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Made in gb
Captain




London

 Ostrakon wrote:
ITT: People asking if GW is finally pricing people out of the hobby when if it was a release they were personally interested in they'd have no problems shelling out a few hundred bucks.



Nope. Huge chaos fan with all of the WFB/40K chaos books going back to realms of chaos. Not touching this release with a barge pole and didn't bother with the 40K one either.
   
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There's already a 'is GW pricing people out of the hobby thread...' so lets leave that discussion there.

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Baluc over at Warseer wrote:Have read the book its amazing will give details once I get home.
(...)
So I'll start with the thing everyone is waiting to here.

50 Great weapon, Khorne Marauders with full command are 580 points, they do however retain their statline

Now on the more mundane things that have changed.

Mark of Khorne; frenzy
Mark of Tzeentch; +1 ward save
Mark of Slaanesh; Auto pass fear, terror and panic
Mark of Nugrle; Flat -1 to hit in close combat

Marks on a per model basis

Mutant regen is gone (except throgg), and troll vomit is no longer magical, same cost

Chaos ogres gain impact hits

Dragon ogres gain halberd option

Forsaken are basically the same, same point cost, with a chart of rollable USR, ranging from asf, poison, etc
MofK on Forsaken is hatred, MofS is Swiftstride

Eye of the gods are all stat increases, except for 12 which turns characters, and chosen champ into Daemon Prince, units gain stubburn

Valkia always gets +1 S when she rolls on eye of the gods

Sigvald always rolls +1 A on eotgs, and gained T5

Chaos warriors same statline

Warhounds true core

Chariots as normal true core

Hellcannon gains 5+ ward, everything else is the same

Chaos lord stays the same, mounts change a little manticore for example, and marks are somewhat cheaper, mundane gear drops in price

Chaos sorcerers, lores as rumoured, same statline

Daemon Princes!!!

A wait for it... Mazing.

Chaos lord statline, ws9, S6, 5+ ward, Magical attacks, Unbreakable , must take a mark Khorne is +1s on charge, Nurgle is -1 to hit, Slaanesh is armour piercing?, and Tzeentch is re-roll 1's on ward and channel attempts

New stuff:

Chimera, SofM stats with a 4+ armour, for X points gains regeneration, for Y points gains s4 flaming breath weapon, tail attack has rules d3 attacks that are +1 to hit in rear

Slaughterbrute is basically just a attack machine, bound uses are lord or hero ws, and opperates as normal (S7 or 6 can't rememeber exactly can check later, t6, 4+ armour) or can be unbound in which case its frenzied (which it can't lose), and Random movement 2d6, can buy 2 more s5 attacks

Hentical beast, less killy bound spell's effect is roll a d6, 1-5 are d6 T test + effect, 6 is whole unit + effect.

On Magic really great spells basically all made to turn the army into a killing machine, some of my favorites are 2 slaanesh spells 2 and 6 are hexes that give the unit ASL, and random movement d6, Treason is no inspiring presences or hold your ground, Phantasmagoria and Pavane, are both there. Nurgle has a lot of spells that are hexes and augments depending on who you use them on. Curse of the leper gives +d3 T to allies or -d3 to enemies. None are AoE if I recall correctly. Gateway on a 10+ for S is 3d6 hits, instead of 2d6

Skullcrushers get regular MC stats, Juggers have 3 attacks at s6 on the charge, Riders buy lances for 3 or EW for 5. Juggers have magical attacks and are only +2 to armour.

That's what I got from the top of my head, if people present questions I'll do my best to reply.

(...)
Juggers are T4, 3 wounds

Daemonswords is gone, Magic items are if I recall correctly, Hellfire sword, Sword of change, The nurgle mace, helm of many eyes is now armour, a slaanesh item that gives you an additional attack for every wound you cause (might be a gift actually), The chalice is pretty meh to be honest.

Eye of the gods is all stat increases +1 bs is 3, +1 attack, +1s, +1 I, etc. Chosen before game roll, get to roll 3d6 and remove on die.

Gifts are mostly pretty cheap, there is one where you trade your attacks for double strength, flaming +5 ward against flaming, poison + 5 ward against poison, scally skin, third eye is back but it doesn't steal spells, an item that gives you +1 spell and +1 to channel.

Oh glean magic, lore of tzeentch, your oppenent loses a wizard level, and a randomly determined spell, which you then gain.
So in other words, no tacticians need apply.
Run forward, bash heads....same as before, just more options to do it with.
Yawn.

To be fair thats what warriors of chaos is, they force the issue, the difficulty comes from stopping the enemy from making you sing to his tune. I found the book very characterful. The Norse horde can be played, just as well as the super elite. Most armies got a little cheaper because of command and Mark changes but strictly from a per model basis not much got cheaper, and a lot got more expensive. The sweet spot is going to be MMU style armies, which is similar to his Empire book.

