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Why are they battle brothers? I thought the fallen were rejected by the "pure" Eldar. Would they not be like allies of convenience at most? What is the fluff behind the battle-brother relationship other than "They are the same species, nitwit"?

Probably because they're actually brothers. Just cause your brother is a little unstable you don't let random strangers beat him up without stepping in.

Eldar/Dark Eldar makes more sense than some of the other combo's on that chart.

The DE and the CWE still have more in common with each other than with any other race.

DE have shown up to fight alongside CWE in the fluff before, rather than shooting them in the back while they were busy.

Some Eldar units are drawn from both, like Harlequins and Corsairs, so i suppose it fits reasonably well.

The Allies table is fethed up beyond belief anyway, so i'd not strain the brain trying to understand it in the context of the 'canon'

Otherwise you would have it that all IOM forces were battle brothers, and everyone else could take a flying leap


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a reply i posted to a similar question, a bit back:

Dark Eldar and Eldar aren't really best buddies. The allies chart is so far gone that you'd need a telescope to spot it.

Eldar and Dark Eldar are both still ELDAR. They will band together against common foes, and have done in the fluff.

Thing of them like this: Craftworld Eldar are like the successful businessman. Clean cut, efficient, generallly a nice guy, if you don't mind him being an elitist snob with racism issues.

Dark Eldar are like that guys multiple-rapist, drug using, psychotic pimp brother.

The businessman doesn't acknowledge that he has a brother, most of the time, but when someone else tried to muscle in on the businessman, he is sure glad to see his dubious brother show up to beat the scrud out of the interloper.

Of course sometimes the dubious brother just stands at the end of the alley, laughing. Or is the one mugging the businessman himself for drug money..

It's a family thing.

I against my brother, my brother and I against our cousins, my family against the stranger. - Bedouin proverb.

nuff said.

There was a tale of an Imperial governor who slaughtered an Eldar "diplomatic" party and made jewellery of their waystones (it was written from the point of view of a historical incident)

The eldar, when they attacked that world for this insult, made a point of capturing that particular mon-keigh alive.

He was then given to the rangers, who passed him on to the Harlequins (who travel wherever they wish within the webway - craftworld/exodite/DE realms) with instructions to "gift" him to their dark kin - and they were told why.

The DE are still making him pay for his slight.

Regardless of how the DE and CE view each other, they are both STILL Eldar, and all other races are still mon-keigh. A slight against one, is still a slight against both.

Well, that makes everything a lot clearer for me. I never thought of it in the sense of brothers that do not get along well or the Businessman and his gang-bum brother. Thank yall quite a lot, Dakka.

Either way you look at it they are still Eldar, and with that comes the view that other races are lesser.

 chromedog wrote:
There was a tale of an Imperial governor who slaughtered an Eldar "diplomatic" party and made jewellery of their waystones (it was written from the point of view of a historical incident)

The eldar, when they attacked that world for this insult, made a point of capturing that particular mon-keigh alive.

He was then given to the rangers, who passed him on to the Harlequins (who travel wherever they wish within the webway - craftworld/exodite/DE realms) with instructions to "gift" him to their dark kin - and they were told why.

The DE are still making him pay for his slight.

Regardless of how the DE and CE view each other, they are both STILL Eldar, and all other races are still mon-keigh. A slight against one, is still a slight against both.

BL authors are full of gak. I wonder if half of them have even read the damn codices for the races they chose to include in their "tales".

Firstly. I would like to cite the DE codex, specifically their armory.

To an Eldar, the single most important thing in their entire life is discipline. It's how they keep from "falling" like their ancestors did. They gave into their desires and had pleasure cults and did whatever struck their fancy (Who else does that... oh right, the DE). The DE represent everything BAD about the Eldar. How far they can fall essentially. I won't go into detail about the Soulstones and how they work because frankly if you're in this discussion and you don't already know that, than you are wasting your own time. But I bring that up because one of the WEAPONS the DE use is basically a shattered soul stone with the soul sort of stuck half way. Since the DE are too fething cowardly to use their own psychic abilities, they weaponize the Eldar.

Not unlike desecrating a corpse ... something "Brothers" do all the time right?

They've NEVER gotten along. EVER. the codices have ALL stated that. Any one single example you can pull out of a gakky BL book is an exception to a rule, not the rule itself. The only party that looks equally at both sides are the harlequins, which (if you actually read the codices) are not particularly well liked by either side.

Mind you, I play Eldar as one of my 3 main armies, and my close pals IRL plays DE . We get along fine but both of us read that allies chart were immediately like "WTF"...

 En Excelsis wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
There was a tale of an Imperial governor who slaughtered an Eldar "diplomatic" party and made jewellery of their waystones (it was written from the point of view of a historical incident)

The eldar, when they attacked that world for this insult, made a point of capturing that particular mon-keigh alive.

