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Blackmoor, the issue with that response is that both players need to agree that they can finish the turns. Which if someone is slowplaying they won't

IF we play each other, and there is 15 min left and we are part way through turn 3, and I will win if we don't play another turn there is little incentive for me to say, sure I can finish another turn.

In general what solves this is making sure players are aware of the time, and penalties for slow playing.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I was second in the Invitational for Renman with DA/IG and third in the Open with the same army. You don't have to be playing newest codexes to compete.

That's pretty impressive! Any chance you could have snagged the top award in the Open if you had played the last 2 matches, or are those not factored in?

If you look at torrent of fire in the open the first number is the bracket number. So those would be the top 16 players going into day 2. Or the top 8 tables.

SO at the very least you had in that group (could be others not sure)
Hulk - IG/DA
Ben Mohlie- Necrons/Orks
Tony Kopach - Ig/Wolves
Nick Nanivati - Daemons/CSM
Werner Born- Neconrs/Tau
Bob Roda - Daemons

So 6/16 that were not just Tau and eldar (though one of those has Tau allies)


As for Top tables
Ben Mohlie was on the Top table in the last round


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 RiTides wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I was second in the Invitational for Renman with DA/IG and third in the Open with the same army. You don't have to be playing newest codexes to compete.

That's pretty impressive! Any chance you could have snagged the top award in the Open if you had played the last 2 matches, or are those not factored in?

They were not factored in, which is why rounds 7-8 were optional.

Breng77 wrote:They were not factored in, which is why rounds 7-8 were optional.

Really... for none of the awards? So they were basically "for fun" games on the last day, other than for determining top general in the top bracket (or top general for every bracket)?

I can see why folks opted not to play them if they were out of the running for the top overall / bracket spot, then...

Correct they were only factored in for Top general in each bracket.

Which is one reason why some guys skipped to go do other things, (or rest for some of the top invite players.). Because they are for fun if you are not in the running.

Essentially there are drops the last day every year, when you play 8+ games it happens. Local guys don't come back, guys that are driving home leave early, or people go sight seeing. IT is better that they know that people are going to drop, then need to scramble at the last minute to reseed.

I like that this year there was an option (though I did not make it this year) to play though, last year, it kind of sucked losing saturday night and knowing you were done.

Players have repeatedly asked for two things over the years:

1) Not to HAVE to play every round
2) Not to be DISALLOWED from playing every round

So we gave them that.

RiTides, the final comment about "I can see why" is a pointless one, because there are dramatically, and I do mean dramatically, more awards and prizes to play for at NOVA over the last 2 rounds that in literally any other format. Not only are you still eligible for pretty big lemonade raffle prizes, but there are up to 16 bracket champ awards up for grabs, plus the pride of where you ultimately finish within each bracket. This gives even people who got shellacked 0-4 in their first four games something meaningful and substantial to play for. We've heard suggestions already of also doing bracket ren men ... and sure, why not add that next year? I'm not opposed to taking the GT from 24 awards to 40. But ... did you really just suggest we're somehow dropping the ball on giving people stuff to play for?

In other words, it doesn't hold water that people dropped because of what they had to still play for, b/c if that's true you'd have had less drops than any other event. The NUMBER of prizes there are to play for has nothing to do with an event's quality or drop rates (IMO). (So, my above comment about formats is not a critique on any other or a praise of our own ... it's just a datapoint to abolish a half-brush comment about why drops happened).

Truth is when you give some people the opportunity to play in a shorter, more laid back 6-round GT format ... many of them (in this case, 36 of 227) will choose to take it, and neither they nor the format should be judged for that. It's generally called giving people what they want ... it cost no one games, it didn't screw up all the standings, and it allowed players to choose their own GT adventure without having to pay for a format that was in some way not quite what they wanted (i.e., too many games, not enough, etc.).


PS - Said in short, the drops at NOVA ... which were not an insane amount anyway, were by design. We responded to participant survey and gave less energetic players an opportunity to have a more relaxed event. It didn't hurt anyone in the standings, didn't take anything away from anyone, still left 180-some players rocking it Sunday morning in Round 7, and yada yada.

