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So I gave in and decided to start a 2500pt Deathguard army. I currently have Typhus, 6 boxes of Plague Marines, some bikes, and a Heldrake. I don't plan on taking daemon allies til I see the next codex. I know Obliterators/Havocs should be the next purchase, but I'm having trouble getting the proportions of units/unit size/upgrades down. It seems that there are a few different ways to run an all CSM army, but which is better? Typhus with zombies? Typhus with Terminator escort? Biker lord with 1 squad of bikes or 2? It seems that Plague Marines should be in 7 man units with 2 specials, Power axe, combi weapon and Melta bombs, but to use rhinos or not? I could really use some tactical help too. Thanks guys.

I have been playing a lot with a Typhus list recently. Typhus is a really resilient charecter and a monster in close combat. He has honestly yet to lose in close combat before yet. However, he is so expensive you need to use zombies oryour army will be too small. Also, if you use him, then only have one HQ, because he is that expensive. Go cheap in other things.

The best way to use him so that you don't waste the points on him, is to put him in a squad on terminators, and deep strike them in. Practise with deep strike positioning, and just accept that dice rolls sometimes need to be there when you deep strike in. He also has one big advantage over Abaddon. He has 2 nurgle spells, and more than half the time, he will get plague wind. That spell is the ultimate best spell in the nurgle spell list. I literally cast almost nothing else if I have that.

He deep strike in with his terminator retinue , give his terminator bodyguard combi plama guns. The minute that unit hits the table, if they are within 12 inches of a juicy target, then its rapid fired plasma guns plus Typhus cast plague wind into the unit. Even Storm sheild termis will eat a big dent from that. Be daring with him, if you have 2 soft targets nearby in the next turn, consider splitting Typhus from the termis and now you have 2 deadly threats. Typhus, all by himself, can take out entire units because he has the destroyer hive, and since he has 4 wounds, T5, FNP, he doesn't die easily even alone unless people are bring Str 10 stuff.

Zombies are reslilient but slow. So, best is to keep them in your table half to sit on your objectives. Use your terminator deep strikes to kill off his back line and contest his objectives. You can have up to 3 termi squads (3 elite slots). That plus 1 or 2 helldrakes is a lot of firepower that can be brought to bear from turn 2 onwards without havng to footslog across the table.

Your heavy support can be whatever you want. But I go for havoks myself because they are cheap, and they can still be a threat even if one or two models die. Unlike vehicles, who lose all effectiveness once they are wrecked. Going with infantry type heavy support also means that your whole army has zero vehicles, which then negates people who bring in stuff against vehicles. Obliterators is another option (some would say they are the better option). They are not cheap though, so you will have to balance with what you want to hit into the rest of the army.

The thing is, if you go with expensive stuff like Typhus, helldrake, oblits, and then add in some termis. Something has to give somewhere, so in this case, it will probably be troops. You will just have lots of cheap zombies and no plague marines, because unless you want a super low model count army, you just won't have the points to fit in so much expensive stuff. Its for this reason why I keep my termis cheap as well. Add too much fancy stuff like marks, power fists, etc and you just won't have enough points to go around.

Thanks for the info. I'm trying to find a balance of cultists and Plague Marines. I'm also wondering about Heldrakes vs Bikes. With the new FAQ I want to run 2 Heldrakes, but is one unit of Nurgle bikes worth running?

The bikes will be the first thing to be focused down and killed (typically). So unless you run a big enough unit, be prepared for them to not do much. The thing is, a Typhus list that I said is very resilient, and doesn't give up first blood easily. The only easy thing for the opponent to shoot at, will be your bikes.

Even with toughness 6, they are armor 3+. Lascannons, missile launchers will all still one shot a model.

I tried out my Typhus list with bikes many times. I kept on giving up first blood (even with them turbo boosted on turn 1) that I just gave up using them entirely. The thing is, they are the only unit charging up the board on turn 1.

Your plague marines will be foot slogging up, which will make them slow and unable to catch up with our bikes. Put your plague marines in a Rhino, and they can only assault by turn 3, plus your Rhino again gives up an easy first blood. Having your ride blown up, and you have to cross DT out of a crater actually slows your plague marines down.