He was then given to the rangers, who passed him on to the Harlequins (who travel wherever they wish within the webway - craftworld/exodite/DE realms) with instructions to "gift" him to their dark kin - and they were told why.

The DE are still making him pay for his slight.

Regardless of how the DE and CE view each other, they are both STILL Eldar, and all other races are still mon-keigh. A slight against one, is still a slight against both.

BL authors are full of gak. I wonder if half of them have even read the damn codices for the races they chose to include in their "tales".

Firstly. I would like to cite the DE codex, specifically their armory.

To an Eldar, the single most important thing in their entire life is discipline. It's how they keep from "falling" like their ancestors did. They gave into their desires and had pleasure cults and did whatever struck their fancy (Who else does that... oh right, the DE). The DE represent everything BAD about the Eldar. How far they can fall essentially. I won't go into detail about the Soulstones and how they work because frankly if you're in this discussion and you don't already know that, than you are wasting your own time. But I bring that up because one of the WEAPONS the DE use is basically a shattered soul stone with the soul sort of stuck half way. Since the DE are too fething cowardly to use their own psychic abilities, they weaponize the Eldar.

Not unlike desecrating a corpse ... something "Brothers" do all the time right?

They've NEVER gotten along. EVER. the codices have ALL stated that. Any one single example you can pull out of a gakky BL book is an exception to a rule, not the rule itself. The only party that looks equally at both sides are the harlequins, which (if you actually read the codices) are not particularly well liked by either side.

Mind you, I play Eldar as one of my 3 main armies, and my close pals IRL plays DE . We get along fine but both of us read that allies chart were immediately like "WTF"...

Where does it state that the brief background material in a codex supersedes that written in a BL novel, vetted before it's released or that background doesn't evolve? I'd suggest asking Mr Andy Chambers about it.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Where does it state that the brief background material in a codex supersedes that written in a BL novel, vetted before it's released or that background doesn't evolve? I'd suggest asking Mr Andy Chambers about it.

I don't recall stating or implying that the BL books do or do not supersede the material in the codex. If my statement came of that way it was unintentional.

I also have no problem admitting that my entire last post was a QQ rage post. I like the story, I enjoy(ed) it and it looses a little something every time some BL author re-writes some new piece of gak. It is official that the BL books are garbage and full of nothing but contradictions to other official material? no... but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will back up my argument about the material in the codex that (IMO) paints a pretty vivid picture of two races that really don't et along at all (seriously... look up that weapon).

Then some jackass writes a book with a character who used to be a "bad guy" but magically gets along with the "good guys". And suddenly they are freakin' Battle Brothers on the Allies chart? How does that make any sense

There is a specific reference to Dark Eldar fighting alongside CWE in the DE Codex....something about being amused by their attempts at necromancy. So im not seeing how this is a BL author invented issue. Its in Codex Dark Eldar, which is grounds enough for me.

As well a CWE/DE army could represent a Corsair/Exile Eldar force.
I was honestly less concerned about DE/CWE battle brothers than CEW/Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because Incubi really hate Craftworlders doesn't mean that all Dark Eldar would abstain from working with them.

 En Excelsis wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Where does it state that the brief background material in a codex supersedes that written in a BL novel, vetted before it's released or that background doesn't evolve? I'd suggest asking Mr Andy Chambers about it.

I don't recall stating or implying that the BL books do or do not supersede the material in the codex. If my statement came of that way it was unintentional.

I also have no problem admitting that my entire last post was a QQ rage post. I like the story, I enjoy(ed) it and it looses a little something every time some BL author re-writes some new piece of gak. It is official that the BL books are garbage and full of nothing but contradictions to other official material? no... but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

I will back up my argument about the material in the codex that (IMO) paints a pretty vivid picture of two races that really don't et along at all (seriously... look up that weapon).

Then some jackass writes a book with a character who used to be a "bad guy" but magically gets along with the "good guys". And suddenly they are freakin' Battle Brothers on the Allies chart? How does that make any sense

I'm aware of the weapon and own both the codices. I know dark eldar will battle and kill eldar and eldar will battle and kill their dark kin. The method of hunting and fighting craftworld aspect warriors to achieve it isn't mentioned and I could well see it being ritualized and 'understood' among the peoples, it's been whispered that the founder of the incubi was the first and fallen Striking Scorpion. What's been said here is that whilst all that takes place, they are very likely to take a dim view of 'lesser' creatures killing their kind. Cultural differences are suddenly rendered trivial when another species is killing your species, in the eldar's case, I think you're making the mistake of perhaps blurring individual conflict vs species cooperation. The Eldar utterly dislike the Dark Kin indulging in the savage and disgusting ways of the fall, the Dark Kin sneer at the pious martyrdom of the Craftworld Eldar, but like I said previously, this is a very long lived species, some of these folks went to school together.

I can well see and understand why they would cooperate with each other, and the alliance of the two kins is also stated clearly in the same codex, in the timeline.