There's a little bit of an undertone of "DROPS HAPPENED WHAT WENT WRONG?!" For us, by literal design, drops happened ... things went right. We WANTED people to drop ... if they WANTED to drop. Instead of feeling pressured to play once they were out of the running for whatever prize path they wanted ... or once they wanted to take seminars on Sunday ... or see DC ... or drive home ... or shop vendors .. or watch top table games.

And yes, I'm a little sensitive here. The drops were actually a sign of format success. It's like an artist went out and said "I'm going to paint the Mona Lisa," and then got carped on for painting an excellent Mona Lisa.

Other things to consider

There are 32 Invitational players who can play 13 games.

People also play the Narative, and Trios events on top of the open.

So when there is other stuff going on....and you are out of the running, have the choice to relax is a nice one, as is having the choice to play on if that is what you want.

It really is the best solution. In most GTs there are many players that have "nothing to play for" after round 2 for instance...other than just to play. Which with say 5 games is no big deal (though I have seen players drop after one day of a GT numerous times), but with 8 games+ over 3 days...People just get tired, and rather than force themselves through some more games...they drop and the tourny is reseeded.


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Essentially what MVbrandt said. I'm hoping to make it back to NOVA next year, the system is great, and I hope it keeps improving as it has.

Drops were a great option.

There are a lot of rounds, and if you are out of it why keep playing? You have already played in at least 6 games, you need more?

Also there are a lot of people with long drives (5+ hours) and this gives them a head start (unlike last year when they were leaving after 6pm).

Sleeping in, and packing up and checking out can be done at a relaxed pace instead of rushing between rounds.

The format is fine. I agree that maybe pairings a few minutes earlier and the ability to do everything up to beginning of turn 1 helps (What I did at the Indy Open- Round starts at 1:30, pairings will be up at 1:15 and you can do all pregame mechanics). But everything else was great.

I dropped round 8 for a specific reason! To watch a 4 riptide list (justin cook) play against a necron list (ben Mohlie) in case I had to play the other 4 riptide list which was almost the same in the final 2 rounds of the invitational.

Turns out I did and watching the list gave me ideas. The 8th game would have done me nothing as I wasn't in the running for battle master. Some could say its the only reason I beat the list ......Not really but it gave me crucial information to make tactical decisions!

MVBrandt, I really can't see where you got your response from my quote:

 RiTides wrote:
I can see why folks opted not to play them if they were out of the running for the top overall / bracket spot, then...

From what I can tell, you wanted people to drop if they weren't really interested in playing the last day, and my saying "I can see why" wasn't some mask for an undercurrent of "Why don't you have more prizes!?" Your whole response to me seems centered on prizes... when honestly, I don't care much about prizes at a GT. It was a very pleasant surprise winning a theme one at AdeptiCon, but actually at Blobs Park the prizes for "top general of each army" and the etc got a bit tiring. So, by no means was I suggesting that you should add a "best overall" award for each bracket. I really think you're displacing onto my comment here!

Basically, if the last day does not count towards one's overall score, I can see why people chose not to play. As in Hulksmash's case, he was in the running for best overall, and didn't get penalized for not playing the last day, so it makes sense not to play the last day... since I assume he was all 40k'ed out!

For myself, being local, I'd probably skip playing the last day in this case, too.

So, "I can see why folks opted not to play" or saying "It makes sense that folks opted not to play" shouldn't be offensive and really shouldn't draw the response from you that it did.

Regarding scheduling, having the prizes after these optional games seems like a bit of a scheduling issue for folks who could otherwise benefit from not playing them (i.e. if they need to get started driving early)... I'm not sure what the solution to that is, if you didn't want to give out all the prizes that were already determined (i.e. not top general) first.

But to sum it all up, you're either open to feedback or not, and going off on a rather innocent comment like that isn't really giving off a strong "open to feedback" vibe! I have no problem with your making the last day's games optional, and given my schedule in general I would likely opt out of those games, too (unless I was in the running for best general, of course). That's why I said "I can see why" people opted not to play them. No offense intended, and honestly, none should be taken by a comment like that . It is a very fair statement, and heck, maybe other GTs will follow suit...