That's why I suggested termi squads. Those are the most reliable way to instantly apply pressure on a part of the battlefield you want without having to cross the entire board and brave the shooting, and termi with combi plasma give as good as they get the turn they come down.

Deep strike in 3 squads of 5 termis, with Typhus in one of them, and your opponent will have so much to worry about he wíll hardly bother with you much. That will wipe out any kind of backfield he has unless he literally packs his entire army in his backline.

His troops which are halfway across the table will have to decide if they double back to defend, or continue forward. If they continue forward, they can have fun fighting blobs of zombies for the rest of the game. Double back, and they will be fighting only for their own objectives and you are in a no lose situation.

You will be surprised how tough zombies are. I have had mine tie up a squad of deathwing knights for an entire game. (After some shooting of course).

Have some plague marines, but keep the squads small (5 man) and nimble with nothing but 2 plasma guns. They are there to shore up any potential weak spots in your line. If you meet up with determined opposition, don't just rely on one. Gang up on it with 2 squads. That's 4 rapid fire plasma shots, plus bolter shots plus overwatch later.

Your plague marines and zombies are there to hold the line and hold your objectives and to not die. (Both are fearless). Its the deep striking termi squads with Typhus, and your helldrake which are going to win it for you as they clean up his backfield.

You can see why I am not sure about bikes in such an army. I have 12 bikes which I spent time painting up nicely, but I just couldn't justify putting them in the army. They just don't synergise well with a Typhus army.

I'll test this weekend a cheap biker lord with the brand in a biker unit. T6 is hard to deal with by most armies and the brand seems to be a very good weapon for just riding around and flaming things up.

Typhus is a very good lord, but as with all the TDA guys, hard to deliver properly in CC. A tip I gathered here is putting him in a PM squad with 2 plasma guns : hard to ignore in the shooting phase, hard to charge because of Typhus. That seems to be a very good middle field control unit.


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On the PM squads, I tend to stay simple : 2 specials (meltaguns almost all the time) and MB on the champ. When I feel happy, havoc launcher on the rhino and that's all. Those plague knives are so good I tend to stick to them instead of using anything else.

You could try something like :
- Typhus
- Cheap nurgle biker lord/sorcerer with brand
- 3/4 squads of PM as your troops, with one unit either in a LR or on foot to be able to accomodate Typhus
- Biker squad to play with the lord
- Helldrake

That should put you up to 1500 or so, with most of your army resilient and scoring.

Bikes are good, but you need to run something with them. so they are not the only thing charging across the board. Since I run Daemon allies I deep strike a Great Unclean One first turn in the area I plan for the bikes. Also if they have a MoN lord with the squad his blight grenades will carry over to the full squad. Usually I don't even worry about shooting with them the first turn and just turboboost as close the opponent as I can. (if you are within 8 inches you will get a 3+ jink save.

So from what I'm hearing you can do nurgle bikes but it seems that its either going to be a completely different list than a Typhus list or its going to be really tight with at least 2 units of bikes and PM in rhinos.

I play things a little differently than the others have posted, but perhaps I can offer a different perspective.
I've played Deathguard since 3rd. I love them.
In 6th, pure Deathguard got better. Significantly better, IMO. Something to remember: you are T5 and can be T5 - T6 across your whole army. Zombies take this away if you go Typhus/Zombies. Another thing: you can make a vehicleless army, and make it good.
My 1850 looks like a variation of:

Lord on a bike/nurgle/burning brand
Bikes escort or Spawn escort
5 squads of plague marines (3 with double plasma, 2 with double melta) (these can be 5man or 7man, I never upgrade the champion)
havocs with nurgle, 7 dudes, autocannons, votlw
havocs with nurgle, 7 dudes, lascannons, votlw
Oblits x 2 or 3, nurgle, vets

If I'm feeling squirrley, I might get a Heldrake with any left over points, or might get more bikes if I want to stay sans vehicles.
I've only really taken one bad loss with a similar list where I got the LONG way deployment with my opponent getting 2 obj on his side while I had 1. The lack of troop mobility crushed me. Other that that one game, I usually find that my opponent can't handle so much high-toughness guys.

I'd actually like to hear you reasons for not upgrading your champ. I understand it gets expensive, but are there other reasons?