Also, please have a care about what you say about the BL authors, I find your criticism of these guys, some of whom I know IRL, to be in poor taste and it's also utterly untrue, you cannot claim 'this background is dire because it doesn't fit the way I read the codex background' when codex background like the hyperbolic rollercoasters of Grey Knights and Blood Angels backgrounds exist. GW's design team have admitted on several occasions that the codices background and stories are written with a strong favorable slant and bias.

And it all makes fine sense to me, especially compared to the absolutely dreadful allies option of marines with tau... which makes no bloody sense at all, unless Jervis is a closet 'Fire Warriors' computer game fan...

IIRC, CWE can step off the Path and go be Exodites, or go to Commoragh and be Dark Eldar rape-pirates and then get it out of their system and go back to being CWE a few centuries later. These are not separate species, simply differing philosophies of the same species. When you have a sentient fungus you've hated for 60 million years on one side, some metal space-zombies you've also hated for 60 million years on another side, and a third side that's got some bloodthirsty ignorant apes beating their chests and picking lice off one another... your backwards cousin over there that likes to dress like a fancyboy isn't looking too bad as backup in a fight.

The DE and Craftworld eldar arn't enemies. Far from it.

They simply view each other as fellow survivors of the fall that have opposite ways of avoiding She who Thirsts. There is mobility between the two societies too.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Also, please have a care about what you say about the BL authors, I find your criticism of these guys, some of whom I know IRL, to be in poor taste and it's also utterly untrue, you cannot claim 'this background is dire because it doesn't fit the way I read the codex background' when codex background like the hyperbolic rollercoasters of Grey Knights and Blood Angels backgrounds exist. GW's design team have admitted on several occasions that the codices background and stories are written with a strong favorable slant and bias.

And it all makes fine sense to me, especially compared to the absolutely dreadful allies option of marines with tau... which makes no bloody sense at all, unless Jervis is a closet 'Fire Warriors' computer game fan...

My criticism of those authors is exactly that. Criticism. They are authors after all and having had to submit their work to (one would hope) some form of audit before publishing them, they should be more than accustomed to criticism.

My attacks on their material are not attacks on their person as I (unlike you apparently) do NOT know them IRL. And even if I did, knowing someone who wrote something I dislike, does not suddenly make me like it any more. They may well be decent chaps IRL, and if we ever share drinks at a bar I'd probably be more than happy to throw a few back them them, but I'd tell them to their face that I think their books are gak. It's my opinion, and honesty isn't the same as suger-caoting the truth just because "you know someone IRL".

If your opinion differs from mine, which is clearly does, than kudos. read their books. Enjoy them. But do not tell me not to have a different opinion.

What you say is true, and the codices are written with a certain intentional slant or bias by which players become immersed in the army of their choosing. but to write that off as being second to some other, later bit of writing just because it is newer, is essentially like saying the codices have no truth to them at all...

If I find the Orks appealing because the book says they have green skin, and then some other writes a book about all Orks really have purple skin and green Orks are just a rare offshoot that was caused by a defect... they have essentially ruined the appeal of the army for me as a player. On a smaller scale, this is what is happening, and has been happening, every time BL material is published.

Your still missing the fact that Codex Dark Eldar (authored by the same man who wrote Codex Eldar) specifically mentions Eldar and Dark Eldar working together. You seem hung up on the whole Bloodstone/Incubi issue, while you are ignoring other examples within the same book.

Eldar are disciplined because they have a very strong will, but many eldar follow the path of the Outcast or the Exodite, or even become Corsairs, before returning to the the other Paths of life.
I agree that the Craftworlds and the Dark Kin have philosophical differences, but it has never appeared to me that they are as inimical to one and other as you seem to view them.

(on the note about BL)
We really dont need to have the GW sanctioned 'there is no cannon' discussion again do we.
Yes BL authors portray a differing worldview of the 40k universe than Codexes, or previous material....but that is irrelevant to the allies matrix. Rules developers wrote the allies matrix, the same rules developers who have Dark Eldar and Eldar working together in a Codex, so clearly the people who vet these things at GW HQ seem to think that DE and CWE can work together sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:
@ En Excelsis:
Calling the author a "jerk" or "jackass" is not literary criticism.
Im fairly certain that professional editor ever sent work back saying "this cant be published because your a jackass"...its illogical. The quality (or in this case perceived value) of someone's work is not a cause for attacks on their person. Attack their work all you want though.
MGS was asking you to direct your objections to the works themselves, instead of badmouthing people who you don't even know.

... that editor would deserve to be horsewhipped for misusing "your" where the contraction "you're" is obviously appropriate.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
Your still missing the fact that Codex Dark Eldar (authored by the same man who wrote Codex Eldar) specifically mentions Eldar and Dark Eldar working together. You seem hung up on the whole Bloodstone/Incubi issue, while you are ignoring other examples within the same book.

