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Ok so some explanation might be in order.

My FLGS is starting a campaign soon and while chatting with the organiser he said that to start with we will only be able to take non-special characters as HQ and only with their basic wargear; ie, no optional upgrades. And I was wondering:

What non-special character has the best or worst base wargear?

Looking at my own codex the Eldar Autarch is pretty shocking: 3+/4++ Shuriken Pistol, Plasma and Haywire Grenades and THATS IT. His only buff is +1 to reserve rolls and his only USR is Fleet. All for the low low price of 70pts...

Discuss!

Best would probably include Hive Tyrants, Greater Daemons, and Grey Knight Grandmasters. Maybe Grey Knight Librarians too.

well, you have Librarians (especially of the Grey Knight variety) who have Force Weapons and you have Chaplains with Power Mauls. There's the Necron Lords who I think have a Staff of Light with some high Strength and Toughness. Also Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants who are monstrous creature. A Dark Eldar Succubus could beat an Autarch in Melee from having higher Initiative. all in all, I'd say thier base effectiveness is proportional to their base point cost. important when Considering an Ork Warboss who has high stats, no special equipment but is the cheapest HQ aside from a IG Command Squad.

wait, Tau Commanders HAVE to get upgrades, it's part of their rules.

Grey Knight Commander? what are they called? well, they likely have the best base capabilities.

First of all, that's a stupid rule. Base wargear only makes no sense at all.

Second, the worst is an IG company commander: 5+/5++, laspistol, CCW, frag and krak. And with awful IG stats you can be sure it won't be killing anything.

The ork big mek. is TERRIBAD

Great input guys!

I agree Peregrine, its a bit unfair but I guess at least farseers HAVE to buy one power. I think the idea was to prevent beatstick HQs being unkillable killing machines in the early ultra-low point games.

And wow the Company Commander IS bad. You do get 5 guys for 50pts though!

I'd be feeling that Tyranids would win simply by virtue of being high T and all of the lovely stuff being an MC gives you

Imperial Guard Command Squads shouldn't try to get into combat, they're for giving orders, they're a force multiplier.

but yes, the worst in a straight up fight.

Is this an ongoing tournament whereby the commander gets upgrades each round? I recently played one of these myself at my local FLGS and it was one HQ which could not be a named character or a monstrous creature, with base statline and wargear only. About 10-12 people entered and it was basically a free-for-all.

The store issued us each a tally sheet, and based on how many kills you got, how many saves you made, wounds inflicted etc (basically the more dice you rolled, the better), the store would grant you upgrades to your character based on your pre-determined wargear wish list for the next round the following week.

I chose a Master of Sanctity from the Black Templar codex. He comes with power armour and an iron halo, a decent stat line, a power maul/bolt pistol and re-rolls to hit in first round of combat. This wasn't the only reason I chose him though. The Black Templar codex specifies that a Chaplain has open access to their armoury, and can be given pretty much anything, so I knew I could get some pretty beast-mode upgrades for him.

He ended up with a bike, artificer armour, thunder hammer and storm shield. Short of Abaddon and the Swarmlord, he's pretty much the best IC in the game for challenges.

The most annoying opponent I came up against was a fella using a GK Brotherhood Champion. He was rubbish in combat and I murdered him evert time we fought, but his Heroic Sacrifice upon death nailed me every bloody time. If you wanna be really annoying and get under the skin of your opponents, use one of those! lol.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:
I agree Peregrine, its a bit unfair but I guess at least farseers HAVE to buy one power. I think the idea was to prevent beatstick HQs being unkillable killing machines in the early ultra-low point games.

That's why you play with rulebook missions and use objectives. An unstoppable killing machine HQ in a low-point game means you have few troops and no heavy/fast/elites. So sure, take that "unstoppable" HQ, I'll just take a Medusa and wipe it off the table with one shot, and then win the game on objectives because you minimal troops can't survive long enough to score anything. Oh, and my Medusa is also better at killing than the HQ.

And of course what it really does is favor characters with fixed wargear (for example, a marine chaplain that starts with power armor + power weapon + 4++) instead of customization options. So, the marine player gets an effective "killing machine" HQ, while my IG army gets a CCS with no upgrades (a completely worthless unit). It's a clumsy solution to a nonexistent problem, it "fixes" HQs that aren't a problem, but then doesn't rule out much more effective HQs.