------------

Edit: I'd also just like to add that when I said "Really?" in my post, it was genuine surprise. I had been puzzling over how Hulk was listed with two F's for his final games but could have placed so high in the overall standings (third overall!). It's hard to convey tone over the internet... but believe me when I say, I don't think my intended tone was anywhere in the ballpark of what you read it as . I'm a fan of you, and this event, and this was the first I'd heard of optional games on the final day of a GT. It's interesting, and I was asking about it genuinely... nothing more!

As someone who dropped round 7/8 I gotta say I LOVED the choice. I went 3-1 into the 3rd bracket then get shellacked in my first 2 games. So instead of getting up early and getting my face beat in for 2 more rounds potentially leaving a sour taste, I dropped and enjoyed my morning socializing and watching games then left for my almost 10 hour drive.

With the time for games exception, which only came into play in 1 of my games. And the 1 torrent of fire delay. I thought the nova ran amazingly smooth. everyone for the most part was incredible. And things ran really smooth. This was a tournament experience I will be raving about and am already looking forward to returning to next year.

Kudos MVBrandt and the NOVA crew for putting on an amazing event!

Chancetragedy wrote:
As someone who dropped round 7/8 I gotta say I LOVED the choice. I went 3-1 into the 3rd bracket then get shellacked in my first 2 games. So instead of getting up early and getting my face beat in for 2 more rounds potentially leaving a sour taste, I dropped and enjoyed my morning socializing and watching games then left for my almost 10 hour drive.

Nice and I can see the benefit of it! But in this case, would it have made sense to have the non-best-general awards earlier in the event, if possible? Just curious since I can see a lot of folks wanting to get started on a drive, but then they're missing the awards ceremony / including some they had a shot at!

Great to hear such positive reviews from everyone this year, too . I think it has always been positive but people seem particularly stoked post-event this time around!

Yah it would have been nice to have the awards ceremony earlier for sure. I'd have probably been annoyed if I went 4-0 in my bracket only to have to wait for the invitational to finish up for the awards ceremony. But idk I think no matter what's done some people aren't going to be happy about something. I think the way the tournament was setup as a whole was a solid A.

I'm gonna have to think about things like that for the questionnaire because I'm not totally sure what i think could be changed without either A. Leaving some people out or B. being all inclusive but annoying those that are only eligible for raffle lemonade prizes.

 Blackmoor wrote:
A common thread talking to the players was that time for the games was a major issue.

My feedback is the same that they gave to Adepticon a few years ago...do not say not more turns! Adepticon now tells players to not start another turn if you can't finish it which is very different. I could have done 2 turns in 5 minutes with the amount of models that he had left, but we had to stop.

This impacted me in non-trivial ways. I think I had 2 games end naturally, another 2 that made it to turn 5 (without time to roll for a turn 6), and the other 4 ended on turn 4. And that's with me using every "play quickly" trick I know from years of tournament Tyranid play.*

I'm fairly certain that none of my opponents were trying for it, but in a few of the games, the "15 minutes - don't start another turn!" call came during their turn, at the bottom of the game turn. When one player knows that the game will end, and can now move accordingly, but the other player didn't...it makes for imbalanced outcomes.

*With the exception of my dice tray. I don't know why these are outright forbidden by the rules, but it honestly cost us at least 5 minutes in every game, because EVERY large dice roll has at least one or two cocked dice on terrain/models, plus sorting out misses takes longer on the larger spread that occurs on the table surface, collecting them up again, etc. And when 75% of your opponents are playing Tau or Eldar, you end up with a lot of large dice rolls.


This was my first NOVA, and I'm glad I went. I enjoyed hanging out with people I usually only see once a year at Adepticon. Mike & crew do a great job of organizing the event, keeping it running smoothly, and generally riding herd on a couple hundred wild gamers. That said, I don't think I'll return. Couple factors:
--First, basic philosophical difference, I think - I like the random factors that they have very carefully removed from the game, i.e. different terrain on different tables, plus player-placed objectives. Every game started feeling very much the same after a while; that was aided, no doubt, by the fact that I played 6/8 of my games on only 2 different tables (3 each on tables 24 & 17). (Because terrain setup is similar on each table, I know that's an acceptable scenario under the NOVA setup, but it got a little monotonous. And while terrain is similar, it's not to be confused for identical - the center piece, in particular, varied significantly - an essentially impassable 4" square tower piece on table 17, vs. a 10" wide LoS-blocking wall/ruin on table 25.)
--Second, it's more difficult to get to the NOVA for me than Adepticon or Wargamescon, without being more fun than either of those. It's about as difficult to get to as the ATC this year, but the ATC offers some really unique game theory, given the team nature of the event. Basically, it's a distance handicap - this would be a "can't miss" event if I lived east of the Mississippi.

