor squad, then they are useless. Nothing will change that, unless kill saws or Klaws get better ( they won’t ).

But if that’s your argument, boy squads are also useless. And people should stop fielding them. Because they also bounce off those units. Good luck even getting all your attacks even if you Da Jump; the basic attacks aren’t what’s killing these units. And auspex scan hard counters getting close anyway via our normal boy delivery method.

It’s my inclination as well given current costs; lists I design tend to get more fun if I field zero boys. I would even argue the "green label" boyz have now is probably downgraded on page 1. Or at the very least, it's 1-2 grades lower vs Marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 17:11:28


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Are you guys really just facing marines these days ? Play roster tournament prep games. One marine player for every 8 player team. Much better than solo stuff where everyone can just bring the new hotness and bury the fun in GW’s weird 2019 choices (make sm op again).

You still face optimized as sh.t army lists, but they is diversity among them, as each team can only give a codex to one player (imperium still rules though, and it won’t get you necrons, grey knights, etc.back on the tables. It ain’t perfect). We will see when the alt marines (DA, SW etc.) get their codex though, perhaps it will be all power armour even for team games.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/17 17:20:26


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Nebraska, USA

yeah it really is 90% marines now.
Most players that have multiple armies have a marine army and a lot of powergamers buy whatever is hot even if they never goto tournaments.

Since the marine dex dropped ive had 18 games, 3 of which were NOT against marines. Previously that would be flipped and i would be mostly facing eldar.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

9000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
4000pts Admech/Knights 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

Like I said, my metric for the viability of Trukk Boyz is based on whether other units can accomplish the same tasks more effectively. Storm Boyz are better at tying units into CC quickly, for example. It's the same reason Burna Boyz aren't viable: anything they can do another unit can do better (and cheaper). So, for Trukk Boyz to be a useful addition to your army, they would need to be competitively priced against the units we have that fill the same role.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
Like I said, my metric for the viability of Trukk Boyz is based on whether other units can accomplish the same tasks more effectively. Storm Boyz are better at tying units into CC quickly, for example. It's the same reason Burna Boyz aren't viable: anything they can do another unit can do better (and cheaper). So, for Trukk Boyz to be a useful addition to your army, they would need to be competitively priced against the units we have that fill the same role.


I don't think it's fair to compare a unit of Boyz in Trukks to Burna Boyz; one is arguably weaker, Burna boys are *literally* useless. They could get a 90% discount and I still wouldn't field them. I don't think that's true of Trukk Boyz.

If all you care about is tagging a particular unit (and not killing it), Stormboyz are probably better; although the jumping screen thing really depends on positioning (you can jump screens, but you still need to fit the models, and you also are probably not in range of your warboss for the advance + charge; if there is no screen to jump, stormboyz can have a bigger threat range because you can always string them back, without having to throw up your boss or wartrike).

I think I am just emphasizing the usefulness of actually fielding the trukk, which has been acknowledged. Trukks *are* useful in ways more than just killing stuff. If you find you need the payload to be stronger than 12 boyz (with whatever kit they have available), that's completely fair. I would probably not field Trukk Boyz as a CC unit, but as a shooty unit with 2 rokkits as Deathskullz.

But again, Stormboyz are probably also on the chopping block if all we care about is if they kill Primaris marines; they are *just as bad* as Boyz, at a higher price point. I'm also not sure tagging the marine infantry in the front will do much (UM can just leave combat and wreck you, for instance... Raven Guard can do something similar as well). If we care about more than kill power of Primaris Marines, we have a more interesting discussion to have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 19:11:20


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

The comparison was that, for their roles, you have more efficient options. Obviously Burna Boyz are worse than Trukk Boyz. But they, theoretically, have a role to perform in an army, one which is performed better by pretty much any other unit.

If Burna Boyz had a 90% decrease in price, you'd be a fool NOT to field them. Even if they do nothing by die, they'd be 1.2ppm. You could have 45 of them (the maximum possible) for less than the cost of 2 Gretchin MSUs. Hyperbole helps no one, friend.