Anyway, the person running this seems like the average newbie who thinks that killing power is all that matters and doesn't understand how the game really works. This is not a good sign for their ability to run an event successfully.

 Lotet wrote:
Imperial Guard Command Squads shouldn't try to get into combat, they're for giving orders, they're a force multiplier.

but yes, the worst in a straight up fight.

Most people use them as the ultimate special weapon squad, a role they can perform extremely well for a cheap cost.

Unless you're playing foot IG, you usually have them doing heavy lifting somewhere in your list. And even footguard use them for their firepower occasionally like grabbing the Master of Ordnance and a cheap BS 4 lascannon.

OP, are there restrictions for HQ's bought in squads, like the IG's company command squad? Because if the entire squad can't buy upgrades that's ridiculous. Literally the only HQ IG could bring that isn't completely horrible would be a primaris pysker.

And while a warboss is still pretty killy with no upgrades, I doubt he'd be able to stand up to much. He'd only have a +6 save, no invuln, and no real weapons whatsoever beside a crappy pistol and a knife. With orks I'd probably take a big mek since he's the cheapest and then just take other things that are actually good.

The Eldar Avatar is not a special character, is he?
For his cost he has a great "wargear" and can bring some pain for a decent cost.

Avatar isn't an HQ is he? Even if he is, the tournament probably specifies it has to be an Independant Chacter or not a Monstrous Creature (or both). There has to be some degree of fairness.

Avatar isn't an HQ is he?

I think he technically is a special character, as he is The Avatar of Khaine.

And of course what it really does is favor characters with fixed wargear (for example, a marine chaplain that starts with power armor + power weapon + 4++) instead of customization options. So, the marine player gets an effective "killing machine" HQ, while my IG army gets a CCS with no upgrades (a completely worthless unit). It's a clumsy solution to a nonexistent problem, it "fixes" HQs that aren't a problem, but then doesn't rule out much more effective HQs.

Anyway, the person running this seems like the average newbie who thinks that killing power is all that matters and doesn't understand how the game really works. This is not a good sign for their ability to run an event successfully.

Well I don't know the complete set up yet so it was mostly speculation, I do agree though. Thinking about it I'd imagine MC HQs would be banned too, whenever they run special character 'royal rumble'-type events some WAAC guys usually ruin it with them

And while a warboss is still pretty killy with no upgrades, I doubt he'd be able to stand up to much. He'd only have a +6 save, no invuln, and no real weapons whatsoever beside a crappy pistol and a knife. With orks I'd probably take a big mek since he's the cheapest and then just take other things that are actually good.

I love the image of that, some Freebooters stole all his gear and tossed him out in the desert naked except for a rusty shoota and a shiv

I wouldn't say the avatar is a special character. He is no Eldrad after all, and with your other options its worth asking. He would beat any other character hands down with that monsterous stat line. Plus the melta, everyone loves the melta. Which he is immune to!

I would imagine the chosen model must be an un-named generic Independant Character in the interest of fairness. That's how they set out the one I played in and it was very fun indeed. Allowing Monstrous Creatures would totally offset the balance.

Enceladus wrote:
I would imagine the chosen model must be an un-named generic Independant Character in the interest of fairness. That's how they set out the one I played in and it was very fun indeed. Allowing Monstrous Creatures would totally offset the balance.

How would nids even play then? I thought all of their possible HQ options were MC's of some sort.

Well they get the prime and...wait oh no, thats it.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Well they get the prime and...wait oh no, thats it.

What the heck is a prime? Is that the genestealer +1 thing?

Also, I have to agree with the one guy on the whole "trying to fix a problem that isn't even there."

In low points games, of COURSE your HQ is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting. Odds are he's a good chunk of your army's points. And for the armies that pour a ton of points into their big beatstick HQ, they'll have to learn to play within that constraint, as that means they'll have a lot less troops and support units to help them win the game.

Forcing you to use unupgraded characters forces some races to basically have a forced handicap, while others have innate advantages.

This really seems fishy, as if the guy came up with a perfect list to use in this scenario and then wanted to make sure everyone else was stuck on his level.

 dreamakuma wrote:
The ork big mek. is TERRIBAD

This one.

He comes as a normal nob with nothing but the standard choppa / slugga oh and mek tools.. (35p clean)

Black Templars Marshal is probably the worst. Costs 80 points, starts with Power Armour. And his fists.