Eldar are disciplined because they have a very strong will, but many eldar follow the path of the Outcast or the Exodite, or even become Corsairs, before returning to the the other Paths of life.
I agree that the Craftworlds and the Dark Kin have philosophical differences, but it has never appeared to me that they are as inimical to one and other as you seem to view them.

(on the note about BL)
We really dont need to have the GW sanctioned 'there is no cannon' discussion again do we.
Yes BL authors portray a differing worldview of the 40k universe than Codexes, or previous material....but that is irrelevant to the allies matrix. Rules developers wrote the allies matrix, the same rules developers who have Dark Eldar and Eldar working together in a Codex, so clearly the people who vet these things at GW HQ seem to think that DE and CWE can work together sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:
@ En Excelsis:
Calling the author a "jerk" or "jackass" is not literary criticism.
Im fairly certain that professional editor ever sent work back saying "this cant be published because your a jackass"...its illogical. The quality (or in this case perceived value) of someone's work is not a cause for attacks on their person. Attack their work all you want though.
MGS was asking you to direct your objections to the works themselves, instead of badmouthing people who you don't even know.

I am not an editor and thusly my opinions as stated are not something the authors are likely to consider. Which is fine. My ranting here and stating that I don't like their work, or even if the thought the font the book was printed in was silly, it's an opinion and one which I am entitled to. I don't feel the need to take it further than that.

As it pertains to the rest... you are right. I am "hung up" on the Bloodstone issue. And while I am not ignoring other segments of the codex, I am forming my opinion with full knowledge of them.

I don't envy the writers of the codex one bit; they have a difficult job, which inevitably leads to mistakes. They are charged with taking a VAST amount of information about a game that has existed for decades, keeping up with the lore, and condensing that information into a format that isn't 40,000 pages long. Then, they must find a way to translate a world of imaginary supermen battling monstrous aliens into a set of rules based on a few dice and measuring tape. Trust me... they have a lot on their plate.

For these reasons, I don't besmirch the codex writers ('cept maybe Mat Ward) for their work. It's no wonder they write in contradictions. I think it's natural that some mistakes make into the printed work, nothing is perfect after all. Or hell, maybe I am wrong and the writers are so Goddamn awesome that write in insanely complicated contradictions into their own work just to have a laugh when they read forum posts like this one.

But no mater why the contradictions are there... by intent or accident. They are there.

As a writer I may want to create a character who the viewers will think it altruistic and noble... so I would probably write his story in such a way to illustrate that. Perhaps tell you that he dives in front of speeding cars to rescue small puppies from a squishy demise. But if that's my intent I would be a fool to write into that same story that he sometimes goes off on murderous escapades and brutally rapes his sisters while gaking on his mother's corpse. That would probably not make him look so altruistic and noble now would it?

So why, on one hand would the others create something that the Dark Eldar use, which is a profane offence to the average CWE, and then just (following the analogy of brothers or cousins) show up a Christmas or some family reunion like it didn't happen? It's not something that can be overlooked or ignored. This isn't something like an accident. The DE are not children who make silly mistakes that the Eldar look down their noses at. They are actively and deliberately offending the Eldar in everything they do. Perhaps I just have a different family background than you guys, but if that was the behavior of my "cousins" or "brothers" I would personally not just have them over for family time when it was convenient.

This is grimdark... this is 40k.

Remember the rules a few years back when Marines and Chaos would ALWAYS attack each other, even if a greater threat was present? Such was their hatred that they would rather die fighting each other than live, even for a moment, as allies.

Why is that not the case for the Eldar?

And before the IoM hate posts come rolling in I'll head them off by saying that I am not trying to imply that every race should behave like humans. But remember that they are all part of the same picture... if 40k is to be Grimdark at all... you can't have shiny happy space elves frolicking about forgiving all the trespasses done to them. More specifically, the codices state (and to my knowledge have not be retconned) that the Eldar are race given to MORE intense feelings than mankind... their hate would be one hundred fold that of the IoM and Chaos...

Dark Eldar will enslave their own kind, but they still view other Eldar at a higher level then the lesser races. Both also have a common enemy: Slaanesh.

"Battle Brothers" is a bit much of a status though, I'd sum them up as allies of opportunity. I think the Eldar have a bigger beef with the Dark Eldar then vice versa, and they do fight each other.

It's also not that "Battle Brothers" implies that they hang out after the battle, tossing back the brewskis and high-fiving one another, but that the status of Battle Brother allows certain game mechanics to apply to them. An Eldar Farseer or Warlock who is "Battle Brothers" with a Dark Eldar unit can use their various psychic powers on that unit, and so forth.

It's a game mechanic ruling, not a fluff ruling.

Slaanesh is more the master of the DE than the enemy. Albeit in a subversive way that perhaps even the DE themselves are not aware of.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also not that "Battle Brothers" implies that they hang out after the battle, tossing back the brewskis and high-fiving one another, but that the status of Battle Brother allows certain game mechanics to apply to them. An Eldar Farseer or Warlock who is "Battle Brothers" with a Dark Eldar unit can use their various psychic powers on that unit, and so forth.