If your view of a Trukk Boyz role is to be a highly mobile shooting unit, then you STILL have better options. You could spend 172 points for the Trukk and two Rokkit Launchaz, or you could spend 110 pts for a Scrapjet which will do the same job, but better. And for cheaper.

In a casual environment, you can field nearly anything (yes, even Burnas), but in a competitive environment, you have to choose the most efficient units you can. And, right now, anything Trukk Boyz can do, something else can do better.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:


If your view of a Trukk Boyz role is to be a highly mobile shooting unit, then you STILL have better options. You could spend 172 points for the Trukk and two Rokkit Launchaz, or you could spend 110 pts for a Scrapjet which will do the same job, but better. And for cheaper.


That's not exactly the right cost here.

Given I *have* to take 9 troops in a 2000 point list (CP baby), and I can swap a gretchin squad out, its more fair to say is 10 grots + scrapjet better (140 points) vs the trukk squad. And the boyz get objective secure and aren't totally useless like grots (kill 5 and they squad runs away, not hard). It's not exactly the same role, even if both can shoot.

I think we might have to agree to disagree here. In competitive play, to be honest, most of the units we are talking about are more or less garbage anyway. Maybe CA will change that.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

If you're using your Trukk Boyz to hold Objectives, they need to be disembarked to do so. At which point, why not just skip the 64 pt Trukk tax and Da Jump them there?

Like, what exactly do you consider the role of Trukk Boyz to be? Because it's shifted multiple times during this conversation. If it's now supposed to be "to hold Objectives", then I'd wager even Gretchin do that job better, simply because of how cheap they are. They might die in droves, but your opponent targetting a 30 pt unit with 100 to 200 pts of units to remove them from an Objective is, undeniably, better than the same 100 to 200 pts of units removing 94-100 pts of Boyz.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
If you're using your Trukk Boyz to hold Objectives, they need to be disembarked to do so. At which point, why not just skip the 64 pt Trukk tax and Da Jump them there?

Like, what exactly do you consider the role of Trukk Boyz to be? Because it's shifted multiple times during this conversation. If it's now supposed to be "to hold Objectives", then I'd wager even Gretchin do that job better, simply because of how cheap they are. They might die in droves, but your opponent targetting a 30 pt unit with 100 to 200 pts of units to remove them from an Objective is, undeniably, better than the same 100 to 200 pts of units removing 94-100 pts of Boyz.


I would use Trukks as a way to push into an objective area. They have way more firepower than a grot squad, Boyz are certainly tougher than grots, and have a non-garbage stat line. If enemies are using their anti-tank stuff on trukks, they aren't using it on other more vital targets. Probably the best way to use Trukks is target saturation. A single Trukk won't do you very good, much like a single battlewagon won't do very well (etc). They can threaten a large number of non-primaris units, and are only a threat to them if they are softened up.

Well, people *do* Da Jump small units around like grots, but you can only do it once a turn, so you probably want to do it on something more deadly (MANz, Tankbustas, Lootas), then either choice.

Wiping out 10 grots definitely does not require 100-200 points of fire. T2, 6+ save, and LD4? You can split fire and spend way less than that.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

Well, let's assume a 4+ BS, 2 shots per weapon, and S3, which is all pretty average and common. To take out 5 Gretchin, it would take an average of 10 of those weapons (2 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds, 0.55 Damage). But, as that's not a guaranteed wipe of the unit (it's only a guaranteed loss of 2 more from Morale), let's up this to where the Gretchin will be lost even if they pass Morale. That requires 7 dead models, so up to 14. If we assume these ranged models are relatively cheap at 6ppm, then your opponent has spent 84 points to remove 30 points of Gretchin from an Objective.

This same firepower directed at a 12 model Boy Blob would remove 3.88 models, on average (we'll round up to 4, for math simplicity), leaving you with 8 models. Morale check cause a loss of 1d6-4 more models, so (on average) you shouldn't lose anyone else.

