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With the amount of rumours (some of them presumably true) flying around, and the anticipation so high already, i don't think GW needs to do any marketting.

Praxiss wrote:With the amount of rumours (some of them presumably true) flying around, and the anticipation so high already, i don't think GW needs to do any marketting.

I say again. What marketing? GW views the Internet crowd as a vocal minority, we are not their main demographic. The big spenders are the little Timmys with a core game buy then one or two big splurges at a birthday and/or Christmas. Esp. in this economic climate imagine all of the parents that are only being given a week's notice for something that is pretty much a compulsary update for mummy's little darlings fave game. I know I don't have £45 or thereabouts lying around.

Grimtuff wrote:The big spenders are the little timmys.

Grimtuff wrote:>The big spenders are the little Timmy's parents

Fixed.

Grimtuff wrote:

Praxiss wrote:With the amount of rumours (some of them presumably true) flying around, and the anticipation so high already, i don't think GW needs to do any marketting.

I say again. What marketing? GW views the Internet crowd as a vocal minority, we are not their main demographic. The big spenders are the little Timmys with a core game buy then one or two big splurges at a birthday and/or Christmas. Esp. in this economic climate imagine all of the parents that are only being given a week's notice for something that is pretty much a compulsary update for mummy's little darlings fave game. I know I don't have £45 or thereabouts lying around.

I wonder how true that actually is though? Warseer has nearly 80k unique members, this by no means encompasses all of GW's audience its certainly a big chunk of it. I have a great deal of scepticism about the mythical 'little Timmy' and his massive spending power.

That doesn't mean that I think that GW have handled their marketing well by any means.

Praxiss wrote:If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Seems a little harsh to me.

It gives the like of SG more of a boost IMO, Termies still got their 5++ which was at least something. I've got some SG I've been holding off building to see if 6th allows pistol strength to be used in CC a la Pancake (Infernus Pistols, yum!) but even if that isn't true, if this pans out they could definitely become a regualr fixture for my lists..

skoffs wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:>The big spenders are the little Timmy's parents

Fixed.

I would have thought that was implied...

Obviously not.

If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Unless there's a FAQ that states that all weapons (and monstrous creatures) that 'ignore armour saves' are AP3, that would change almost nothing. Very few commonly used units in this game actually use power weapons.

Therion wrote:

If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Unless there's a FAQ that states that all weapons (and monstrous creatures) that 'ignore armour saves' are AP3, that would change almost nothing. Very few commonly used units in this game actually use power weapons.

Except all Grey Knights, Assault Terminators, DE Incubus, Sanguinary Guard...

Most dedicated assault units are either equipped with power weapons of some sort or their common unit builds arm them with them. Anything that is not explicity called a power weapon in normally referenced as "counts as a power weapon" which is the same thing to all intents and purposes.

The biggest clue to this being valid is in the Necron codex I think, where there is an item of wargear that's description simply says it is a power weapon, whereas the Warscythe, which, to all intents and purposes is a power weapon in 5th, explicity says "ignores armour saves" which is not the same thing in the context of this particular rumour.

azreal13 wrote: Anything that is not explicity called a power weapon in normally referenced as "counts as a power weapon" which is the same thing to all intents and purposes.

In 5th edition it is, will this be the same in 6th? I have my doubts.

Palindrome wrote:

azreal13 wrote: Anything that is not explicity called a power weapon in normally referenced as "counts as a power weapon" which is the same thing to all intents and purposes.

In 5th edition it is, will this be the same in 6th? I have my doubts.

Really?

I don't. The definition of power weapon is set in the BRB, which the codices then refer back to. They may change the definition of what a power weapon does, but those units that are armed with weapons that "count as" power weapons will still carry weapons that count as power weapons, it will just be their game effect that will change.

azreal13 wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

azreal13 wrote: Anything that is not explicity called a power weapon in normally referenced as "counts as a power weapon" which is the same thing to all intents and purposes.

In 5th edition it is, will this be the same in 6th? I have my doubts.

Really?