Yep. I love the Plague Knife. I look at my Plague Marines as T5, 3+, 5++ double special/bolter boats that score objectives, shoot stuff and can hold their own in combat. The Champ having poisoned attacks for free is okay in my book. In 5th, I was super aggressive with my Plague Marines and loved getting in combat with them. Combat is not the name of the game in 6th, so I say, I'm good enough to be dangerous, but not good enough to be charging everything that breathes.
Also, other than fluff, I see no reason to run 7-deep now as opposed to 5.

I think taking the special weapons on champs is a gamble they have to challenge and hit at I 3 or lower with PF and such, so the chance to get a swing is low and the upgrades just cost to much.

Might want to take a look at my list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/503323.page

also some usefull feedback there. Iám also trying to fit in bikers/spawn and still not sure about rhino's or not.

I like the army tho really fun to play.

I see your point on power weapons on champs. I got a lil swept up by the "Must Challenge" rule. I want to like cultists, but I may only use 1 large unit for backfield objective camping. I kinda like the idea of going without vehicles except for Heldrakes. I'm kinda leaning towards taking terminators to deep striking and shooting up enemy armor. I know this tactic uses a mix of combi weapons, but what about cc weapons and unit size? The tactic of foot slogging is appealing since many armies will be rushing to me. Is it a good idea to try out Huron to infiltrate units upfield?

Funny you mention Huron. Iám loving this HQ his abilities and cost is amasing. My 2000 point list contains him.

Again you migth want to look at: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/498742.page

Good feedback and i love the list.

I did check out your list. Very interesting. As far as bikes go they compete with the Heldrake. 1 Heldrake is ok, but 2 is better. Although 1 unit of bikes, I woukd say is a no no, unless you have rhinos and/or spawn. I was thinking of infiltrating to get my units into position to apply early pressure on the opponent while wait for Typhus and friends to deep strike.

How many points do you want to play?

You can't decide Obliterators or havocs. Most people like havocs 4x autocannon to counter enemy flyers and you can give them MoN to make them even more resilient. I like to play Obliterators a lot i like the versatility and with some luck on the Huron Blackheart infiltrate roll you can choose to infiltrate them so you can place them after your opponent deployed wich is great. You can hurt weak spots or get them in a good cover position. (ofc this can also be done with havocs,). I just like the Obliterator models, fluf and enemies really fear them wich makes the rest of my army that much saver. My I idea is to give the enemy a lot of high priority targets so they feel a lot of pressure and when people are under pressure that's when they start to make mistakes. All they see is an infiltrated assault unit spawn/bikes/rhino's rushing towards their flank(in your case 2 flyers) and also heavy support in the back or midfield cover. This makes it really hard to decide what to shoot first and makes my battles a lot of fun

As far as bikes go they compete with the Heldrake. 1 Heldrake is ok, but 2 is better. Although 1 unit of bikes, I woukd say is a no no, unless you have rhinos and/or spawn.

This is totally right. That's why I run a group of 4-5 spawn behind my bikes to give them more impact/support. If you go with Helldrakes I would run 2 if possible but not more or you lose to much ground control.

I plan on starting with a 2500pts, and I can scale down as needed or add more. I like Obliterators for two reasons. Fluff, and the models are easier than converting Autocannons.

Ok so I've come up with 2 different lists.

List 1

Fortifications:1
Aegis Defense Line 100pts
Quad Gun

HQ:1
Typhus 230pts

Troops: 6
7 Plague Marines 198pts
2 Plasma Gun

7 Plague Marines 198pts
2 Plasma Gun

7 Plague Marines 198pts
2 Plasma Gun

7 Plague Marines188pts
2 Melta Gun

7 Plague Marines188pts
2 Melta Gun

35 Cultists 150pts

Fast Attack: 2
Heldrake 170pts

Heldrake 170pts

Heavy Support: 3
Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Elites: 2

5 Terminators 212pts(Typhus escort)
MoN
5 Combi Melta/Plasma

4 Terminators 146pts
4 Combi Melta/Plasma

Total 2493pts

List 2

Fortifications: 1
Aegis Defense Line 100pts
Quad Gun

HQ: 2
Lord 155pts
MoN
Bike
Burning Brand
Blight Grenades
Votlw
Aura of Dark Glory