In the end, the Trukk Boyz are still holding the Objective, but you lost 28 points of models in the process, to the Gretchin's 30. Slightly more efficient, I'll give you that. But it's important to remember that you spent 148 pts, minimum, for this, while Da Jumping Grots only cost me 92 pts

Alternatively, as Deathskullz, I already get Obsec with all Infantry, so I could Da Jump a unit of MANz onto that Objective, who will require way more firepower to remove. Or a unit of 12 Stormboyz can just move there (more reliably), which will cost (a minimum) 40 less points than the Trukk Boyz, because they don't require a Trukk for transport.

While I certainly think a mass of Trukkz could be useful and threatening, I disagree that Boyz are the best unit to place within them. Flash Gitz and Tankbustas are far better choices to put within them, as they're better able to make use of the Open-Topped rule. While 12 Boyz (with 10 Shootas and 2 Rokkits) are gonna deal 4 Wounds with the Shootas (against T3 and Sv6+) and 1 Wound with the Rokkits (against T8 and a 5++), the Gitz can deal 14 Wounds against the same Infantry (after accounting for the chance to shoot again, but not assuming the Infantry have more than 1 Wound) and the TBs will deal 7 Wounds against the same Armor. They certainly cost more, but as you mentioned earlier, just being cheap doesn't help if you can't do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, remember, if I'm only spending 30 pts on a unit of Grots, I have more points to spend on things like Gitz, Lootas, Tankbustas, etc. The +120 pt increase in cost for the Trukk and Boyz could be spent on a lot of other things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 20:38:52


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





tulun wrote:
If the only metric you care about is if Trukk Boyz are good enough to kill an entire intercessor squad, then they are useless. Nothing will change that, unless kill saws or Klaws get better ( they won’t ).

But if that’s your argument, boy squads are also useless. And people should stop fielding them. Because they also bounce off those units. Good luck even getting all your attacks even if you Da Jump; the basic attacks aren’t what’s killing these units. And auspex scan hard counters getting close anyway via our normal boy delivery method.

It’s my inclination as well given current costs; lists I design tend to get more fun if I field zero boys. I would even argue the "green label" boyz have now is probably downgraded on page 1. Or at the very least, it's 1-2 grades lower vs Marines.


As you are intentionally misrepresenting my argument here, I'm done discussing this.

Anything you could do with trukk boyz can be done better by another unit for less points, even if you include the 30 point gretchin tax to get CP anyways.

Go ahead, and try to find a single counter-example.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?

Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
Well, let's assume a 4+ BS, 2 shots per weapon, and S3, which is all pretty average and common. To take out 5 Gretchin, it would take an average of 10 of those weapons (2 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds, 0.55 Damage). But, as that's not a guaranteed wipe of the unit (it's only a guaranteed loss of 2 more from Morale), let's up this to where the Gretchin will be lost even if they pass Morale. That requires 7 dead models, so up to 14. If we assume these ranged models are relatively cheap at 6ppm, then your opponent has spent 84 points to remove 30 points of Gretchin from an Objective.

This same firepower directed at a 12 model Boy Blob would remove 3.88 models, on average (we'll round up to 4, for math simplicity), leaving you with 8 models. Morale check cause a loss of 1d6-4 more models, so (on average) you shouldn't lose anyone else.

In the end, the Trukk Boyz are still holding the Objective, but you lost 28 points of models in the process, to the Gretchin's 30. Slightly more efficient, I'll give you that. But it's important to remember that you spent 148 pts, minimum, for this, while Da Jumping Grots only cost me 92 pts

Alternatively, as Deathskullz, I already get Obsec with all Infantry, so I could Da Jump a unit of MANz onto that Objective, who will require way more firepower to remove. Or a unit of 12 Stormboyz can just move there (more reliably), which will cost (a minimum) 40 less points than the Trukk Boyz, because they don't require a Trukk for transport.