I don't. The definition of power weapon is set in the BRB, which the codices then refer back to. They may change the definition of what a power weapon does, but those units that are armed with weapons that "count as" power weapons will still carry weapons that count as power weapons, it will just be their game effect that will change.

Arguing RAW for rumours of an as yet released BRB?

azreal13 wrote:

Therion wrote:

If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Unless there's a FAQ that states that all weapons (and monstrous creatures) that 'ignore armour saves' are AP3, that would change almost nothing. Very few commonly used units in this game actually use power weapons.

Except all Grey Knights, Assault Terminators, DE Incubus, Sanguinary Guard...

Grey Knights: Force Weapons
Assault Terminators: Thunderhammers, Lightning Claws

Under the current rulebooks These are all different from "power weapons", and there is no indication that this would change.

Chaos Terminators, Lych Guard, Triarch Praetorians (?), Howling Banshees, SM Captains/Sergeants.

Isn't a powerfist just a power weapon that doubles strength?


Also - back to y original post - if power weapons are AP3 then Termies get a save. Yes they get an invul now, but if they suddenly get a 2+ against power weapons instead of a 5+, that makes a massive difference. They woudl be nearly impervious to everything!

Praxiss wrote:
Isn't a powerfist just a power weapon that doubles strength?

Nope, its a powerfist. This rule appeared in the 'leaked' rules which also specifically stated that only actual power weapons got the parry save, anything that "counted as a power weapon" didn't get it. If the parry save is real I strongly suspect that only something specifically called a power weapon in the unit entry will get the 5+ save.

There are conflicting rumours about the AP of power weapons, I think that they will stay as they are.

Praxiss wrote:Chaos Terminators, Lych Guard, Triarch Praetorians (?), Howling Banshees, SM Captains/Sergeants.

Isn't a powerfist just a power weapon that doubles strength?

But we are simply assuming that if Power Weapons get AP3, then all the special power weapons with special rules would also get AP3. There is no reason to think that a rule that would double strength wouldn't also have an effect on the AP value (if this rumor is even true). So they could very well include Power Weapons are AP 3, Power Fists are AP 2, Thunderhammers are AP 1, or whatever.

Also - back to y original post - if power weapons are AP3 then Termies get a save. Yes they get an invul now, but if they suddenly get a 2+ against power weapons instead of a 5+, that makes a massive difference. They woudl be nearly impervious to everything!

Terminators would still be hurt by the same shooting that already hurts them. We don't know if pistol rules will change, so maybe there is something there that will have an effect in close combat. Since we don't know if this rule is even true, or what the other rules are going to be , it is a bit early to be in panic-mode about this.

d-usa wrote:

azreal13 wrote:

Therion wrote:

If power weapons are now AP3 wouldn't give Terminators (and other 2+ save models) a HUGE boost as they would now have a 2+ save against all attacks in CC?

Unless there's a FAQ that states that all weapons (and monstrous creatures) that 'ignore armour saves' are AP3, that would change almost nothing. Very few commonly used units in this game actually use power weapons.

Except all Grey Knights, Assault Terminators, DE Incubus, Sanguinary Guard...

Grey Knights: Force Weapons
Assault Terminators: Thunderhammers, Lightning Claws

Under the current rulebooks These are all different from "power weapons", and there is no indication that this would change.

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself properly, there are numerous weapons that are considered power weapons or count as power weapons (I don't have my BRB to hand, but I'm pretty sure force weapons are described as power weapons, and then the extra rules explained in their rules entry) and have extra rules in addition to this, such as all the example you list. I would argue that it would be most likely that these weapons will still be power weapons with extra rules under 6th, just that the actual ramifications of what consists of a power weapon may change.