It's a game mechanic ruling, not a fluff ruling.

This is really sums up the issue in my mind.

En Excelsis wrote:
[
I am not an editor and thusly my opinions as stated are not something the authors are likely to consider. Which is fine. My ranting here and stating that I don't like their work, or even if the thought the font the book was printed in was silly, it's an opinion and one which I am entitled to. I don't feel the need to take it further than that.

As it pertains to the rest... you are right. I am "hung up" on the Bloodstone issue. And while I am not ignoring other segments of the codex, I am forming my opinion with full knowledge of them.

I don't envy the writers of the codex one bit; they have a difficult job, which inevitably leads to mistakes. They are charged with taking a VAST amount of information about a game that has existed for decades, keeping up with the lore, and condensing that information into a format that isn't 40,000 pages long. Then, they must find a way to translate a world of imaginary supermen battling monstrous aliens into a set of rules based on a few dice and measuring tape. Trust me... they have a lot on their plate.

For these reasons, I don't besmirch the codex writers ('cept maybe Mat Ward) for their work. It's no wonder they write in contradictions. I think it's natural that some mistakes make into the printed work, nothing is perfect after all. Or hell, maybe I am wrong and the writers are so Goddamn awesome that write in insanely complicated contradictions into their own work just to have a laugh when they read forum posts like this one.

But no mater why the contradictions are there... by intent or accident. They are there.

As a writer I may want to create a character who the viewers will think it altruistic and noble... so I would probably write his story in such a way to illustrate that. Perhaps tell you that he dives in front of speeding cars to rescue small puppies from a squishy demise. But if that's my intent I would be a fool to write into that same story that he sometimes goes off on murderous escapades and brutally rapes his sisters while gaking on his mother's corpse. That would probably not make him look so altruistic and noble now would it?

So why, on one hand would the others create something that the Dark Eldar use, which is a profane offence to the average CWE, and then just (following the analogy of brothers or cousins) show up a Christmas or some family reunion like it didn't happen? It's not something that can be overlooked or ignored. This isn't something like an accident. The DE are not children who make silly mistakes that the Eldar look down their noses at. They are actively and deliberately offending the Eldar in everything they do. Perhaps I just have a different family background than you guys, but if that was the behavior of my "cousins" or "brothers" I would personally not just have them over for family time when it was convenient.

This is grimdark... this is 40k.

Remember the rules a few years back when Marines and Chaos would ALWAYS attack each other, even if a greater threat was present? Such was their hatred that they would rather die fighting each other than live, even for a moment, as allies.

Why is that not the case for the Eldar?

And before the IoM hate posts come rolling in I'll head them off by saying that I am not trying to imply that every race should behave like humans. But remember that they are all part of the same picture... if 40k is to be Grimdark at all... you can't have shiny happy space elves frolicking about forgiving all the trespasses done to them. More specifically, the codices state (and to my knowledge have not be retconned) that the Eldar are race given to MORE intense feelings than mankind... their hate would be one hundred fold that of the IoM and Chaos...

So, one question in all you say troubles me (other than the part you freely claim this is actually your personal gripe and you're just having a rant, which does render everything else you're saying a bit irrelevant...).

Why does the part saying incubi hunt down aspect warriors to claim their soulstones have more credence than the part where the dark eldar came to the aid of the craftworld, driving off the orkish attacks? How was it that you came to the conclusion that one part has dominance over another part and that that other part, written by the same author, was wrong and that only part of the codex Lore has weight?

Why does the actions of a small cult of dark eldar warriors preclude the two social groups of the same species working together when confronted with extreme adversity?

You appear to be saying 'These two separate parts of the Lore, which do not, in of themselves, exclude one another, in my belief entirely contradict each other and I'm choosing one part over another to fit my view of how things should be, regardless of the fact that the other part has been featured in novels and is now part of the core rules in the allies matrix'. The evidence is firmly against you in several GW media.

You also seem to be blurring Eldar vs Dark Eldar with Imperium vs servants of Chaos. Dark Eldar /= Chaos Eldar... Craftworld Eldar /= Fascist Authoritarian Eldar...

The eldar are just split via ideology, further, there is a very influential group of their people mediating between them often (Harlies).

I think you're making a mistake of latching absolutely onto a certain part of the codex and missing the wider picture, it's like reading the abominable fluff in the GK book and deciding that GKs and SoB exist in a perpetual mongoose and cobra like battle due to 'that excerpt'...

Also, your criticisms of BL authors read like personal insults and blanket statements. I've read some books from the BL that I've long since forgotten and considered 'not very good' and other books that I've gone back and reread due to my high enjoyment. Your mileage might very well vary, but insulting the people that wrote the books is juvenile.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's also not that "Battle Brothers" implies that they hang out after the battle, tossing back the brewskis and high-fiving one another, but that the status of Battle Brother allows certain game mechanics to apply to them. An Eldar Farseer or Warlock who is "Battle Brothers" with a Dark Eldar unit can use their various psychic powers on that unit, and so forth.