While I certainly think a mass of Trukkz could be useful and threatening, I disagree that Boyz are the best unit to place within them. Flash Gitz and Tankbustas are far better choices to put within them, as they're better able to make use of the Open-Topped rule. While 12 Boyz (with 10 Shootas and 2 Rokkits) are gonna deal 4 Wounds with the Shootas (against T3 and Sv6+) and 1 Wound with the Rokkits (against T8 and a 5++), the Gitz can deal 14 Wounds against the same Infantry (after accounting for the chance to shoot again, but not assuming the Infantry have more than 1 Wound) and the TBs will deal 7 Wounds against the same Armor. They certainly cost more, but as you mentioned earlier, just being cheap doesn't help if you can't do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, remember, if I'm only spending 30 pts on a unit of Grots, I have more points to spend on things like Gitz, Lootas, Tankbustas, etc. The +120 pt increase in cost for the Trukk and Boyz could be spent on a lot of other things.


Da Jump is a power we should use selectively, so I would be careful of adding in as a given to a strat like this, which is why a transport can be useful (you can use Da Jump on MANz, like you said, which is almost always going to be better). For the Stormboyz, it also matters if the shell will help the Boyz get to / hold the objective.

I agree with you: I think trukks are useful for Gitz and tankbustas, but probably not Lootas, as you can't DDD them inside. hitting only on 6's sucks.

Whether or not to spend anything more than bare minimum on troops is definitely the issue. I think with a trukk point cost reduction, you *may* find places where it could be useful. At current costs, I would probably just go with 10 grots, and use the points you save (upwards of 185 for a full boy squad) on much better stuff. This sort of wraps around to the original point of 4 ppm grots.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that 10 man boy squads are hard to get use of compared to the cheaper 10 grot squad, but a 10-12 man boy squad in trukk might be *close* to being useful here, with some point adjustments, because the trukk makes them less fragile and manuverable enough to maybe do something other than catch bullets.

Jidmah wrote:
As you are intentionally misrepresenting my argument here, I'm done discussing this.

Anything you could do with trukk boyz can be done better by another unit for less points, even if you include the 30 point gretchin tax to get CP anyways.

Go ahead, and try to find a single counter-example.


I'm not trying to misrepresent you here; you seem to acknowledge Trukks *give* utility, which is part of the thing I'm throwing out here. But it seemed to me you were focused solely on how good Trukk Boyz were at killing Primaris Marines. If this is incorrect, what exactly is your argument here? I don't disagree. Boyz suck at killing 2W power armour.
If you extrapolate that, then boy profiles in general suck against Marines, and probably should be shelved in all their forms (Stormboyz, 30 man blobs, etc).

I think we both understand the sum of a units usefulness is *not* just in what it can kill. And TAC lists might include units that are bad against 1 popular army, but good against another one.

I'm also not saying Trukk Boyz are currently good for their points; I am arguing that they should be made cheaper, which I think we also both agree on.

No disrespect here. But if you don't want to continue, that's fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 21:30:18


 
   
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I think the best "fix" for Trukkz would include allowing Embarked models within it to attacks units the Trukk is in CC with with ALL of their attacks for no CP cost. I'd also like to see an allowance for the Embarked unit to fire Overwatch, if the Trukk is charged.

Would that be enough to make them viable at their current cost? No idea. But it'd certainly be enough to make me consider fielding them.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




russellmoo wrote:
So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?

Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.


I think someone mentioned to me in my play group that the reason transports are so expensive almost universally in 8th was that whomever finished dropping their army first went first; hence, they added a tax to each transport to account for this.

As Flandarz noted, you can't do much interaction with them for the units inside outside of shooting. Auras don't work, you can't fight in them or overwatch inside, etc, etc. I don't think making them 15 makes them good for Trukk boyz, and their capacity is fine for a bunch of other units.

Their main use case is just the adding protective wounds for the softer units inside. Disembarking is also not *that* bad, especially as lots of units can take stuff like ammo runts. Gitz can loot them for a 3+ save, which is also pretty nice.
40-50 points might make the added protecting good enough to start seeing more play, which I think might go nicely along with buggy drops.

A fully mechanized (outside of grots, and artillery) force could make Orks far less weak to the mass bolter fire marines can field.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 21:47:24


 
   
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The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.

You could always use them to transport CC-centric units up the board, but even then you're effectively waiting until T2 or T3 to actually use them, whereas you could Da Jump them for a T1 charge.