It is equally possible that they could have their own individual rules in 6th, so, for instance, a power fist becomes a weapon that doubles the users strengh, strikes I1 and ignores armour saves, and at no point is referred to as a power weapon. The net effect is the same as in 5th, but the implications are slightly different (if this is true of course, but it keeps coming up in rumour threads and I think it makes sense) All IMO of course!

page 42 of the BRB defines what a power weapon is and then says: a lightning claw is a power weapon... same for powerfists and so also a thunderhammer.

page 50: force weapons have the same effect as power weapons (some wiggle room here?)


but ofcourse the definitions will likely change in the new rule book if this ap3 stuff is going to happen. I do hope they leave some 'non-power weapons' that deny armour saves alone though or my warscythes just got a lot less awesome

I just think that there is no point even getting worked up about a rumored rule in 6th edition that is being judged based on the way it is written in 5th edition.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Anecdotally the game seemed to suffer greatly from the intensely overpowered army books "designed for eighth" and eighth itself seemed to kind of push out the community that had cared about game balance and had been concerned about the direction balance had gone with recent army books. Whichever rumors you wish to believe go ahead and believe them, but I've never heard a single store owner or rumor state that fantasy is doing better after eighth and I've heard quite a few that state the opposite. Where there's smoke there is often fire.

I know another thing that often accompanies smoke; confirmation bias.

Altruizine wrote:
I know another thing that often accompanies smoke; confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, confirmation bias everywhere

Robbietobbie wrote:page 42 of the BRB defines what a power weapon is and then says: a lightning claw is a power weapon... same for powerfists and so also a thunderhammer.

page 50: force weapons have the same effect as power weapons (some wiggle room here?)


but ofcourse the definitions will likely change in the new rule book if this ap3 stuff is going to happen. I do hope they leave some 'non-power weapons' that deny armour saves alone though or my warscythes just got a lot less awesome

Such definitions are easy to change in the 6th ed BRB it is likely that the weapons where codexes refer to the BRB for the rules such as Power Weapons, Powerfists, Lightning Claws etc will simply get unique listings with their own AP values. It's the codex weapons that state they are "power weapons" or work like "power weapons" that will potentially suffer from a blanket change to the core rules for Power Weapons such as them becoming AP 3 unless they are specifically FAQed otherwise unlike weapons that specifically state they ignore armour saves like how the Warscythe does that I think will be more the issue.

azreal13 wrote:The biggest clue to this being valid is in the Necron codex I think, where there is an item of wargear that's description simply says it is a power weapon, whereas the Warscythe, which, to all intents and purposes is a power weapon in 5th, explicity says "ignores armour saves" which is not the same thing in the context of this particular rumour.

There are actually two examples of each type in the Necron Codex both the Hyperphase Swords and Rods Covenant are described as Power Weapons while the Warscythe and one of the SCs Weapons (an SC who has an ability to turn into a MC for all intents and purposes....) specifically state they ignore armour saves and make no mention of them being power weapons.

d-usa wrote:I just think that there is no point even getting worked up about a rumored rule in 6th edition that is being judged based on the way it is written in 5th edition.

This is Dakka! Of course there is... Without baseless speculation, we'd rapidly run out of thing to talk about.

Valete,

JohnS

I think a change of power weapons to ap 3 is a brilliant move. It tightens the gap between meltaguns and plasmaguns. Right now there is almost no reason to take plasmaguns, but if power weapons are ap 3 , then there is more an incentive to take plasmaguns.

Terminators would get a boost, but not become Gods. Army lists would need to adjust and take less melta and more plasma. There is still plenty of ap 2 weapons in the game to threaten terminators.

With power weapons ap 3, then standard terminators get a boost and become threats to armor and enemy terminators. GK terminators can still get thunder hammers which will be ap 2. Terminators will be threats to terminators and regular guys with boosted power weapons won't be the terminator killers they are today.


As for thie armor 14 giving a structure point, I like that to. IG lists have become armor 12 spam lists because the meltagun makes almost no distinction between armor 12 and armor 14. Now armor 14 becomes more of a threat and a viable choice. Not over the top ( battle cannons were never over the top).

I would like to see the rule read that each facing of armor 14 grants a structure point. So leman Russ's and battle wagons get 1 structure point and land raiders and monoliths get 3 structure points. This makes those big vehicles a threat. If they get 1 structure point, a melta vet squad can still take the vehicle out in one volley. With 3 structure points they can't.