ill echo blackmoors sentiments.
Having a 7 hour trip home it was great being able to drop my last game to get an early start on the ride home. i had played 10 games up to that point plus 2 open gaming ones and frankly i was wiped out.

so as much as it bummed me out to miss the end.. it was great having the option to get started home early

NOVA Open 2013 was first NOVA experience. I played in the GT as well as the trios tournament.

About the GT: Overall I really enjoyed this event. It was well organized and I got to play 8 great games. That being said there were a few things I did not like:
1. 2.5 hour rounds. In all of my games this simply was not enough time. I think that three hour rounds would really help.
2. For the most part, I found the missions to be overly complicated and very time consuming to score.
3. In general I liked the terrain set up, but during the standard terrain setup many of the line of sight blocking pieces of terrain in the center of the tables were U shaped, which made it impossible to shoot at a unit hiding in this terrain unless you were directly behind it. In my opinion choosing the side of the table that had access to the U shaped terrain gave an advantage to that player.

Again, I really enjoyed the GT and plan to attend again next year, I just wanted to give some feedback.

About the trios tournament:

This was a fun event, the problem for me was the timing. I know it is my own fault for signing up for it, but the 7:30PM end time of the GT and the 8:30PM start time of the trios meant that I did not really have time to relax and eat dinner, something that was a bigger deal than I thought it would be. I would have much preferred if the trios event had been on its own day. If it continues to be on the same days as the GT, I do not plan on attending again.

I look forward to next year.

The problem with having the open award ceremony early is a lot of the invitational players are in the open as well and more times then not an invitational player places in the open.

The same criticism could be flipped if the invitational played first then waited for the open to finish for the results. They had to be at different times. So not much can be done about the award ceremony imo. Unless they give awards while people are still playing and just hold the prizes for people still participating. Which kind of defeats the point of an award ceremony.

Or take a break and have no one playing during the award ceremony, say at lunch on Sunday, for all but the yet-to-be-decided awards.

 Tomb King wrote:
The problem with having the open award ceremony early is a lot of the invitational players are in the open as well and more times then not an invitational player places in the open.

The same criticism could be flipped if the invitational played first then waited for the open to finish for the results. They had to be at different times. So not much can be done about the award ceremony imo. Unless they give awards while people are still playing and just hold the prizes for people still participating. Which kind of defeats the point of an award ceremony.

The difference is that delaying the awards for the Invitational inconveniences almost no one, as those people are still active in the GT.

I think some schedule tweaking here is perfectly reasonable.

I, as well as a few other competitive GT players, who happen to be teachers would love a competitive event on labor day weekend that is LATE Friday for 1 game (if you make this game you can skip game 1 on Saturday morning which would be super early), followed by Saturday and Sunday of games. With Monday a huge holiday... would be great to have that day to drive home.

The first round results could wait to be entered until the second wave of people finished their game.... Since the first round is random pairing, i see no reason it would mess up the results all that much...

With the event needing us to be there Friday, which is often one of the first days of school which we can't take off... it makes it impossible for us to get there.

dlight wrote:
No. The top 9 tables were all some flavor of Tau\Eldar. http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/NOVA-Open-2013/leaderboard

You got 12th place. Commendable, but you couldn't have won the whole thing and you know it.

Not sure where the anger is coming from but I don't know that I couldn't have won the whole thing. My list held strong all weekend as was evident from my showing.

Bear in mind I was top 5-8 based on win track. I was 5-0 and lost game 6. That means there were only 4 players that were guaranteed ahead of me on that track. That's based on the win path column. And Kopach (another person not using Eldar, Tau, or Daemons) was in there with me.



