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Simple enough question: How do you think the forces of Pre Heresy Legions would do in the current M41 Galaxy from a point of view of engaging/wiping out current Imperium enemy forces - Tau, Newcrons, Nids etc.

Bare with me on my numbers, I dont have my books at hand but from Betrayal it seems Legion numbers ranged from about 80000 (WEs/Emps Children) to about 160000 (Ultras/Lunas) depending on Legion strengths.
So lets propose an average of say 120000 per legion giving a total of 18x120000 = 2160000 - about 2 million Astartes. Fair?

I've read that today there are around 1000 Legions obviously capped at circa 1000 Marines a piece. Now according to Betrayal that figure of 2 million are fully operational and capable Astartes.
Lets say todays Legions average about 800 active Astartes - fair? So thats a total of around 800000.
Just under a thrid of pre Heresy numbers.

Adding to that the obvious tactical and strategic power of the 18 Primarchs and the fact that pre H Legions had full battlefleets, could directly commandeer any available IG forces (as opposed to today where that has to be sanctioned by the council/regional commanders) and arguably had much larger fleets (In Fear to thread, the "Red Tear" is described as being even larger than a Grand Cruiser).

So how do you think current M41 Xenos could or would cope VS pre Heresy strenghts? Would it be a slaughter and a new age for the Imperium or would technological advances in todays Galaxy render the Legions at a disadvantage?

Feel free to clear up the numbers somewhat but would prefer not to get bogged down too much in semantics.

The basic question remains and would be interested in getting your guys views

I think that pre-Heresy Astates first target might be the Ecclesiarchy. After all their initial purpose was to reunite the human race under the Emperor's banner and spread the Imperial Truth.

Hmmm interesting!

The Thousand Sons numbered at most ,during their loyalty, 10,000 marines. And the Salamander's Legion was always referred to as "the Little Legion."

And the smurfs were double the number he quoted and word bearers up there too so it should equal itself out overall

I'd say the Legions would fair better than their modern day counterparts. Also, would this include the Primarch's?

Without a dought the Pre-Heresy Legions would rip apart any faction in M41. Including the IoM.

They would do very well, considering their size and the equipment that has been lost to the ages that they can bring to bear.

They would do well as there are more of them than "modern" marines and they have better equipment. Would it be enough to start a new golden age? Probably not. They would also be massively overstretched in the Imperium and beset on all sides.

After reading an assortment of HH novels and fluff alongside 40K novels and fluff I have come to the conclusion that modern space marines are far greater than their pre-heresy counterparts at the lowest levels with their higher levels being about equal.

Modern marines are more fully trained and versatile than their per heresy counterparts. A tactical marine has training with all forms of weaponry available to the squad for example.

This is a by product of the small size of chapters however, the real killer however would be the legion fleets, post codex astartes the chapters have had most of their ship to ship capabilities reduced just to boarding actions and planetary landings. Original strike cruisers and battle barges were proper void killers.

I think there would be a holy crap moment. as the current imperium sees both supposed traitor legions and dead primarchs fighting their enemies.
Plus they would be quite outdated with their tech. (not joking)

The issue is more about allowed concentration of force than anything else.

M41 marines are very hamstrung by the 1,000 man limit. That was on purpose in order to make sure that the power to threaten the Imperium could not fall into the hands of just a few men.

Pre Heresy legions were under no such restriction. Overwhelming force was used on nearly every world they conquered. If you showed up to an Eldar or Necron world with 40,000 marines then you can be sure that world would fall to the Imperium. Usually within a day, which is one of the top reasons why the Great Crusade was so successful. Entire species were wiped out as the imperial war machine just rolled on through.

It really doesn't matter if the quality of the Pre HH marines was lower than the quality of M41 marines. Overwhelming numbers won the day.

Along those lines if you put 10,000 Pre HH marines up against an equal number of M41 marines coming from 10 or so chapters, I'd still bet on the Pre HH ones. Mainly due to training. The Pre HH marines will have trained together and fought together in such large numbers. M41 marines haven't. The vast majority of M41 marines typically fight in less than company strength (100 or less), and more often than not in squad strength (10 or less).

Even when they do fight in larger battles, each chapter is typically given a sphere of influence and control to limit the repercussions of trying to force them to work together. With the approach to warfare at that level being completely different, you'd be hard pressed to find enough chapters able to pull it off.

Next, there really hasn't been many tech advances in the intervening 10k years. A few things here and there, but not enough to really change the battlescape. The only real plus is the number of M41 chapters that adhere at any level to Guilliman's Codex Astartes. But, again, there have been very few large scale battles that M41 chapters have been exposed to limiting it's effectiveness.

