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 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

And one more toughness!

 Tomten wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Praetorians dont have 2 wound either do they have a invul save which wraiths got and wraiths can attack first.

The TPs are more resilient point for point against most of the weapons in the game. Whip Coils are nice, but don't protect the Wraiths from getting shot up before they reach CC, which is ultimately what your Dlord escort needs the most, bullet eating longevity. He does just fine once he gets to CC, Whip Coils or no Whip Coils (Plus, if you're running the Dlord with the TPs you can still run another unit of Wraiths with WC incase you absolutely need them...bottom line is the better unit to have your DLord attached to initially is the TPs).

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's are also fearless. It is their lack of any inv. save and the only character that can attach to the squad effectively is the D. Lord (which has no Inv. Save) that limits the TP. RC members can't join TP, they can't start the game in a Night Scythe, and they are too expensive to be used effectively(10 cost you 400 base). For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

And one more toughness!

Well, as far as i can see TP ain't so good as retinue for Dlord, lack of inv save and only 1 W imo makes them too fragile for units that DLord can take out with same number of wrights in cc with ease. However if can be TP combined with Oby... ghostwalk-->Rod-em-up-->finish off whatever left in cc with Oby , they could be an excellent unit to hunt down enemy HQs (That is ofc if after ghostwalk, Oby and hes unit can shoot and charge...not sure about that, codex says that it using rules for deep strike, didnt say it actally IS deep strike ). And add to that FC from Nemy

You can't charge after using the veil, it works just like Deepstrike but you can do it every turn. The rub with any VoD is hope you don't mishap and with Rod range at 6". Good luck landing in an optimal position because you are going to have to aim for a spot that is primed for a mishap.

Aww You got point here, forgot that ghostwalk is only accurate when placing near Nemy unless....I gief Nemy CCB not sure tho if it worth to risk placing Nemy so close enemy line ....Im stuck in here

CCB couldn't be much worse than they are now so it is pretty much a suicide surf board and is going to put you at over 300pts(or close to it, can't remember Zahndrekh's cost at the moment) to attempt that trick. Really is it worth it?

It's worth it at least once! I had it pulled on me and wasn't a huge fan as a marine player. After the 1 time though its pretty easy to avoid it. Frankly it's probably better used out of a night scythe in my experience.

As a new necron player though its one of those tricks I can't wait to use on unsuspecting opponents! Although I'm still a ways away from having enough points to make it happen.

Right now i have a lord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals, a ghost ark, 3 wraiths, and an anni barge, and near unlimited supplies of scarabs. In your opinions where should I go next? I'm thinking another barge, 3 more wraiths, and then just start filling up on more troops/crypteks.

You're right on. You really want access to 3 A Barges. Not that you'll use them every game, but you want the option.

Tesla destructors and mind shackles are what drew me to necrons stylistically so anni barges and scythes really appeal. I recognize the need for more troops too. I will eventually own scythes but cronair isn't really my thing.

Chancetragedy wrote:


Right now i have a lord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals, a ghost ark, 3 wraiths, and an anni barge, and near unlimited supplies of scarabs. In your opinions where should I go next? I'm thinking another barge, 3 more wraiths, and then just start filling up on more troops/crypteks.

Throw in a Doomscythe/Nightscythe or two and a Destroyer Lord to go with your Wraiths and you will be well on your way

 Brymm wrote:
You're right on. You really want access to 3 A Barges. Not that you'll use them every game, but you want the option.

This is by far the best tactical advice you can give for any Necron player. Annihilation barges are efficient for their cost, and satisfy several battlefield roles. I've really tried to make Doom Scythes work but 2 annihilation barges for the cost of one Doom Scythe are far better in 9/10 situations.

So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

So why isnt anyone using TP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TP die easily to AP 1,2 and 3 which Wraiths dont, and wraiths are also fearless.

TP's will get their cover save and RP against AP 1, 2, and 3, where as Wraiths will only get their 3++, and still die as most things that are AP 1, 2 and 3, are S8+.

If TPs have cover and a Res Orb (which they should) they are just as resilient/point against S8+ AP3- as Wraiths (assuming every other has a WC, so 40 pont average), if they are shrouded and or stealthed, they are more resilient then Wraiths. Against every other weapon profile in the game other then Plasma, the TPs come out ahead (for instance, it takes 18 Bolter hits to drop a TP and 12 Bolter hits to drop a Wraith.

For the same base cost as TP, you can get a full squad of Wraiths with 3 whip coils, and a D. Lord with 2+ save and MSS, which has more wounds, more attacks, and a better save. The only advantage TP have over Wraiths is that they can Resurrect.

