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Scottywan82 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Oh good, longfang spam + sanguinary priests is gonna become a thing. Fun. I wonder if I can fit a full palladin squad inside a vendetta? This is gonna cause problems.

As others have said, "with opponents permission" is implicit in all rules because if you don't want to play with someone YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Also, I imagine the allies will not be able to use allied transports, which is consistent with past behavior.

So chill, please.

I haven't read in this rumors that "with opponents permission" is in there. If I missed it then thank you for pointing that out.

You misunderstand. EVERYTHING is with opponents permission. It's a game, you need to agree or just choose not to play against that person....

Ahh, well it's lovely that you have a seemingly infinite pool of opponants that don't care when you refuse to play them based on their army choices. I don't have that.

The terrain part is something that will almost definately be ignored in my gaming group. We struggle to afford army models, let alone expensive building and terrain.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Ahh, well it's lovely that you have a seemingly infinite pool of opponants that don't care when you refuse to play them based on their army choices. I don't have that.

So you can't find anyone who won't spam things like Sanguiniary Priests and Long Fangs? Man, you're in the store from hell, I guess. I know there's always a few TFGs in any store, but you can't find ANYONE? You have my unending pity.

2d6 assault range you say?

More randomness, wonderful... -.-

As a Nid player, no flamers for Snap Fire, that's a relief. Not too glad for JotWW staying on top of other powers. Nids have no Jump Infantry, only units that moves like Jump Infantry, the wording/errata will decide.
I expect allies to be banned in tournaments, so I don't care about that.

Only reason I care for the buying of terrain is for the massive number of sentry turrets i've built from left over weapon bitz.

If I can drop 150 points on half a dozen sentries, i'd be very happy.

Scottywan82 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Ahh, well it's lovely that you have a seemingly infinite pool of opponants that don't care when you refuse to play them based on their army choices. I don't have that.

So you can't find anyone who won't spam things like Sanguiniary Priests and Long Fangs? Man, you're in the store from hell, I guess. I know there's always a few TFGs in any store, but you can't find ANYONE? You have my unending pity.

Well after several years of painfully unbalanced codex releases the local population that was always kind of slim has started to rotate into warmachine. There's only so long that they can feth up 40k before they run out of players. It's lame to tell someone "no, i won't play against the army you brought today". It was lame when they were playing grey knights and it'll be lame now. Refusing to play because this game is becoming broken unless your opponent decides to let you fingerpaint their army is lame.

And probably not-so-coincidentally, terrain just got a lot of price increases IIRC...

I wonder if 6th edition could pretty much render assault armies invalid? Largely on account of the 2D6 assault alone.
Could be interesting or disheartening to see.

I'm with Shuma. The core rules set the tone and the environment for play. If the core rules are silly, then the "standard" game will be silly. If I want to house rule 40K, I can. But at this point the main attraction of 40K is that it is easily transfered if you move and need to find a new group, so pick up games should be solid. It's a major strength. Fragmenting the playerbase by encouraging house rules and "comp" is not a good thing at all in an expensive hobby like this.

You never know. Perhaps the insane will balance out. But I doubt it will make the game a lot better.

One thing though. I run a club for a bunch of 12 to 14 year old boys. I don't play, I just supervise and make terrain. They LOVE allies, and being able to take the new cool thing that conceivably could work with their faction. The rules as suggested are pretty much how they already play the game, right down to making a cool terrain piece with guns and wanting to use it in game as if it was a model. I don't stop them or try to dictate the "right" way to play, although I do advise using points rather than "all my stuff fights all your stuff". But I've got Grey Knight Space Marine Blood Angel armies with Stormravens led by Pedro Cantor with a unit of Ravenwing bikes in there as a regular occurrence. I can easily believe these rumoured rules, if true, are simply a way for GW to encourage these youngsters to keep buying the new hotness and getting to use it, at minimal investment.

Just Dave wrote:And probably not-so-coincidentally, terrain just got a lot of price increases IIRC...

I wonder if 6th edition could pretty much render assault armies invalid? Largely on account of the 2D6 assault alone.
Could be interesting or disheartening to see.

Why would increasing assault ranges hurt assault armies?

If this has been posted, sorry:

-Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and
Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to
strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles,
making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.

- Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the
full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors
can fire their weapons up to 30" away), no confirmation on the 3x fire
for Relentless at half range though.

- Assault moves are indeed 2d6", but added together. Units equipped
with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.

- The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge

- All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24", doing
something called a "Vector Strike", which is a certain amount of
automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the
creature.

- Monstrous creatures' attacks are explicitly AP 2

- Every army must select a "Warlord" or single general to lead the
army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three
different types of abilities, "Personal", "Inspirational" or
"Strategic". They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability
it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all
friendlies within 12" his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord
being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called
"Immovable Object")

- Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to
the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit
them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is
still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous
creatures with the ability to Fly also get this "6-to-hit" rule.