War shrine is a bound spell, chariot with no impact hits, and doesn't take dangerous terrain or have swift stride

d3 units are given a roll on eotg.

Banner of rage is mofK only makes frenzy unlose able, if a character with the banner joins a unit they gain frenzy,I'm pretty sure blasted standard is also there can't recall all what it did to be honest.

There is a slaanesh banner or item that lets the unit roll 1d6 for Ld.

Oh giant is much cheaper, and mark of Slaanesh is +1 I
Can you expand on the eotg table some more please since its involved so much is it similar to csm one or is it same small table with few changes? Do marauders come with light armour as standard or do you buy it?

Its pretty much what I said so far, 2 is take a ld test if you pass your -1 Ld and stupid, fail and your a spawn or removed, Stubburn, as is LD, 12 is daemon prince, 7 is a re-roll for that turn, everything else is a permanent killing stat increase.

Marauders are same as now you pay for all their gear in addition, you start with a naked dude.

A unit of 3 skullcrushers w/ lances at under 250 points puts out 9 S 6 attacks, 9 S6 magical attacks and 3 S 5 magical attacks, have a 1+ armour save, and highly resistant to test or die spells, I'd say they are well costed, especially when compared against chaos knights.

Chaos knights stay the same, Command are normalized, and marks are per model, must buy EWs.

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Kroothawk wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
So wait, you think GW has already priced themselves out? Why can I go to my local shop and see many people with new CSM and DA armies, then?

Because they started with the starter set in September, half a year ago?


That's a good point for DA, but I'm not sure it applies to CSM. A lot of the starter set CSM models seem to be things that people aren't actually using.

Kroothawk wrote:And yes, I think with the last three months they started to price themselves completely out, esp. when in April the other prices are adjusted to the new release prices. Granted, they had falling sales in the last 5 years (barely compensated by price hikes), but this 30/50/100% price hike is the turning point I am sure. Trying to raise prices faster than you lose customers, is not a sustainable business strategy. Even a yes-company will finally have to deal with reality.


I honestly don't envision the huge price hike that you say will happen in April. I expect a moderate price hike on the things they can get away with (so characters, monsters, and some big vehicles), with core sets staying about the same. This IMO has been the secret to GW staying afloat despite raising prices-- they know that people will pay a high price for a model that they only have to have one of, especially if it looks really good, so they have high prices for characters and similar "centerpiece" kits.

On the other hand, basic troops units have historically stayed about the same or in fact gone down in price, albeit with some exceptions, most notably IG. This ensures that the cost to build the core of an army doesn't actually go up very much. In fact, here are the prices for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)

Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)

Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase, though new kit has options for special weapons and Nob)

Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)

Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

I am inclined to agree with Kingsley and Math on this one. Unfortunately I think at the same time larger kits are becoming less cost efficient, albiet bigger better and more detailed.

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In a hole in New Zealand with internet access

Its sad how the swarmy armies are the ones that had price hikes. Ig and nids suffered but almost every other faction was fine.

   
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Captain




London

Anyone know if a pure Khorne army is going to be a good in the new WoC book? The 7th book was pretty poor in that respect - just try building a Khorne CC based demon prince.

I think I'll just go back to 3rd edition and warbands. 25 years of RoC, so probably a good time to get back to it.
   
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Satellite of Love

I honestly don't envision the huge price hike that you say will happen in April.
That's only because the annual GW price increase occurs around June 1 every year, not in April. If there's anything you want now best to buy it before the end of May.

The new GW philosophy this past year has been to increase prices with every release from the earlier price point on comparable items. It's amazing and some of the pricing is absurd.

The most outrageous price increases last year were on some of the most popular items like Space Marine vehicles. Who knows what June 1 will bring this year. Another $8.25 increase on Land Raiders? That's how much they went up each of the past two years. The Stormraven went up $16.50 all in one go last year.

For those who may have missed it the re-boxed Chimera for Warriors of Chaos is going up slightly in price. In the US it's currently $41.25, it will be $45 in the new box with updated Chaos Warriors artwork.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/30 17:04:00


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Cross post much?

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Satellite of Love

Cross post much?


When there are two parallel discussions going on about the same topic in two different threads and the point is relevant to both, yes. Redundancy is a mainstay of gamer forums and this one is no exception. Actually, I don't post much at all thanks to how useless most of the comments are on here. Speaking of which...post useless comments much? Someone is obsessed with having a high post count it would seem.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/30 17:08:39


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Camas, WA

Perhaps the two parallel (and mildly off-topic) discussions in different threads don't need the same point posted. Take it to one of the many 'GW pricing' threads. Also, no need to get mean.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/30 17:21:22


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Mutant Regen is gone but they're the same price?? Nooooooo!