That's only because of the advantage TPs have in having the option to go to 10. Base for base they average out to the same price as the Wraiths. The Wraiths are a little more punchier, but overall the TPs are more survivable against the greater variety of bullets. Ultimately, if your running with a DLord, you take the survivabliity over the punchyness because the DLord punches plenty hard on his own. Running by themselves Wraiths over TPs, however as a DLord escort TPs win hands down.

Chancetragedy wrote:
So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)
If you're talking anti-elite, the Death & Despair squad is your best bet (also better with Nightscythe)
Anti-mob? Trazyn and Tesla.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That's only because of the advantage TPs have in having the option to go to 10. Base for base they average out to the same price as the Wraiths. The Wraiths are a little more punchier, but overall the TPs are more survivable against the greater variety of bullets. Ultimately, if your running with a DLord, you take the survivabliity over the punchyness because the DLord punches plenty hard on his own. Running by themselves Wraiths over TPs, however as a DLord escort TPs win hands down.

Except for cost. And Wraiths cost 160pts less than 10 TP. That is the deciding factor and any decent opponent is also generally aware of how to get around RP and it isn't that difficult for allot of armies to put down 10 Necrons even T5 Necrons.

Except for cost. And Wraiths cost 160pts less than 10 TP. That is the deciding factor and any decent opponent is also generally aware of how to get around RP and it isn't that difficult for allot of armies to put down 10 Necrons even T5 Necrons.

Who says you have to bring 10? You could bring 6 TPs, or 8, or 5... How exactly is an option the deciding factor?

Fair point on getting around RP, but wit a DLord in the group, plus some Night Fighting to shoot through, its easier said then done. More often then not you'll get your rolls.

Not if your guys are down. Cover saves are not as good in 6th edition. TP are close up fighters, particularly if you go with the Rod versions, and there is exactly zero ways of giving the squad any sort of Inv save that can save TP, not to mention the fact that tons of armies are now running ridiculous amounts of weapons that ignore cover. The less TP models you put out the easier you are making it for your opponent to knock down all the TP and preventing RP. And regardless of if the D. Lord is standing, if all the TP are down they can't resurrect. Dark Eldar in particular with their Poison attacks and the amount they can dump on a squad are going to make quick work of TP.

You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

 skoffs wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
So what are some of the more aggressive style necron stuff. Not necessarily hth as I feel like ill have that covered through wraiths, scarabs, and mostly avoiding combat. I notice a lot of stuff is 24" range l, but really what wants to be up close and personal blowing stuff away?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)
If you're talking anti-elite, the Death & Despair squad is your best bet (also better with Nightscythe)
Anti-mob? Trazyn and Tesla.

What I mean is, I play space marines(salamanders) and I use a lot of stuff that wants to get up close and personal in firefights. So for my sallies I use a sternguard squad and a command squad and such. I was wondering what necron units want to be in that close range that do real good damage. Like tesla immortals seem to want to be up close, crypteks seem like a good idea with some of their stuff. Things like that. Ill tie up heavy CC monsters with scarabs and take the rest out with high volume of shots?

I understand I'm gonna have to be careful about CC with no ATSKNF and I2 and whatnot. But a lot of necron stuff seems like its less than 24" range so what stuff is more Killy?

 skoffs wrote:
If you're talking anti-tank, nothing's more effective at "up close" blowing-things-up than a Storm-tek (you just need to attach him to a unit of 5 Warriors in a Nightscythe)

I agree with the idea but feel the need for some follow through. IMO it is much better to make it a full squad of Gauss Immortals in the Night Scythe. With 5 Warriors it is just a suicide move. That might be OK for Death and Despair but I don't want to waste a scoring unit when I can beef it up and make it survivable.

...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

 Sigvatr wrote:
You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

Aren't TP I1, thanks to unwieldy.
Like Lychguards, TP are way over coasted for W1 I2 +3 no invu save. I find both weapon load outs to be pretty bad, the Rod of Covenant is clearly the best but it has a habit of killing too many models in the unit you wish to charge, leaving you out in the open. Plus its 6'' range makes it very unreliable shooting unit.

As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

All this talk about Lychguards, and no one has mentioned their weapons. Necron warscythes will win nearly any argument, hands down. Fighting infantry? The enemy doesn't get armor saves. Assaulting a vehicle? Armourbane. 5 Lychguards and an Overlord will make even a Baneblade look like a shredded tin can after a round or two.