It's a game mechanic ruling, not a fluff ruling.

Well all rules are mechanical in nature since they represent the rolling of dice and not any actual motivation for the little plastic men on the table.

But if that's your logic than why is the Allies Chart even there if not to imply that some races are more in less inclined to fight on the side of another. No one ever questioned that a farseer from one craftworld would use his powers to assist his own kind in a battle... or that the Dark Angels wouldn't come fighting to the rescue if the Imperial Fists were under attack. That is assumed.

What the Allies chart represents is the level of closeness between two given factions. Marines are "battle brothers" with other marines. Unless stated otherwise, they probably would toss a few back after a fight.

I am not arguing that a Farseer could or could not technically use her powers to divine some alternative outcome for an ally of her choosing... she most certainly could help the Orks win a major WAAAGH! if she thought it would prevent even a single Eldar death. And if that is true than she most certainly could use her gifts to aid the Dark Eldar... but I'm not worried about what she (the Eldar) could do. I am arguing what she would do. And I find it unreasonable to assume that she would even consider the notion

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:
[
I am not an editor and thusly my opinions as stated are not something the authors are likely to consider. Which is fine. My ranting here and stating that I don't like their work, or even if the thought the font the book was printed in was silly, it's an opinion and one which I am entitled to. I don't feel the need to take it further than that.

As it pertains to the rest... you are right. I am "hung up" on the Bloodstone issue. And while I am not ignoring other segments of the codex, I am forming my opinion with full knowledge of them.

I don't envy the writers of the codex one bit; they have a difficult job, which inevitably leads to mistakes. They are charged with taking a VAST amount of information about a game that has existed for decades, keeping up with the lore, and condensing that information into a format that isn't 40,000 pages long. Then, they must find a way to translate a world of imaginary supermen battling monstrous aliens into a set of rules based on a few dice and measuring tape. Trust me... they have a lot on their plate.

For these reasons, I don't besmirch the codex writers ('cept maybe Mat Ward) for their work. It's no wonder they write in contradictions. I think it's natural that some mistakes make into the printed work, nothing is perfect after all. Or hell, maybe I am wrong and the writers are so Goddamn awesome that write in insanely complicated contradictions into their own work just to have a laugh when they read forum posts like this one.

But no mater why the contradictions are there... by intent or accident. They are there.

As a writer I may want to create a character who the viewers will think it altruistic and noble... so I would probably write his story in such a way to illustrate that. Perhaps tell you that he dives in front of speeding cars to rescue small puppies from a squishy demise. But if that's my intent I would be a fool to write into that same story that he sometimes goes off on murderous escapades and brutally rapes his sisters while gaking on his mother's corpse. That would probably not make him look so altruistic and noble now would it?

So why, on one hand would the others create something that the Dark Eldar use, which is a profane offence to the average CWE, and then just (following the analogy of brothers or cousins) show up a Christmas or some family reunion like it didn't happen? It's not something that can be overlooked or ignored. This isn't something like an accident. The DE are not children who make silly mistakes that the Eldar look down their noses at. They are actively and deliberately offending the Eldar in everything they do. Perhaps I just have a different family background than you guys, but if that was the behavior of my "cousins" or "brothers" I would personally not just have them over for family time when it was convenient.

This is grimdark... this is 40k.

Remember the rules a few years back when Marines and Chaos would ALWAYS attack each other, even if a greater threat was present? Such was their hatred that they would rather die fighting each other than live, even for a moment, as allies.

Why is that not the case for the Eldar?

And before the IoM hate posts come rolling in I'll head them off by saying that I am not trying to imply that every race should behave like humans. But remember that they are all part of the same picture... if 40k is to be Grimdark at all... you can't have shiny happy space elves frolicking about forgiving all the trespasses done to them. More specifically, the codices state (and to my knowledge have not be retconned) that the Eldar are race given to MORE intense feelings than mankind... their hate would be one hundred fold that of the IoM and Chaos...

So, one question in all you say troubles me (other than the part you freely claim this is actually your personal gripe and you're just having a rant, which does render everything else you're saying a bit irrelevant...).

Why does the part saying incubi hunt down aspect warriors to claim their soulstones have more credence than the part where the dark eldar came to the aid of the craftworld, driving off the orkish attacks? How was it that you came to the conclusion that one part has dominance over another part and that that other part, written by the same author, was wrong and that only part of the codex Lore has weight?

Why does the actions of a small cult of dark eldar warriors preclude the two social groups of the same species working together when confronted with extreme adversity?

You appear to be saying 'These two separate parts of the Lore, which do not, in of themselves, exclude one another, in my belief entirely contradict each other and I'm choosing one part over another to fit my view of how things should be, regardless of the fact that the other part has been featured in novels and is now part of the core rules in the allies matrix'. The evidence is firmly against you in several GW media.