- You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
(which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them
are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.

- Now we're on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren't laid
out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as
in WHFB. They refer to allied units as "Detachments", and there is an
example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some
detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the
impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment
from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy
army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic
rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.

- Here's a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the
ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1.
Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic
power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire
at their usual BS.

- Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack,
allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It
mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more
easily.

- It's somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against
vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes
vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are "AP 1, AP
2, and AP 3 Damage dice", or something to that effect.

- 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in
terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the
back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a
particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large
amount of armies don't have access to any at all. -Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and
Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to
strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles,
making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.

- Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the
full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors
can fire their weapons up to 30" away), no confirmation on the 3x fire
for Relentless at half range though.

- Assault moves are indeed 2d6", but added together. Units equipped
with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.

- The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge

- All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24", doing
something called a "Vector Strike", which is a certain amount of
automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the
creature.

- Monstrous creatures' attacks are explicitly AP 2

- Every army must select a "Warlord" or single general to lead the
army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three
different types of abilities, "Personal", "Inspirational" or
"Strategic". They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability
it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all
friendlies within 12" his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord
being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called
"Immovable Object")

- Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to
the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit
them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is
still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous
creatures with the ability to Fly also get this "6-to-hit" rule.

- You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
(which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them
are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.

- Now we're on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren't laid
out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as
in WHFB. They refer to allied units as "Detachments", and there is an
example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some
detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the
impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment
from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy
army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic
rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.

- Here's a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the
ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1.
Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic
power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire
at their usual BS.

- Monstrous Creatures have access to a special "Smash" attack,
allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It
mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more
easily.

- It's somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against
vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes
vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are "AP 1, AP
2, and AP 3 Damage dice", or something to that effect.

- 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in
terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There's a chart near the
back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a
particular army gains access to. It's interesting to see that a large
amount of armies don't have access to any at all.

I expect the 'buy a terrain piece to abuse' rules will go the same way as the rules for buildings Fantasy - never used.

Yeah, average should be 7 with as much chance of a crazy 12 as a 2. I'm almost always rolling dice to assault anyhow, because of terrain, so that makes little difference to me. I prefer games with defined movement distances, but I can live with random assault range.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Just Dave wrote:And probably not-so-coincidentally, terrain just got a lot of price increases IIRC...

I wonder if 6th edition could pretty much render assault armies invalid? Largely on account of the 2D6 assault alone.
Could be interesting or disheartening to see.

Why would increasing assault ranges hurt assault armies?

No set assault distance. You aren't guaranteed a minimum. You may have just moved into the open and rolled double 1's to assault when you're only 3" away and are going to get gang raped the following turn. Randomness. Your assault becomes a gamble.

My thoughts on allies are that everything will be ok as long as everyone is equally broken. Just ask my IG/Space Wolf alliance.

N.I.B. wrote:I expect the 'buy a terrain piece to abuse' rules will go the same way as the rules for buildings Fantasy - never used.

Maybe but unlike Fantasy, terrain additions in 6th Edition 40K appear to be part of the FOC...not just a section of options added by agreed upon random rolls in the rulebook for terrain pieces. The other problem in fantasy is that not many people or FLGS own the terrain pieces, but if you want it in your 40K army you have to bring it to the game like any other model in your list.

Opponents can just say "No" but at this early stage I'm likely to let people play them just so I can see how it works.

I'm tempted to get a defense line myself. I've wanted one anyway.

So, is the 2d6" assault range in addition to movement, or?

Guess we'll find out.

And if Hull Points work like Structure points, or as someone mentioned before, something we can use to negate damage effects, Vehicles will probably be just as durable. Besides, you could already get glanced to death through various immobilized/weapon destroyed results. (And for some vehicles, being immobilized / weapon destroyed was just as bad as being killed.)

I think its very bad because random charges don't let you set up hammer and anvil charges like you do now. For example:

The only way an ork player can hope to beat alpha level assault units (death cult, paladin, genestealers etc) is to charge 20-30 in and tie up the models. Then you bring meganobz in on the side and get only into base to base with a few of the deathstar. That way your hammer can only get tagged by a few attacks and you can then turn around and murder the unit with powerklawz.

You cant do this (at least under current assault rules, I know they're changing) with a random charge. I don't like the sound of this at all for my boyz.

N.I.B. wrote:I expect the 'buy a terrain piece to abuse' rules will go the same way as the rules for buildings Fantasy - never used.

Both the allies and the purchaseable terrain completely break competitive gaming so they will never be allowed like you said. That's what's sad. Everyone hopes (or hoped) for a core rule set that doesn't need a 30 page tournament restrictions leaflet to go with it. I would've liked a game that I know is the same everywhere I go like Da Boss said. It just seems 5th edition 40K was some sort of an anomaly just like the previous edition of Warhammer. A decent core rule set imbalanced by bad army books, followed by a ridiculously bad new core rule set. Basically it's just getting from bad to worse as new rumours are trickling in. The final thing I need right now is someone to come yelling how the spell lists have the pink sun of tzeentch that destroys the entire target unit if they fail one initiative test or whatever.

