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Summary
There is a consensus by players that the combi-bolter is nowhere nearly as good as the storm bolter. People think that CSM got the disadvantage by having to use combi-bolters, and their terminators and rhinos are vastly inferior because of this.
This post will discuss the differences in detail and show the mathammer for both.



What Makes Them Different
Storm bolters are assault 2 weapons with a 24" range. Combi-bolters are rapid fire with a 24" range.
Given the platform, the difference between rapid fire and assault is inconsequential. They are located on either terminators or vehicles.

This means the key difference between the two is the following
* Storm bolters shoot twice over 12" to 24"
* Storm bolters hit 2/3 of the time
* Combi-bolters shoot once over 12" to 24"
* Combi-bolters hit 8/9 of the time.

Combi-bolters can take combi-weapons for 5 points per model. This can be a significant advantage, as it can give a melta threat when its not expected. Combi-plasma is decent as well, as its 1/3 the cost of a normal PG.

Combi-bolters are also better in overwatch.



Comparison Assumptions
For the purposes of this comparison, we will only care about "to hit" rolls. The damage/save rolls are identical when shooting at identical targets.

For the purposes of this comparison, we will not add combi-weapons to the combi-bolter (melta, plasma, flamer). This comparison is of the bolter aspect only.



Long Range Comparison
10 storm bolters will deliver 40/3 (2/3 * 20) hits, or 13.33333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver 80/9 (8/9 * 10) hits, or 8.8888 hits.

At long range, the storm bolter has delivered 4.4445 more hits than the combi-bolter, or a ~50% increase in damage output.
The damage increase is not 100% greater at long range, but only 50%, due to the twin-linked nature.

When Snap Firing...
10 storm bolters snap firing will deliver 20/6 (1/6 * 20) hits, or 3.333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver (.3055% * 10) hits, or 3.056 hits.
As you can see, the effects are nearly identical at long range.



Short Range Comparison
10 storm bolters will deliver 40/3 (2/3 * 20) hits, or 13.33333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver 160/9 (8/9 * 20) hits, or 17.7777 hits.

At short range, the combi-bolter delivered 4.4445 hits more than the storm bolter, or a 33% increase in damage output.
Again, this damage output increase is due to the twin-linked nature.

When Snap Firing
10 storm bolters snap firing will deliver 20/6 (1/6 * 20) hits, or 3.333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver (.3055% * 20) hits, or 6.11 hits.
At short range the combi-bolters hit nearly twice as often



What does it mean?
Combi-bolters are better at short range. Storm bolters are better at long range.

The question is, how do you plan on using your terminators? Do you plan on them staying over 12" away and shooting with their storm bolters/combis, or do you want them to get up close and personal.

It seems clear that the intended playstyle is for chaos to get in your face.

don't forget many Chaos characters can take a combi-bolter, thus denying them the ability to assault if used.

It seems a bit counter productive for terminators if you want them to get into assault. You have to get them really close to make those shots count and then... just stay there until the next turn.

That's true.
There are only one of two formats you should be playing a non-named lord/sorcerer today, and this should impact your playstyle.

Lord/Sorcerer on a Bike
This works very well if Nurgle, boosting the toughness of the unit up to 6.
I use this IC as a burning brand delivery system, a black mace delivery system, and a rapid responce.
Being able to move 24" a turn means he can go from one flank to the other quickly if your opponent is focusing on your flank.
This IC does not worry about a combi-bolter because they are relentless


Lord/Sorcerer in Terminator Armor
This IC is all about the challanges. With a 2+ save, most ICs weapons will bounce off.
- If your lord is Tzeentch, he can enjoy a 3++ save, making him very durable.
- Nurgle is another good option, as T5 makes bolters much less dangerous
- Khorne lords can take the Axe of Blind Ass-Kicking

This IC is not as mobile as a bike lord, but hes better in challanges. Being able to take a power axe/power sword, black mace, or LC/PF combo makes him very dangerous in challanges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:
It seems a bit counter productive for terminators if you want them to get into assault. You have to get them really close to make those shots count and then... just stay there until the next turn.

Terminators are relentless, they can assault after shooting.

 labmouse42 wrote:
That's true.
There are only one of two formats you should be playing a non-named lord/sorcerer today, and this should impact your playstyle.