You also seem to be blurring Eldar vs Dark Eldar with Imperium vs servants of Chaos. Dark Eldar /= Chaos Eldar... Craftworld Eldar /= Fascist Authoritarian Eldar...

The eldar are just split via ideology, further, there is a very influential group of their people mediating between them often (Harlies).

I think you're making a mistake of latching absolutely onto a certain part of the codex and missing the wider picture, it's like reading the abominable fluff in the GK book and deciding that GKs and SoB exist in a perpetual mongoose and cobra like battle due to 'that excerpt'...

Also, your criticisms of BL authors read like personal insults and blanket statements. I've read some books from the BL that I've long since forgotten and considered 'not very good' and other books that I've gone back and reread due to my high enjoyment. Your mileage might very well vary, but insulting the people that wrote the books is juvenile.

I don't understand your question. What exactly am I overlooking? I don't recall writing off the fact the DE killed some Orks to defend a craftworld. Nor am I implying that it didn't happen. If it comes to defending my statement that one part of the fluff must take precedence over another than I can't offer you any more than my logic.

Look at it like this. The Dark Eldar have done two things. We know that they use bloodstones (an example I won't elaborate on again since this whole argument is getting to be redundant anyway) in offence of the Eldar. And we know that there is AT LEAST one record of them coming to the aid of a craftworld with unknown intentions or motivation.

In my analogy above (which I grant you is just an analogy) one is, to me, of far greater importance than the other. I don't know how to state it in any other terms. It is not that I am only seeing one side of the coin... I am seeing both sides and stating that only one side makes sense to me. Or rather that only one side means anything.

To make another analogy. If a person (for coherency's sake; your cousin) walks up to you and punches you in the face without being funny or cute, but then hands you a candy bar, how would you react? Would you be like "Oh thank bro I love chocolate!". Probably not. The more believable response would be to completely ignore the candy bar and return the blow in kind?

The Incubi Cult are not the Dark Eldar as a whole

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:
[
I am not an editor and thusly my opinions as stated are not something the authors are likely to consider. Which is fine. My ranting here and stating that I don't like their work, or even if the thought the font the book was printed in was silly, it's an opinion and one which I am entitled to. I don't feel the need to take it further than that.

As it pertains to the rest... you are right. I am "hung up" on the Bloodstone issue. And while I am not ignoring other segments of the codex, I am forming my opinion with full knowledge of them.

I don't envy the writers of the codex one bit; they have a difficult job, which inevitably leads to mistakes. They are charged with taking a VAST amount of information about a game that has existed for decades, keeping up with the lore, and condensing that information into a format that isn't 40,000 pages long. Then, they must find a way to translate a world of imaginary supermen battling monstrous aliens into a set of rules based on a few dice and measuring tape. Trust me... they have a lot on their plate.

For these reasons, I don't besmirch the codex writers ('cept maybe Mat Ward) for their work. It's no wonder they write in contradictions. I think it's natural that some mistakes make into the printed work, nothing is perfect after all. Or hell, maybe I am wrong and the writers are so Goddamn awesome that write in insanely complicated contradictions into their own work just to have a laugh when they read forum posts like this one.

But no mater why the contradictions are there... by intent or accident. They are there.

As a writer I may want to create a character who the viewers will think it altruistic and noble... so I would probably write his story in such a way to illustrate that. Perhaps tell you that he dives in front of speeding cars to rescue small puppies from a squishy demise. But if that's my intent I would be a fool to write into that same story that he sometimes goes off on murderous escapades and brutally rapes his sisters while gaking on his mother's corpse. That would probably not make him look so altruistic and noble now would it?

So why, on one hand would the others create something that the Dark Eldar use, which is a profane offence to the average CWE, and then just (following the analogy of brothers or cousins) show up a Christmas or some family reunion like it didn't happen? It's not something that can be overlooked or ignored. This isn't something like an accident. The DE are not children who make silly mistakes that the Eldar look down their noses at. They are actively and deliberately offending the Eldar in everything they do. Perhaps I just have a different family background than you guys, but if that was the behavior of my "cousins" or "brothers" I would personally not just have them over for family time when it was convenient.

This is grimdark... this is 40k.

Remember the rules a few years back when Marines and Chaos would ALWAYS attack each other, even if a greater threat was present? Such was their hatred that they would rather die fighting each other than live, even for a moment, as allies.

Why is that not the case for the Eldar?

And before the IoM hate posts come rolling in I'll head them off by saying that I am not trying to imply that every race should behave like humans. But remember that they are all part of the same picture... if 40k is to be Grimdark at all... you can't have shiny happy space elves frolicking about forgiving all the trespasses done to them. More specifically, the codices state (and to my knowledge have not be retconned) that the Eldar are race given to MORE intense feelings than mankind... their hate would be one hundred fold that of the IoM and Chaos...

So, one question in all you say troubles me (other than the part you freely claim this is actually your personal gripe and you're just having a rant, which does render everything else you're saying a bit irrelevant...).