Tyranids allying with Tyranids means that they might finally be able to use all those Elites choices in some capacity.

ThePhish wrote:Your assault becomes a gamble.

As it rightfully should be, IMHO. It could definitely help my Tau, that's for sure. Nothing like that group of Orks stopping dead cold a couple inches from my gun line... Then again...that squad of SS/TH Termies just huffed it an additional 11" to take on my armor...I think it'll balance itself out in the end.

I think my dark eldar bastion will be two inches deep and a foot long and a foot tall. Don't worry they will never make a model so.mine will be legit.forever!

spectreoneone wrote:

ThePhish wrote:Your assault becomes a gamble.

As it rightfully should be, IMHO. It could definitely help my Tau, that's for sure. Nothing like that group of Orks stopping dead cold a couple inches from my gun line... Then again...that squad of SS/TH Termies just huffed it an additional 11" to take on my armor...I think it'll balance itself out in the end.

You know whats weird? Crisis suits always get to shoot the same distance, i mean, what happens if one of them accidentally looks at the sun or something? I can't tell you how often I would be saved if they would just have a 9 inch range instead of that damn 12 inch double tap! Then again, sometimes maybe they could shoot 40 inches also. That'd be fun. Lets just get rid of the measurements in this game, they're just holding it back. It'll all even out in the end.

spectreoneone wrote:

ThePhish wrote:Your assault becomes a gamble.

As it rightfully should be, IMHO. It could definitely help my Tau, that's for sure. Nothing like that group of Orks stopping dead cold a couple inches from my gun line... Then again...that squad of SS/TH Termies just huffed it an additional 11" to take on my armor...I think it'll balance itself out in the end.

Not to mention, for your Tau, removing those Ork Boyz barreling in from front to back.

I have a feeling this edition is going to make fast skimmers awesome, if only because they'll let people jocky for position to get at the rear part of squads, where Missile Launchers/Heavy Weapons are hiding out. I know I'd enjoy killing a nob that's hiding in the back of a mob.

Tyranids allying with Tyranids means that they might finally be able to use all those Elites choices in some capacity.

Haha, that's great Can three or four armies ally? Necrons want 4-5 Overlords in CCBs and IG want 6-9 independent Vendettas. I guess you could take duplicates of the same special character this way too.

Therion wrote:

Tyranids allying with Tyranids means that they might finally be able to use all those Elites choices in some capacity.

Haha, that's great Can three or four armies ally? I guess you could take duplicates of the same special character this way too.

As long as they aren't unique, sure. I imagine things like that will still apply.

spectreoneone wrote:

ThePhish wrote:Your assault becomes a gamble.

As it rightfully should be, IMHO. It could definitely help my Tau, that's for sure. Nothing like that group of Orks stopping dead cold a couple inches from my gun line... Then again...that squad of SS/TH Termies just huffed it an additional 11" to take on my armor...I think it'll balance itself out in the end.

No. No it should not be. Assault is how some armies do business. The only way they do business
Saying assault should be a gamble is like saying your shooting should be a gamble. All ranged attacks, all night fighting, all the time. Sound like fun now? That's how assault players feel.

Crazyterran wrote:

Therion wrote:

Tyranids allying with Tyranids means that they might finally be able to use all those Elites choices in some capacity.

Haha, that's great Can three or four armies ally? I guess you could take duplicates of the same special character this way too.

As long as they aren't unique, sure. I imagine things like that will still apply.

Can anyone explain to me what's the point of a FOC then? I mean, Necron Overlords in CCBs are very good now and seemingly insanely good in 6th because of all the buffs they're getting, but I get to take only two of them. So, to get around that I only need to ally with another Necron detachment and now I have 4 HQ choices as long as I take 3 troop choices. I also get access to 6 units of Wraiths and other garbage. Is this the new 40K?

Goresaw wrote: All ranged attacks, all night fighting, all the time. Sound like fun now? That's how assault players feel.

sounds like you are playing necrons

But really if you areplaying against a decent opponent, you'll be assaulting through cover at least 40-50% of the time, so the difference is that now you have a chance of going more than 6 (and will average a little more)

This is to help with the removing casualties from the front thing.

Therion wrote:Can anyone explain to me what's the point of a FOC then? I mean, Necron Overlords in CCBs are pretty good now and seemingly insanely good in 6th because of all the buffs they're getting, but I get to take only two of them. So, to get around that I only need to ally with another Necron detachment and now I have 4 HQ choices as long as I take 3 troop choices. I also get access to 6 units of Wraiths and other garbage. Is this the new 40K?

No, this is just you going off on a wild, uninformed hyperbole.