Conversely, the Emperor's Champion, depending on whether you count him as an SC or not, has a fantastic starting gear selection. S6 AP3 Power Weapon, 2+/4++, a Pistol and Frag Grenades!

Space marine captain is pretty bad. Does have a 4++ and I5, but only has a bolt pistol and chainsword.

Best HQ?

Commissarat Leman Russ squadron from the Imperial Guard Armored Division.

Yeah, you and your fancy infantry HQs can't do nuthin' against a tank. GOML.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Well they get the prime and...wait oh no, thats it.

What the heck is a prime? Is that the genestealer +1 thing?

No, that's the Broodlord.
The Tyranid Prime is an upgraded Warrior - T5, 3+ save, 3W base wargear of ScyTals and a Devourerer for 80 points. He's also one of two ICs in the book (4 if you count the Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord ability to join Tyrant Guard)

If MCs were allowed I'd take a Tervigon. No MCs/special characters then the Prime is literally the only option.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Space marine captain is pretty bad. Does have a 4++ and I5, but only has a bolt pistol and chainsword.

The captain is the weakest of the C:SM HQs. If you are going for the no war gear options, at least take the chapter master. "I've got my bolt pistol, chain sword, and an ORBITAL STRIKE!"

Captain just has his statline and a 4++
Librarians get a free force weapon and 2 powers, which can be nice.
Chaplains get a power maul and a 4++, and they hate you. Not bad for a naked HQ.
MotF have a 2+ armor save and the servo harness, which is a nice assortment of weapons.

do any HQ's come with terminator armor?

GK come with a force weapon, nice stats and psykic powers

Chaplins come with a powermaul and a 4++

Techmarines/MotF come with art armor and potentially a powerfist+plasma pistol

My bet is
Warpsmyths
they came with 2+ armor, a power axe, a meltagun, a flamer, and a ton of attacks.

Most GK IC's have Terminator armour as standard.

 Exergy wrote:
do any HQ's come with terminator armor?

My bet is
Warpsmyths
they came with 2+ armor, a power axe, a meltagun, a flamer, and a ton of attacks.

Grey Knight Grand Masters do. Edit: All Grey Knight HQs do (Excluding Inquisitors)

Warpsmiths are pretty awesome HQs. I only wish they had more options and there was a slightly weaker version that could be taken as an Elite unit.
In contrast, Dark Apostles are pretty bleh. Sure, they can allow you to reroll Chaos Boons, but that's about it. They're weaker than Loyalist Chaplains, and they don't even come with VotLW! Sure it's a free upgrade, but since OP said no optional wargear, they can't even do what they're good for.

Also, Daemon Princes are the worst, depending on how strict the "No upgrade" part is, since they HAVE to be upgraded. ;P

IG Command Squad for worst... They get a selection of Flash lights, Cardboard boxes and hope.

 xSPYXEx wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
do any HQ's come with terminator armor?

My bet is
Warpsmyths
they came with 2+ armor, a power axe, a meltagun, a flamer, and a ton of attacks.

Grey Knight Grand Masters do. Edit: All Grey Knight HQs do (Excluding Inquisitors)

Warpsmiths are pretty awesome HQs. I only wish they had more options and there was a slightly weaker version that could be taken as an Elite unit.
In contrast, Dark Apostles are pretty bleh. Sure, they can allow you to reroll Chaos Boons, but that's about it. They're weaker than Loyalist Chaplains, and they don't even come with VotLW! Sure it's a free upgrade, but since OP said no optional wargear, they can't even do what they're good for.

Also, Daemon Princes are the worst, depending on how strict the "No upgrade" part is, since they HAVE to be upgraded. ;P

i actually think they are pretty awful HQs. But if I was going to have to face off in some sort of silly basic war gear challenge I would probably go with him as that is what i have painted up. I wish they had come out with more options for the DA, WS, and low level sorcs. The HQ and psykic power section seems kind of rushed. My own feeling is that lvl 1 sorcs, buffed asiring champs, warpsmiths, and dark apostles should be 3 for 1 HQ choices.

The worst must be the Tau Ethereal. He gets 2 CCws and an underwhelming save. Not only that but I don't think he can actually get any options in the future to make him any better. You might be able to buy him a couple of drones. His entire existence is to act as a buff to the army, and its not even that good.