Lord/Sorcerer on a Bike
This works very well if Nurgle, boosting the toughness of the unit up to 6.
I use this IC as a burning brand delivery system, a black mace delivery system, and a rapid responce.
Being able to move 24" a turn means he can go from one flank to the other quickly if your opponent is focusing on your flank.
This IC does not worry about a combi-bolter because they are relentless


Lord/Sorcerer in Terminator Armor
This IC is all about the challanges. With a 2+ save, most ICs weapons will bounce off.
- If your lord is Tzeentch, he can enjoy a 3++ save, making him very durable.
- Nurgle is another good option, as T5 makes bolters much less dangerous
- Khorne lords can take the Axe of Blind Ass-Kicking

This IC is not as mobile as a bike lord, but hes better in challanges. Being able to take a power axe/power sword, black mace, or LC/PF combo makes him very dangerous in challanges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:
It seems a bit counter productive for terminators if you want them to get into assault. You have to get them really close to make those shots count and then... just stay there until the next turn.

Terminators are relentless, they can assault after shooting.

I would suggest 2 more, Khorne Lord on Juggernaut is now fast enough to be a massive threat, also I have a lot of success with a Mastery Lvl 3 Sorcerer or tooled up Lord on Nurgle Palaquin.

I can definately see a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut. I read a rumor that when the new CD codex is released, CD ICs will be able to join daemon units of the same god. I really want to see a Khorne CSM lord leading a squad of bloodcrushers. It also fills the role of "rapid responce"

The Palaquin has proven worthwhile for you? Since it does not increase the toughness of the model, Ive been worried about using it. The bike means that your lord is then immune to ID from STR 10 attacks. The Palaquin lord can be doubled out and you lose all 5 wounds. I don't doubt you, I've just been afraid to use it.

To open a can of whoop-ass, an IC needs as many of the following traits as possible.
- AP 2 weapon
- 2+ Armor save
- 4++ or better save (or 5++/FNP which is 55% save)
- EW
- T5 or greater
- 4 wounds
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID through special rule (skulltaker) or doubling out (PK Warboss)
The more of these traits one possesses, the better they will do. That's why I chose the lords that I did. The bike lacks the 2+ armor save, but has greater mobility and a T6. The terminator lord has the 2+ save. A khorne lord on Jugg can bring the axe of blind-ass-kicking so fits some more critera.

Good thread. I remember Blackmoor talking about how bad combi bolters were on the chaos termies on the 11the company and thinking to myself their actually superior from 12" in. Most of the time this will be your firing range unless you footslog your termies which no one does. Your going to teleport or bring them in a land raider

Good summary BTW

phantommaster wrote:Good summary BTW

Thanks

Glocknall wrote:Good thread. I remember Blackmoor talking about how bad combi bolters were on the chaos termies on the 11the company and thinking to myself their actually superior from 12" in. Most of the time this will be your firing range unless you footslog your termies which no one does. Your going to teleport or bring them in a land raider

That's what made me start this thread. I was pondering that comment the other day.
Last night while putting my kids to sleep I was doing the math in my head and realized that it was not as simple as it seemed. The storm bolter was not twice as good at long range and the same at short range. After some analysis I discovered the combi-bolter is nowhere nearly as bad as its given flack for being.

 labmouse42 wrote:

The Palaquin has proven worthwhile for you? Since it does not increase the toughness of the model, Ive been worried about using it. The bike means that your lord is then immune to ID from STR 10 attacks. The Palaquin lord can be doubled out and you lose all 5 wounds. I don't doubt you, I've just been afraid to use it.

To open a can of whoop-ass, an IC needs as many of the following traits as possible.
- AP 2 weapon
- 2+ Armor save
- 4++ or better save (or 5++/FNP which is 55% save)
- EW
- T5 or greater
- 4 wounds
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID through special rule (skulltaker) or doubling out (PK Warboss)
The more of these traits one possesses, the better they will do. That's why I chose the lords that I did. The bike lacks the 2+ armor save, but has greater mobility and a T6. The terminator lord has the 2+ save. A khorne lord on Jugg can bring the axe of blind-ass-kicking so fits some more critera.

The Palaquin does have T5 and a 4++, 4 or 5 wounds, I take a Power Fist/ Lightning Claw for versatility, how often do you play against S10 and keeping him in a squad is always going to help.

If I'm not mistaken though, when you pay the extra for combi-flamer, combi plasma, etc the attached weapon is a bolter, not a combi bolter thus making you have the one special shot but no twin linked. If this is not the case, my friends and I have been playing incorrectly in that stance and would make CSM termis better because we have been playing it the one special shot then regular bolter

Thank goodness someone finally mathhammered this out.

 phantommaster wrote:
The Palaquin does have T5 and a 4++, 4 or 5 wounds, I take a Power Fist/ Lightning Claw for versatility, how often do you play against S10 and keeping him in a squad is always going to help.