Aside from that, while a lot of it looks really neat there don't appear to be anything too drastic, which is a little underwhelming.

If I'm reading this correctly, marauders are actually going to be a bit more expensive? sounds odd.

Over 350 points of painted Trolls and Cyriss 
   
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 Ostrakon wrote:
Mutant Regen is gone but they're the same price?? Nooooooo!

Aside from that, while a lot of it looks really neat there don't appear to be anything too drastic, which is a little underwhelming.

If I'm reading this correctly, marauders are actually going to be a bit more expensive? sounds odd.


I wouldn't worry too much. Throgg still makes Trolls core, so most troll armys will remain intact. Surprised given most recent books didn't seem to have characters that did that anymore.

Marauders were horrendously underpriced. Given most standard core units (empire infantry and orc boyz) went up in costs by a point or two, it should not be a surprise. Assuming command for marauders is 10/10/10 for all three options. The 580 for 50 means a marauder with Mark of Khorne and Great Weapon is 11 pts. Would assume the mark and the weapon are 2 pts each. Marauders would be 7 pts. Still not bad for a WS 4 and I4 human.

One clarification from the poster on Warseer. There is a ward save buff for the war shrine. It is a +1 to ward save. So it is possible now to have a 2+ ward save on chosen. However the war shrine ability now affects D3 units, but is now a bound spell 4. This makes it a lot less reliable. Yes, you can 6 dice monkey it, but that means you are sacrificing magic dice for a random roll which can't be games as much as the current version. Also, with some of the new magic sounding really good, sacrificing magic dice might not be that appealing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/30 17:51:55


 
   
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DAMN this is some nice artwork http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=7400022

love the four horsemen reference

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The Warp



This makes me forgive the price of the Forsaken.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come up with a cogent argument that doesn't just attack your opponent but rather attacks the points he is making, and show some understanding of what those against the table are saying (it's not about 'Lol complaining about a random table in a game about dice'), or leave the damned thread.

 
   
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The War Shrine sounds really damn broken at first glance. Sure, it can be disspelled now, but it affecting W3 units is a massive boost.

And in the end, it sounds like WoC remain the uber-boring "Here, let me just shove my units forward!" army that used to be. Meh. Waiting for the digital version to have a look at it. "Digital". Yarrrrrrr.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 17:51:56


   
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The Warp

 Sigvatr wrote:
The War Shrine sounds really damn broken at first glance. Sure, it can be disspelled now, but it affecting W3 units is a massive boost.

And in the end, it sounds like WoC remain the uber-boring "Here, let me just shove my units forward!" army that used to be. Meh. Waiting for the digital version to have a look at it. "Digital". Yarrrrrrr.


But isn't that the whole point of being heavily armoured chaos vikings in fantasy? To march forward, and get into close combat.

....kinda like all close combat armies in this game....

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Come up with a cogent argument that doesn't just attack your opponent but rather attacks the points he is making, and show some understanding of what those against the table are saying (it's not about 'Lol complaining about a random table in a game about dice'), or leave the damned thread.

 
   
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Nuremberg

Yeah, Chaos have always been a simple brute force army in fantasy. It's a bit like complaining about elves being T3 or Dwarves being slow.

   
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But Dwarfs are slow

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 blood reaper wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
The War Shrine sounds really damn broken at first glance. Sure, it can be disspelled now, but it affecting W3 units is a massive boost.

And in the end, it sounds like WoC remain the uber-boring "Here, let me just shove my units forward!" army that used to be. Meh. Waiting for the digital version to have a look at it. "Digital". Yarrrrrrr.


But isn't that the whole point of being heavily armoured chaos vikings in fantasy? To march forward, and get into close combat.

....kinda like all close combat armies in this game....


Never said that it was the wrong idea, just saying that the army is incredibly boring to play.

   
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 blood reaper wrote:


This makes me forgive the price of the Forsaken.


very cool pic - of course they are all about to kill each other

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Ok, I've been a GW apologist for a long time. I have always given them the benefit of the doubt when it came to pricing and policies and such.

I think this WOC release has broken me though, I give in...GW is insane if they think they can charge these prices and continue to stay afloat.

Finally I am interested in starting a new army..WOC. I see throgg is available, and I can use my existing Ogres to help lessen the cost of making a brand new army. Throgg is $58!!! What is this..it's a single model on a 40mm base right? that's crazy....

I give in to everyone who I've argued with here..GW is insane. I'll probably buy the army book though cuz it looks awesome, other then that....I would have spent $600-800 building a whole WOC army if things were cheaper. I'm not spending $1000, $70 of that being one one 40mm model. GW needs to rethink things...insanity.