Why does the part saying incubi hunt down aspect warriors to claim their soulstones have more credence than the part where the dark eldar came to the aid of the craftworld, driving off the orkish attacks? How was it that you came to the conclusion that one part has dominance over another part and that that other part, written by the same author, was wrong and that only part of the codex Lore has weight?

Why does the actions of a small cult of dark eldar warriors preclude the two social groups of the same species working together when confronted with extreme adversity?

You appear to be saying 'These two separate parts of the Lore, which do not, in of themselves, exclude one another, in my belief entirely contradict each other and I'm choosing one part over another to fit my view of how things should be, regardless of the fact that the other part has been featured in novels and is now part of the core rules in the allies matrix'. The evidence is firmly against you in several GW media.

You also seem to be blurring Eldar vs Dark Eldar with Imperium vs servants of Chaos. Dark Eldar /= Chaos Eldar... Craftworld Eldar /= Fascist Authoritarian Eldar...

The eldar are just split via ideology, further, there is a very influential group of their people mediating between them often (Harlies).

I think you're making a mistake of latching absolutely onto a certain part of the codex and missing the wider picture, it's like reading the abominable fluff in the GK book and deciding that GKs and SoB exist in a perpetual mongoose and cobra like battle due to 'that excerpt'...

Also, your criticisms of BL authors read like personal insults and blanket statements. I've read some books from the BL that I've long since forgotten and considered 'not very good' and other books that I've gone back and reread due to my high enjoyment. Your mileage might very well vary, but insulting the people that wrote the books is juvenile.

How I have come to see it is pretty much based off of two different groups in this show called "Jericho".

The show itself is about a city of Kansas that is trying to survive a nuclear apocalypse.
The relevance to this thread is that there is a motorcycle gang that are "outlaws" of the town. But nonetheless the town and the gang have aided each other a few times for a common purpose or against a common enemy. If they were once family or whatever, I Am guessing there will be some bond. I am not saying that there is some mushy-gushy brotherly love between the two factions, because the Dark Eldar and the Craftworld do not necessarily like each other, but as stated many times before: It is more that it is kinda nice having that brother that can help beat up the other kids at school.

Imagine that we are back in the middle of the cold war. tensions between the US and soviet union are very tight. But then a group of aliens (lets call them necrons) invades the earth. would we not put aside our differences and fight the necrons together?

 Grey Templar wrote:
The DE and Craftworld eldar arn't enemies. Far from it.

They simply view each other as fellow survivors of the fall that have opposite ways of avoiding She who Thirsts. There is mobility between the two societies too.

add to this that eldar are extremely arrogant and view the entire galaxy as theirs. Both CWE and DE hate the fact that other races have taken their rightful place in the galaxy. They are game to work together to edge the younger races

They also both know about the true danger of the necrons and both will fight hard to put them down for good.

CWE eldar fluff talks of a final great battle when ALL ELDAR come together and finally defeat slannesh.

 Exergy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The DE and Craftworld eldar arn't enemies. Far from it.

They simply view each other as fellow survivors of the fall that have opposite ways of avoiding She who Thirsts. There is mobility between the two societies too.

add to this that eldar are extremely arrogant and view the entire galaxy as theirs. Both CWE and DE hate the fact that other races have taken their rightful place in the galaxy. They are game to work together to edge the younger races

They also both know about the true danger of the necrons and both will fight hard to put them down for good.

CWE eldar fluff talks of a final great battle when ALL ELDAR come together and finally defeat slannesh.

If you're referring to the Rhana Dhandra, I'd like to point out that it also specifically states that the Eldar basically die and leave Humanity as inheritors of the Galaxy. In that final confrontation at the BL.

Further lore from the C:E specifically states that the BL has only ever been visited by Eldar & less than a handful of Ordo Maleus Inquisitors, and ALWAYS under the close supervision of the Harlequins.

This, along with and Eldar one of the Inquisitorial councils (can anyone recall the name?) implies a certain degree of cooperation between the two races. At least on a very very small scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addition, I re-read the entry in the DE codex (which o my knowledge is the only printed example of CWE and DE fighting together).

Not only is that entire entry titled "An Unexpected Ally", it details that after the battle Seers of Lyanden asked the Kabal why they had come to fight for them. The answer the DE gave was NOT that they would have been sad to see them die, or that they would rather their own kin survive in the place of a lesser race... The answer was that they found their forays into Necromancy to be entertaining.

two seconds of reading and the only reason that the DE even deigned to be near the CWE was because they enjoyed the suffering that the CWE had to go through to "resurrect" their revered ancestors and call for their aid.

The DE prolong suffering... it's how they SURVIVE. what they did was because it prolonged the suffering of the Eldar. Not because it helped them. They treated the Eldar like they treat humans, orks, tau, and all other races... as long as they suffer, the DE don't have to meet their fate with Slaanesh.