Its a matter of meta. One guy I play often bring thunderwolves, and his lord is smashing a STR 10 hammer in my face.
Another guy I play often plays orks, so I'm chewing on STR 10 warboss klaws.
Its funny because those experiences can taint you for general play in big events, like Adepticon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exalbaru wrote:
If I'm not mistaken though, when you pay the extra for combi-flamer, combi plasma, etc the attached weapon is a bolter, not a combi bolter thus making you have the one special shot but no twin linked. If this is not the case, my friends and I have been playing incorrectly in that stance and would make CSM termis better because we have been playing it the one special shot then regular bolter

You are not mistaken - at least according to army builder.

Terminators, Chaos or otherwise, belong in close combat. They have 2+ armor and come standard with awesome melee weapons. To get to close combat, you need to be very close to the enemy, at least 12" away, which is coincidentally the double tap range of the combi bolters.

Now I'm not saying that combi bolters are automatically better. Delivery is the most important consideration. If you footslog them, stormbolters give you more shots from range as you advance, the same output as a ten-man tactical squad. If you pay for a land raider or deep strike them, you can deliver them 12" away, where the combi bolters are superior.

I've seen some people bring lots of footslogging terminators and use CSMs.

I've always been dubious about that unit. While the 2+ save is great, they die very quickly to plasma fire. They are also a torn unit, as power fists are excellent in assault.

Instead of a 'unit that rocks at everything' you wind up with a unit thats torn on what it wants to do.

 labmouse42 wrote:

* Storm bolters hit 2/3 of the time
* Combi-bolters shoot once over 12" to 24"
* Combi-bolters hit 8/9 of the time.

Is this some fancy Chaos thing I dont' know about? 8/9ths?

Edited because I can't spell Chaos lol

Hmm, thanks for this! I'd been despairing a bit about combi-bolters but since Termies are relentless then the unload, shoot, charge is actually best with combi-bolters.

I think you should look at snap firing or precision shots in your comparison. Snap firing at 15" and the storm bolter still has some advantage, but snap firing at 6" and the combi is way better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
don't forget many Chaos characters can take a combi-bolter, thus denying them the ability to assault if used.

but if you have a combi flamer/melta you can use your one shot right before you assault


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:


Long Range Comparison
10 storm bolters will deliver 40/3 (2/3 * 20) hits, or 13.33333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver 80/9 (8/9 * 10) hits, or 8.8888 hits.
At long range, the storm bolter has delivered 4.4445 more hits than the combi-bolter, or a ~50% increase in damage output.
The damage increase is not 100% greater at long range, but only 50%, due to the twin-linked nature.

Short Range Comparison
10 storm bolters will deliver 40/3 (2/3 * 20) hits, or 13.33333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver 160/9 (8/9 * 20) hits, or 17.7777 hits.
At short range, the combi-bolter delivered 4.4445 hits more than the storm bolter, or a 33% increase in damage output.
Again, this damage output increase is due to the twin-linked nature.

so 4.44 hits more at long range for the storm, 4.44 hits more for the combi at short range.
The question is: are you more likely to fire at short or long range. The answer is almost always long range. Also if you are going to be shooting at short range, often it is better to do less damage as you dont want to kill everything which will prevent you from charging. I find myself opting to avoid shooting often to ensure i get into assault. Especially against things that the bolters can actually hurt, or that have combat tactics.

also 13.33/8.88 50% more damage
17.77/13.33 is only 33% more damage

Why are combi-bolters hiting 8/9ths of the time? I am really confused right now.

Super Newb wrote:
Why are combi-bolters hiting 8/9ths of the time? I am really confused right now.

When you have twin-linked on a BS4 weapon, the chances of hitting jump from 2/3 to 8/9. That is the chance of you failing two to-hit rolls in a row.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Why are combi-bolters hiting 8/9ths of the time? I am really confused right now.

When you have twin-linked on a BS4 weapon, the chances of hitting jump from 2/3 to 8/9. That is the chance of you failing two to-hit rolls in a row.

But combi-weapons aren't twin-linked as a general rule. Are they for Chaos for some reason?

 Exergy wrote:
I think you should look at snap firing or precision shots in your comparison. Snap firing at 15" and the storm bolter still has some advantage, but snap firing at 6" and the combi is way better.