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 frgsinwntr wrote:
I, as well as a few other competitive GT players, who happen to be teachers would love a competitive event on labor day weekend that is LATE Friday for 1 game (if you make this game you can skip game 1 on Saturday morning which would be super early), followed by Saturday and Sunday of games. With Monday a huge holiday... would be great to have that day to drive home.

The first round results could wait to be entered until the second wave of people finished their game.... Since the first round is random pairing, i see no reason it would mess up the results all that much...

With the event needing us to be there Friday, which is often one of the first days of school which we can't take off... it makes it impossible for us to get there.

Not a bad idea actually. Start the Invitational Thursday (play 2-3 games) and then finish it on Friday with the GT starting between 5-7pm.

Has the added benefit of only one 4 game day (Saturday) if you do three on Thursday.

As far as scheduling goes why not make the invitational Thursday night and all day Friday? Then have the gt go on Saturday and Sunday. This would give you as to's more time to bracket and allow only gt players to not have to take Friday off from work. In addition the invitational loses a lot of hype since most people already left by the time of its finale. By having it happen first people not playing in it will actually care about it. Lastly for those playing in both and knocked out of the open on Sunday but not the invitational they had to wait through 2 rounds to ply in something they actually had a shot in. Meaning they couldn't leave to check out dc or other events.

Just a thought, Nick

Isn't that how it ran maybe 2 years ago, the first bracket year. 4 games Saturday and 4 on Sunday

Agreed with the above sentiments - while NOVA is always a great event, I won't go into the positives too much (as we know them, I've went like 4 years in a row now), but the points I feel could be improved:

-I'd really like to see the events separated like Nick and others above mentioned, having the invitational at the beginning, the awards for it, and then the GT on Saturday/Sunday. It'd benefit a lot of folks who can't take off work, and provide more continuity for both events. If you're running two lists, having games from two different events separated by ~30 minutes. Also, using more of thursday for gaming for the invitational means a lighter schedule in general, as you wouldnt need to do 1 game, 4, 4, 4 (thursday, friday, saturday, sunday). You could instead do a bit lighter, less burn-out prone schedule of something like:

Thurdsay: 3 invitational
Friday: 2 invitational, 1 GT
Saturday: 3 GT (seeding occurs)
Sunday: Games 5,6, then people free to watch the finals of games 7-8

That's definitely not perfect, but just an illustration of somerthing I'd think might work a little better if it was possible. No day has more than 3 games, except sunday, and that's only for the people in the bracket finals (so not everyone) and it allows everyone else to watch the finals of their brackets, or other brackets, or continue playing games if they desire.

-Increased time limits to 3 hours, and pairings up at least 10 minutes before the round starts. Many round the pairings went up right when it started, and then the schedule was kept. Having pairings pushed to phones is awesome, and torrent of fire worked great (a few kinks, but for it's first roll out, it went impressively) but you still lose round time if pairings push at 1:58 and the round still begins at 2.

I had, out of my 9 games, 1 end naturally - against an Ork player, between us we had 300 models on the table, and 3 games end due to tabling. My other 5 ended on turn 4, and affected the outcome heavily. I timed my turns, I reminded my opponents, but often it's just not enough, especcially if you know them and don't want to get a judge involved. I'll admit I left a bit baffled as I've played in plenty of GTs and not had this be an issue, so not sure what solution to suggest other than a lighter schedule in general or more time.

And beyond being able to finish the games where players can't seem to make timely decisions ( :-P ), there's the added benefit of more relaxed games where you get to know your opponent rather than just hustling.

Just my .02 on it, was still a great time to see everyone and catch up like every year, cheers guys

Just adding another voice to the "2.5 hours did not seem like enough time" crowd.

Please do not get me wrong, I had an absolute blast at my first NOVA and will definitely attend again next year - but only one of my games ended due to random turn length.

I was in the bottom half of the GT most of the weekend, and definitely heard some... unique perspectives and "advice" as people were filling out their scoresheets. It felt like we were all filling out the sheet at the same time (after time was called), almost always one, if not both, of the tables next to me needed to borrow my pen. I saw one pair of gents roll at the end of the game to see if it would have ended "naturally" AFTER dice-down had been called, and use that to circle "ended due to random turn length." Even better, after the 6th game my opponent and I clearly heard one guy insist he and his opponent had to circle "ended due to random turn length" or they were going to be penalized for slow playing...