Finally, there is the problem of the commanders tendencies. Pre HH, most legions could count on a constant influx of recruits and equipment. In M41 a lot of chapters struggle to just stay at regular strength and losing 200 marines, or even a couple battle barges, could be catastrophic to their continued existence. Which means that Pre HH legions are free to take risks that might result in losing 1000 marines to obtain an objective. Risks that a M41 chapter would never even consider.

Ratius, this thread had more accurate numbers for the Legion sizes:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/497859.page

I do have a question to this, are these legions from BEFORE Monarchia? I only ask, as I think it would be very hard for the Word Bearers to cope if it was after.

Lorgar could go one of two ways, either he would embrace the current Imperium and kill off Erebus and Kor and their supporters, or he would be so enraged, he would have to join the 2nd and 11th Legions in oblivion.

Also, are the other Imperial factions coming along for the ride as well? The Silent Sisterhood, the Imperial Army? I only ask, as I feel that it would bolster the ranks of the returning armies, and make them a bit more unstoppable.

I do think that the Red King would love the current Imperium, his love of knowledge would cause him to kill lots of people on Terra, those nasty guys who destroy knowledge would have to go. But seeing his vision of Librarians and their usage would make him smile. I also feel he and the Grey Knights would enjoy talking.

Pre-Heresy legions would be great. They would be able to steamroll almost any opposition there is in the 40k universe. Looking at it from a logistics standpoint though, they would have to join up with their 40k counterparts, as that is the only way I ever see them getting the job done. Once they did that, they would then be free to spread Imperial Truth, and wipe out the Religious factions of the current Imperium.

The issue is more about allowed concentration of force than anything else.

M41 marines are very hamstrung by the 1,000 man limit. That was on purpose in order to make sure that the power to threaten the Imperium could not fall into the hands of just a few men.

Pre Heresy legions were under no such restriction. Overwhelming force was used on nearly every world they conquered. If you showed up to an Eldar or Necron world with 40,000 marines then you can be sure that world would fall to the Imperium. Usually within a day, which is one of the top reasons why the Great Crusade was so successful. Entire species were wiped out as the imperial war machine just rolled on through.

It really doesn't matter if the quality of the Pre HH marines was lower than the quality of M41 marines. Overwhelming numbers won the day.

Along those lines if you put 10,000 Pre HH marines up against an equal number of M41 marines coming from 10 or so chapters, I'd still bet on the Pre HH ones. Mainly due to training. The Pre HH marines will have trained together and fought together in such large numbers. M41 marines haven't. The vast majority of M41 marines typically fight in less than company strength (100 or less), and more often than not in squad strength (10 or less).

Even when they do fight in larger battles, each chapter is typically given a sphere of influence and control to limit the repercussions of trying to force them to work together. With the approach to warfare at that level being completely different, you'd be hard pressed to find enough chapters able to pull it off.

Next, there really hasn't been many tech advances in the intervening 10k years. A few things here and there, but not enough to really change the battlescape. The only real plus is the number of M41 chapters that adhere at any level to Guilliman's Codex Astartes. But, again, there have been very few large scale battles that M41 chapters have been exposed to limiting it's effectiveness.

Finally, there is the problem of the commanders tendencies. Pre HH, most legions could count on a constant influx of recruits and equipment. In M41 a lot of chapters struggle to just stay at regular strength and losing 200 marines, or even a couple battle barges, could be catastrophic to their continued existence. Which means that Pre HH legions are free to take risks that might result in losing 1000 marines to obtain an objective. Risks that a M41 chapter would never even consider.

Excellent post. I dont agree or disagree btw.

Ratius, this thread had more accurate numbers for the Legion sizes:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/497859.page

Fascinating, thanks for the link JD.

Also, are the other Imperial factions coming along for the ride as well? The Silent Sisterhood, the Imperial Army? I only ask, as I feel that it would bolster the ranks of the returning armies, and make them a bit more unstoppable.

Good Q!
No, is my anwser. That is just me as the OP trying to limit boundaries!
SS/IA/GKs were post HH?

If the pre-heresy forces magically came back then they would be a powerful force that would help a lot in securing the Impefium. If they magically replaced the current chapters I don'tthink they would help much. If their power is in overwhelming force then they would either be diluted too much to go and try and hold the current worlds, or there just wouldn't be enough battlegrouos to help that much.

Depends on which pre-HH force you mean as well - if its a smaller fleet from one of the smaller Legions it might not be that different it terms of power to a current chapter.

If its a bigger fleet then it would be a very potent force - lots of stuff that the Mechanicum would be very very eager to get their hands on I should think!