That's worth mentioning.

At Long Range
10 storm bolters snap firing will deliver 20/6 (1/6 * 20) hits, or 3.333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver (.3055% * 10) hits, or 3.056 hits.
As you can see, the effects are nearly identical at long range.

At Short Range
10 storm bolters snap firing will deliver 20/6 (1/6 * 20) hits, or 3.333 hits.
10 combi-bolter hits will deliver (.3055% * 20) hits, or 6.11 hits.
At short range the combi-bolters hit nearly twice as often


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Why are combi-bolters hiting 8/9ths of the time? I am really confused right now.

When you have twin-linked on a BS4 weapon, the chances of hitting jump from 2/3 to 8/9. That is the chance of you failing two to-hit rolls in a row.

But combi-weapons aren't twin-linked as a general rule. Are they for Chaos for some reason?

Combi-bolters (not combi-meltas, combi-plas, etc) are twin-linked.

That called Combi-Bolters because their a precursor to the Stormbolters. Essentially two bolters lashed together. The imperium later made the Storm bolter which is an assault 2 bolter.

Glocknall wrote:
That called Combi-Bolters because their a precursor to the Stormbolters. Essentially two bolters lashed together. The imperium later made the Storm bolter which is an assault 2 bolter.

Ohhhhhh.... I thought 'combi-bolter' was just the general term for combi-plasma and combi-melta and combi-flamer.

Glocknall wrote:
That called Combi-Bolters because their a precursor to the Stormbolters. Essentially two bolters lashed together. The imperium later made the Storm bolter which is an assault 2 bolter.

That's the fluff behind it.
This thread is about the math between the two in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:
The question is: are you more likely to fire at short or long range. The answer is almost always long range. Also if you are going to be shooting at short range, often it is better to do less damage as you dont want to kill everything which will prevent you from charging. I find myself opting to avoid shooting often to ensure i get into assault. Especially against things that the bolters can actually hurt, or that have combat tactics.

also 13.33/8.88 50% more damage
17.77/13.33 is only 33% more damage

You are correct. Often if you are at the cusp of your assault you don't want to shoot.
Vanilla marines are going to be a problem anyway, as they will lose the assault, fall back from your terminators who cannot sweep, then shoot you in the face. And people say combat tactics is useless....

If your sitting 10" away from your enemy you want to unload. Your not going to make that assault anyway. Those are the cases where the advantage of the combi comes into place.

I also noticed the percentages. What I found fascinating was the actual number of extra hits caused was identical.

Sadly, CSM Reaper autocannons also kind of suck. CMLs outperform them.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
That called Combi-Bolters because their a precursor to the Stormbolters. Essentially two bolters lashed together. The imperium later made the Storm bolter which is an assault 2 bolter.

That's the fluff behind it.
This thread is about the math between the two in game.

lol yes, but since I was confused about the math because I didn't know what the term meant Glocknalls comment was very helpful to me.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
The question is: are you more likely to fire at short or long range. The answer is almost always long range. Also if you are going to be shooting at short range, often it is better to do less damage as you dont want to kill everything which will prevent you from charging. I find myself opting to avoid shooting often to ensure i get into assault. Especially against things that the bolters can actually hurt, or that have combat tactics.

also 13.33/8.88 50% more damage
17.77/13.33 is only 33% more damage

You are correct. Often if you are at the cusp of your assault you don't want to shoot.
Vanilla marines are going to be a problem anyway, as they will lose the assault, fall back from your terminators who cannot sweep, then shoot you in the face. And people say combat tactics is useless....

Few C:SM units are going to survive a charge from CSM terminators, lose and then have any firepower left to unload.

 labmouse42 wrote:

If your sitting 10" away from your enemy you want to unload. Your not going to make that assault anyway. Those are the cases where the advantage of the combi comes into place.

so from 10-12" CSM terminators are better than loyalists TAC termintes because they have combi bolters. Wooohoo
I also noticed the percentages. What I found fascinating was the actual number of extra hits caused was identical.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Sadly, CSM Reaper autocannons also kind of suck. CMLs outperform them.

Everyone knows Reaper autocannons should be been upped to Heavy 3 twinlinked. They are worse than any other terminator heavy weapons(psycannon, assault cannon, plasma cannon, CSM)

The idea that they are crap is a hangover from 3rd edition IMHO. Back then, assault weapons were by far and away better than rapid fire weapons.