I am curious to see what would actually happen if a major event dropped to something like 1500 points.

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious to see what would actually happen if a major event dropped to something like 1500 points.

Just as a random continuation of that thought, when I was talking to Alex Harrison at some point over the course of the weekend he mentioned in UK they mainly play 1650 for GTs and that they found it doesn't really affect their lists but allows for games to be more timely and continue out to dice rolls.

Might be worth thinking about, I've never really toyed around with 1650 lists myself but if time is an issue and there's no wiggle room to expand rounds, the other main option is to cut back on points again. I don't think anybody missed playing 2000 points from last year.

I also will throw my support in with the group of other GT/Invitational players who would like to see the two events separated. I think Thursday night nobody would have had a problem getting in another game or two (maybe we could throw together a survey to find out for sure?) to avoid waking up at 6:30 am each day.

Again, this is me just being a little nitpicky / spitballing ideas because I had a blast. I think being able to drop the last two Open games was a good feature, as it was my only chance to catch up on a little sleep and also check out the awesome vendors.

 Hulksmash wrote:

dlight wrote:
No. The top 9 tables were all some flavor of Tau\Eldar. http://app.torrentoffire.com/#/tournament/NOVA-Open-2013/leaderboard

You got 12th place. Commendable, but you couldn't have won the whole thing and you know it.

Not sure where the anger is coming from but I don't know that I couldn't have won the whole thing. My list held strong all weekend as was evident from my showing.

Bear in mind I was top 5-8 based on win track. I was 5-0 and lost game 6. That means there were only 4 players that were guaranteed ahead of me on that track. That's based on the win path column. And Kopach (another person not using Eldar, Tau, or Daemons) was in there with me.



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 frgsinwntr wrote:
I, as well as a few other competitive GT players, who happen to be teachers would love a competitive event on labor day weekend that is LATE Friday for 1 game (if you make this game you can skip game 1 on Saturday morning which would be super early), followed by Saturday and Sunday of games. With Monday a huge holiday... would be great to have that day to drive home.

The first round results could wait to be entered until the second wave of people finished their game.... Since the first round is random pairing, i see no reason it would mess up the results all that much...

With the event needing us to be there Friday, which is often one of the first days of school which we can't take off... it makes it impossible for us to get there.

Not a bad idea actually. Start the Invitational Thursday (play 2-3 games) and then finish it on Friday with the GT starting between 5-7pm.

Has the added benefit of only one 4 game day (Saturday) if you do three on Thursday.

Perhaps my post came across the wrong way. I meant no disrespect to your personal skills.

I just don't think the 6th edition codexes are turning out to be balanced, and I don't think DA have the tools within the book to win an event like this.

What takes so long is those darn shooty armies with a million things to shoot. Anyone who played against a mediocre player with a leafblower or venomspam list in 5th knows what I'm talking about. Hahaha.

I should note that I did not attend this event. However, a close friend attended both the open and invite and he told me that the dramatically different methods of scoring each mission increased the amount of time spent pondering exactly what it was he needed to do in order to win.

 hippesthippo wrote:
What takes so long is those darn shooty armies with a million things to shoot. Anyone who played against a mediocre player with a leafblower or venomspam list in 5th knows what I'm talking about. Hahaha.

I should note that I did not attend this event. However, a close friend attended both the open and invite and he told me that the dramatically different methods of scoring each mission increased the amount of time spent pondering exactly what it was he needed to do in order to win.

You are half correct. All three of the top armies are time consuming armies.

Daemons: Usually psychic heavy list meaning a lot of rolling to get things done.
Eldar: For the most part move multiple times a turn. Movement phase, battle focus, and in some cases jump moves.
Tau: Same issue as above. People take time to move models and if your possibly moving some of those units 3 times a turn it can lengthen the game play.

Add this to a bunch of good players who are not utilizing pre-measuring to an extreme and you have yourself a significantly slower game then in 5th.