In the end, the cost of the Transport (both in points and in options) rarely outweighs the benefit the additional movement and ablative Wounds grant you. Which is why you really only see Tankbustas and Flash Gitz being Embarked.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.


I think if 10 Shoota boyz w/ 2 Rokkits (8 points each instead of 12, at 86 total) + trukk was about total 130-135 points, it might be close. But yeah, exactly. If only we could charge out of trukks...

Well... I think it's sad to say, but Orks are *not* a CC army. As depressing as that sounds.

We are an army that can charge if it need to. Woo 2 attacks and WS 3+

Look at the units we love: Lootas (shooting), TBs (shooting), Mek Gunz (shooting), SAG/SSAG (shooting), Dakkajets (shooting), Flash Gitz (shooting). Most of our stratagems are used to buff our shooting.

Its mostly just some Boyz (which are falling out of favour due to Marines) and a Warboss which are really combat focused... but yeah. We shoot. If MANz become cheaper though, maybe we got somethin'.
   
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I say we want to be in CC because we're fragile, so we need to be able to lock big ranged threats into CC to protect ourselves. It's also where 80% of our units shine best. 2 attacks and 3+ looks a whole lot better than 2 attacks and a 5+, but we got a LOT of stuff that Buffs CC as well. Banner Nobs. Warbosses. Ghaz. Da Jump. Warpath. Fists of Gork. Ramming Speed. Get Stuck In. Etc.

The issue isn't that we have bad CC. We actually have GREAT CC. We run into problems with getting there, and also with over-killing units and being unable to wrap them up for ranged protection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which, incidentally, is why Goff isn't a popular Kultur to take. We need exploding 6s in CC less than we need, say, reroll 1s in Ranged, or a 6++ with various rerolls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 22:40:50


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I say we want to be in CC because we're fragile, so we need to be able to lock big ranged threats into CC to protect ourselves. It's also where 80% of our units shine best. 2 attacks and 3+ looks a whole lot better than 2 attacks and a 5+, but we got a LOT of stuff that Buffs CC as well. Banner Nobs. Warbosses. Ghaz. Da Jump. Warpath. Fists of Gork. Ramming Speed. Get Stuck In. Etc.

The issue isn't that we have bad CC. We actually have GREAT CC. We run into problems with getting there, and also with over-killing units and being unable to wrap them up for ranged protection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which, incidentally, is why Goff isn't a popular Kultur to take. We need exploding 6s in CC less than we need, say, reroll 1s in Ranged, or a 6++ with various rerolls.


Totally.

I also wish our aura stuff was priced aggressively. Waaagh banner Nob is so overcosted its such a joke.

Let's look at a new thing Iron Hands got!

"With the release of Faith and Fury, something awful has been created. The Ultimate Iron Hands Support Character.

The basic Techmarine costs 45 points at its cheapest, including wargear, although realistically you'll give him some weapons.

Now, here is where it gets disgusting.

You make him Master of The Forge for 1 CP, so he can now repair 3 Wounds instead of d3, and give him the Master of The Machine Warlord Trait. Then you use the Paragon of Iron Stratagem for an additional CP to give him the Adept of The Omnissiah Warlord Trait so he heals Vehicles for an additional Wound. Finally, you give him the Gorgon's Chain for additional staying power.

You now have a Character that gives all Vehicles within 6" +1 to hit, repairs 4-8 Wounds a Turn (Using Machine Empathy, and only on another Vehicle) and has a 2+/4++/6+++ Statline at -1 to Wound.

All for 2 CP and 45 Points"

   
Made in no
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Going on another subject.

I had a discussion with a SM player the other day. He claimed that eliminators in cover can get 1+ due the rule that gives them +2 when in cover.
I said that is impossible because MANZ cannot have 1+ thanks to loot it, so nobody can have it
We discussed it a while, arriving nowhere .
So I shot one unit with smashaguns and tripointed another one

Who is right ?

 
   
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Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.

In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.

So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 23:12:59


 
   
 
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