Sorcerer 170pts
MoN
Bike
Blight Grenades
Mastery lvl 3
Votlw
Aura of Dark Glory

Troops: 6
5 Plague Marines 185pts
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

5 Plague Marines 185pts
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

5 Plague Marines 185pts
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

5 Plague Marines 175pts
2 Melta Guns
Rhino

5 Plague Marines 175pts
2 Melta Guns
Rhino

34 Cultists 146

Heavy Support:3
Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Havocs 115pts
4 Autocannons

Fast Attack: 3
Heldrake 170pts

8 Bikes 253
MoN
2 Melta Guns
Power Weapon on the Champ

8 Bikes 253
MoN
2 Melta Guns
Power Weapon on the Champ

Total 2497pts

Both lists are really solid. I would go with Typhus but that is jsut because i really love that character.

The bike list will probably perform better on the table. But the zombies always make me laugh.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference

I agree that the bike list would probably work a little better. With the models I have I'm closer to building the Typhus list. I might tweak it a little to try and get Huron in then play that while I work on getting the models for the second list.

I've been fine tuning a Typhus list that I've had great success with. It's played against Space Wolves, Eldar and Dark Angles so far.

Typhus

Bike mounted sorcerer or lord with blackmace, blight grenades

1 or 2 Plague Zombie squads of 15-20
Plague Marines 6-7, 2x Plasma, Melta bombs
Plague Marines 6-7, 2x Plasma, Melta bombs
Plague Marines 6-7, 2x Melta, Melta bombs

Obliterators 3, MoN
Havoc Squad 4x Autocannon, MoN

Bike Squad 3-4, MoN, 2x Plasma
Chaos Spawn 3-5, MoN
Heldrake

I put the bike mounted HQ with the chaos spawn. I generally put Typhus with zombies, move him midfield to an objective, then leave the zombies to hold it and move Typhus in with a squad of plague marines. More than likely the bikes will get wiped out, but I'm ok with that. The point of the chaos spawn and bikes for me is to put early pressure on the opponent into doing something he doesn't want to do, or wasn't planning on doing. Force him to react to my spawn/bikes, leaving my marines to move into position to take objectives.

So far I'm not convinced the points to make the sorcerer is worth the points, and am prefering the lord. This may have something to do with how frequently I play eldar though.

The mobility of the deep strike, heldrake, bikes and chaos spawn combined with the range of the autocannons, survivability of the plague marines, and the decent shooting and hth that the plague marines bring results in a fairly versatile army.

I find that this list frequently results in a game that looks like the opponent has the upper hand early game, but the tables turn drastically in turns 3-4.

As always, your milage may vary.

@t Kurziel no rhino's? and the plague marines walk behind the zombies?

No, I don't use any rhinos. I've considered it, I generally don't care for tanks or transports. That's just purely a personal style thing, no tactic/rules reason to back it up.

I generally deploy with zombies and melta squad in middle of deployment and the plasma marines on either flank. I'll move the marines up, but I don't have a problem holding a squad in place for a turn or two if I can't move them to good cover right away either. The mobility of the bikes and spawn (which are usually on either flank) followed by heldrake and obliterators on turn 2 or 3 usually lets me funnel the opponent into the middle of the board toward typhus/zombies and the melta squad.

@kurziel have you had any problems with objective claiming since all your stuff is on foot?

I did the the first couple games that I started using this list. I didn't have the heldrake or the chaos spawn during those games either though. I rarely have any problems taking objectives now. The last few games I ended up with the zombies sitting on one mid board and both plasma squads sitting on one on either flank.

First few games with Typhus I took minimum 5 man squads of plague marines. I've found 6 or 7 man squads to work much better for me. Can lose a man or two and still have sufficient firepower left to cause some damage.

The heldrake, bikes, obliterators, and chaos spawn all present high threat, and more imminent, targets to the opponent. All of those are very durable as well. That draws the majority of the fire away from the marines, allowing them to move up relatively freely.

From what I've gathered Plague Marines in a rhino are 5 man squads, without the rhino you take 7. I was worried about not being able to make it across the table in time to take/contest enemy objectives with foot slogging Plague Marines.

I've been playing around with the idea of a typhus/ Huron list where you infiltraite lots of zombies to tie up ur opponent