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Yeah, just saw that this morning. Pretty incrediblly cool bit o' art.

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Norwalk, Connecticut

Art yay, prices nay.


Come on fellas, get the picket signs and lets form a protest at GW. We now have our slogan.

I'm thinking I'll get the book...but as of right now, that's it. I have enough warriors at home, if I decide to try this out.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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timetowaste85 wrote:I'm thinking I'll get the book...but as of right now, that's it. I have enough warriors at home, if I decide to try this out.
Same position as me, so I just picked up the book & cards for now, with perhaps a mutalith or several chariots headed down the pipe ...
Ostrakon wrote:Mutant Regen is gone but they're the same price?? Nooooooo!
Naw, are cheaper with the option of ahw for a few more points. Glad to see Mutant Regen go for the grunt trolls - but Throgg still has it
Aside from that, while a lot of it looks really neat there don't appear to be anything too drastic, which is a little underwhelming.
Many many changes throughout the book, none of them too awfully huge, but many of them well deserved. Glad to see a commitment to Chaotic Rivalries return in the rules
Sigvatr wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Sigvatr wrote:
And in the end, it sounds like WoC remain the uber-boring "Here, let me just shove my units forward!" army that used to be. Meh. Waiting for the digital version to have a look at it. "Digital". Yarrrrrrr.


But isn't that the whole point of being heavily armoured chaos vikings in fantasy? To march forward, and get into close combat.

....kinda like all close combat armies in this game....


Never said that it was the wrong idea, just saying that the army is incredibly boring to play.
Warriors do indeed remain the Heavily Armored Close Combat Infantry with Monstrous & Magical Support army, a role they fill quite well. As far as them continuing to be boring to play, I'll just be happy if they're no longer boring to build lists for. The last WoC book ended up creating the same 2-3 WAAC lists, but the new one at least appears to offer so many options (+ some restrictions on mark combinations?!?) that I hope to see a wealth of chaotic flavors hit the table.

Editorial Comment: Enjoy your time in hell, Divine Greatness Chosenstar

- Salvage

CORUSCATING III: AOS TIZZ REPORTS 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Norwalk, Connecticut

So...Chosen are now tits-useless? Glad I only owned ten.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


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Made in us
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

Pish tosh, were chosen useful to you before? Because they're virtually identical: W6 warriors that get to roll on the Eye but cost a few points more. The changes that matter are the Eye and how it's manipulated ...

EDIT - Actually another huge reason Chosenstar is dead is the way warshrines work. Only units with the rule 'Eye of the Gods' benefit from its 'Giver of Glory' spell (yep, it's not an auto ability any longer), and from what I can tell only characters and unit champions have the rule. So while the chosen unit gets its starting game buff (which unless I'm mistaken can't be manipulated beyond the chosen's extra D6 thing), it's only their champ that benefits from shrine buffs. Curious.

- Salvage

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/03 02:20:41


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Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

almostreal wrote:
Ok, I've been a GW apologist for a long time. I have always given them the benefit of the doubt when it came to pricing and policies and such.

I think this WOC release has broken me though, I give in...GW is insane if they think they can charge these prices and continue to stay afloat.

Finally I am interested in starting a new army..WOC. I see throgg is available, and I can use my existing Ogres to help lessen the cost of making a brand new army. Throgg is $58!!! What is this..it's a single model on a 40mm base right? that's crazy....

I give in to everyone who I've argued with here..GW is insane. I'll probably buy the army book though cuz it looks awesome, other then that....I would have spent $600-800 building a whole WOC army if things were cheaper. I'm not spending $1000, $70 of that being one one 40mm model. GW needs to rethink things...insanity.


Welcome to the dark side.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos





Australia

Instead of all this obsessive crying over prices, must don't buy any products, and instead paint the models you have to the best quality possible. Remember this is a hobby. It's not a computer game, were if you wanna start again "new army" you press new game.

The best way to affect GW is by not buying there products if you think they are to expensive, instead of the obsessive bitching.

/rant over.

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Australia

kronicpsycho wrote:
Instead of all this obsessive crying over prices, must don't buy any products, and instead paint the models you have to the best quality possible. Remember this is a hobby. It's not a computer game, were if you wanna start again "new army" you press new game.

The best way to affect GW is by not buying there products if you think they are to expensive, instead of the obsessive bitching.

/rant over.


That's all well and good but something you have to remember is that most of us that are bitching and whining are doing it not because we hate the hobby, but rather because we love it and think that <thing we were bitching about> is ruining it.
I love Warriors of chaos, I have wanted to do them for a while now and was excited about this release. Then it hit an I was immensely disappointed so now I am not buying anything, but I still feel like I should be allowed to express my disappointment.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
 
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