Davylove21 wrote:

Altruizine wrote:
I know another thing that often accompanies smoke; confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, confirmation bias everywhere

And not a drop to drink!

Nitros14 wrote:Fantasy was dead around here in 7th, 8th brought it to life. Who knows obviously your experiences are very different. I certainly enjoy fantasy a lot more than 40k right now.

Rumours about commercial sales are just that. I'm sure people who hate 8th are all too willing to believe it's a commercial failure based on rumours.

Well, in opposition to this, 40k is not dead in 5th, but it could become dead in 6th.

Really quite interesting, this whole C&C weapons having AP is actually logical i can see a list being like:
enter ramdom guys fist AP-
close combat weapon: AP 6
choppa, claws and teeth (tyranids) chain swords AP 5
khrone axe, big choppa AP 4
power weapons AP 3
power fist/thunderhammers , rending AP 2
chain fists AP 1
with ignore armour saves probably being around AP 2 but if they are careless (it is GW =P ) they'll be AP 1 or every one will get the own status.

I do hope if these rumors are true, that the 30in range on tau pulse rifles gets alloted into the rapid fire business. That would make Firewarriors pretty nasty-though not as nasty as another person mentioned Ksons to be....

Mezmaron wrote:
Power weapons are ap3 but give a 5++ parry save in combat.
Preferred enemy gives re-rolls to hit with shooting and in combat, but not the re-rolling of 1s to wound.
[/i]

Um. No. Eff you, GW. All this does is buff all GK armies save the henchman spam ones, and make Draigowing an abomination unto the lord. The Nemesis swords already add +1 to the I save of a model with a save. So all PAGK now have a 4++ in CC.

And what does this do for my Wyches, eh? Oh yeah. Nothing. Worse than nothing. It screws them.

And now Tau get to take a 50pt army upgrade that they can, in total fluff rape not seen since Draigo, intentionally try to get it killed to twinlink their army. Not to mention they get no extra use from their longer range weapons than anyone else, but hey! At least Crisis Suits get a buff making them even MORE of a must include choice than they already were. 3 TL plasma shots at 24 inches once the Etherial dies? Great!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

timetowaste85 wrote:And I say good riddance to those people-I love 8th. Hate it if you want, I think it's far superior to 7th. Randal from Clerks said it best: "You won't be missed."

Maybe not to you, but they are to me. Fantasy is dead here. It doesn't matter if I love 8th or not. No one else is playing it, so I don't get to play.

Nagashek wrote:Um. No. Eff you, GW. All this does is buff all GK armies save the henchman spam ones, and make Draigowing an abomination unto the lord. The Nemesis swords already add +1 to the I save of a model with a save. So all PAGK now have a 4++ in CC.

And what does this do for my Wyches, eh? Oh yeah. Nothing. Worse than nothing. It screws them.

And now Tau get to take a 50pt army upgrade that they can, in total fluff rape not seen since Draigo, intentionally try to get it killed to twinlink their army. Not to mention they get no extra use from their longer range weapons than anyone else, but hey! At least Crisis Suits get a buff making them even MORE of a must include choice than they already were. 3 TL plasma shots at 24 inches once the Etherial dies? Great!

Of course if the rumor about errata coming out with the book is true then nemesis weapons might get changed to not necessarily be power weapons. Who knows. Same with the Ethereal piñata.

Also the thing about rapid fire could very well have been just lazy and the rule might say that they fire twice at full range, rather than 24". A lot of people forget about pulse rifles, Tau isn't exactly the most common army these days.

Nagashek wrote:Maybe not to you, but they are to me. Fantasy is dead here. It doesn't matter if I love 8th or not. No one else is playing it, so I don't get to play.

Everybody in my club is playing fantasy right now, it took me 3 weeks to get a game of 40k recently because everyone is bored with 5th but loves 8th. 6th can't come quick enough for me.