Their biggest drawbacks are their (lack of) speed, and relatively high points cost. I'd rate them as my second favorite CC unit, after the wraith/DLord combo.

 skoffs wrote:
...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

Tesla Immortals aren't half bad in close range. Assault 1 and the tesla rule are good both the defensive and offensive end.

 sounddemon wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
...
I just gave you three examples of extremely killy close range Necron unit builds.
you even quoted them.

and no, Tesla Immortals don't usually want to be too close.
GAUSS wants to be close (so it can rapid fire)

Tesla Immortals aren't half bad in close range. Assault 1 and the tesla rule are good both the defensive and offensive end.

They may not be half bad but they aren't half good either on their own in CC. It is a far more practical strategy to keep them at range and take advantage of their tesla and if you do get assaulted Tesla will double hits on the 6's you need for overwatch.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Not if your guys are down. Cover saves are not as good in 6th edition. TP are close up fighters, particularly if you go with the Rod versions, and there is exactly zero ways of giving the squad any sort of Inv save that can save TP, not to mention the fact that tons of armies are now running ridiculous amounts of weapons that ignore cover. The less TP models you put out the easier you are making it for your opponent to knock down all the TP and preventing RP. And regardless of if the D. Lord is standing, if all the TP are down they can't resurrect. Dark Eldar in particular with their Poison attacks and the amount they can dump on a squad are going to make quick work of TP.

Not really, and Dark Eldar poison is the only primary weapon in the game where the Wraiths are superior. That's like saying "Why bring Wraiths, bolters will jus make short work of them."

You also forget about the Wraith's ability to ignore difficult terrain - it allows you to go anywhere anytime.

Wraiths are superior to TP due to mobilty, invul save and whip coils. People also tend to forget about the terrible I2 the TP bring. Wraiths also perform really well against non-cc termis while TP have 0 chance.

Yes, and TPs are superior to Wraiths because they are more resilient. Wraiths have I2 as well (and the WCs don't last forever) and I'm not sure I've seen a less accurate statement then your last one. Rod of Covenant TPs are designed to take out Terms.

Aren't TP I1, thanks to unwieldy.
Like Lychguards, TP are way over coasted for W1 I2 +3 no invu save. I find both weapon load outs to be pretty bad, the Rod of Covenant is clearly the best but it has a habit of killing too many models in the unit you wish to charge, leaving you out in the open. Plus its 6'' range makes it very unreliable shooting unit.

Yes, with RoC they are I1 or with VB/PC they are I2. RP replaces the Invulnerable save for all intents in purposes, superior to it against shooting while not as good against AP 3 or better weapons in assault.

It's very difficult to shoot yourself out of assault range with the TPs with 6" weapon.

Anyway, as I said before, they are the superior DLord escort, although alone I would still take Wraiths. Somewhat surprised more people haven't figured that out yet.

Interesting
do you use Praetorians offensively, like one would use Wraiths?
I'd be interested to see the math hammer on this (against TEQ, MEQ, etc.)

 skoffs wrote:
Interesting
do you use Praetorians offensively, like one would use Wraiths?
I'd be interested to see the math hammer on this (against TEQ, MEQ, etc.)

I use a rather large group (8 to 10) with VB/PC and generally run a group of 6 Wraiths (3 Whips) in front of them, and yeah, I use them pretty offensively. Because I have the daggers on the TPs they tend to go more for the Vehicles, trying to pull off multi-assaults when presented, and the Wraiths finish off the squishy bits. Of course, I'll combine assault things like Trygons to add the Whip Coils to the entropic Void Blades and make quick work of them.

I think a Rod group works a bit differently. I think you can get away with a smaller group (5 or 6) with the DLord and use them more as counter assault. At least that's how I would use them, however I've been using them with Pistol/Dagger so long its a much different mind set.

One thing I'll add is people tend to underestimate how potent those Particle Casters are once you have 8 or more of them, it's like having Jump Infantry hopping around with a couple short range Scatter Lasers.

Budikah wrote:
As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

Doesnt TPs have weapons that give them 1+ strengt?

 Tomten wrote:

Budikah wrote:
As a newer player I might be missing out on some of the alternate tactics with the TP and Lichguard and despite me wanting to field them based on lore and looks I just can't see what role they would fill better than the Wraiths.

Boons - They reanimate, larger squad, 1 toughness higher than Wraiths

Banes - Both have less attacks, less wounds, 1 less strength

Conclusion - It would seem that LG/TP offer a variable toughness in conjunction with a ResOrb whereas the Wraiths offer a heavier offensive option without any chance of returning.

I suppose I would consider using them as "blocker" or "screen" for other units whereas Wraiths I would always use as a "seek and destroy" unit. The ability for the Wraiths to potentially get a higher initiative with their Whip Coils is really what sets them apart for me.

Doesnt TPs have weapons that give them 1+ strengt?

Yes. +1 STR, AP2, Unwieldy