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 Vaktathi wrote:
Eh, depends, I go to my store specifically because it allows FW, they sometimes order and sell FW stuff as well, and I buy stuff there because they let me use my FW stuff that I'd normally buy elsewhere.

Before I moved form one side of the country to the other I use to play at a FLGS that was awesome and allowed us to us FW in the games. Heck he didn't even sell FW but decided to allow it since people wanted it. I loved playing their and the community they had.

The point I was trying to make, is that I think it's very reasonable for a FLGS to make the choice to not allow you to use stuff that they can't even sell you.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Crablez - allowing FW into our tournaments, and those I go to regularly, hasnt noticeably increased the headache and stress on a TOs head. Hell, almost none of the stress of running a tournament is making rules calls - the vast majority are sorted between players. Most of the stress is before the day, and before / during game one. After that mostly plain sailing

Yes, it is a litlte more prework, making sure you have an idea where the most recent rules are - however that is just part and parcel of being a TO.

I personally find having FW included in tournaments vastly increases my enjoyment in attending and running them, as frankly you see far more pretty models that way.

Oh. and as for the peopel saying they dont see people asking to use underpowered FW stuff? I run a twin CCW decimator, MoK, because it looks awesome. No other reason.

How many players? Where was it held?

We had toyed with the idea of allowing forgeworld (small tournament, 10 players) in the past and ran into another problem, it was being held in a FLGS that was concerned about people not having the actual books, which was a massive problem because everyone just pirates the FW books, and for obvious reasons only have print out sheets of the rules. I'm not condoning piracy, but that was the reality of the situation and in a lot of ways I can't fault somone who already owns the original taros campaign for not wanting to drop another 100$ to run a couple units. Basically requiring people have the current FW book required to run their unit or units was enough to remove FW from t he menu right from the get go. I like forgewolrd but it's not just a political problem its a logistical quagmire. I can understand an FLGS not wanting to risk losing their ability to sell GW stuff, it also is a pissoff for them because they sell codex and they can obviously see a slippery slope for their own bottom line and I don't blame them.

Your post is really confusing me.

How is allowing FW in a tournment risks a FLGS's losing their ability to sell GW stuff?

I also wish to point out even people who own the FW books, will make copies of their own book's army lists instead of bringing the whole book to a tournament. Most people don't want their fancy/expensive FW books getting beat up in the hustle and bustle of tournament play.

In all honesty I can tell you why most FLGS's probly don't allow FW. FLGS's usely don't let FW in their tournaments not because it's a "logistics nightmare", like you said. Most store owners don't want to allow it because they can't sell it to you... Tournaments help promote sales at the FLGS that hosts them. But if the tournament allows FW and starts to encourage people to but a product that the store owner isn't even able to sell you? Well that just defeated the purpose of WHY he hosted the tournament in the 1st place.

Potentially this is lost revenue from the gaming space not pulling it's weight and making enough money to pay for it's square footage and bringing in employees to support the events.

If you could walk into thows stores and buy FW off the self like any other GW product this wouldn't be a issue.

Buddy I have no idea what the store is actually risking by allowing people to bring print outs instead of requiring the ownership of the actual books, however they're hosting the tournament in their store. I could be a petulant child and end up having to rent expensive hotel space or I could play ball and acquiesce to their demands. You still have to bring the codex for your army, those money grubbing bastard flgs owners, it’s a conspiracy to make us pay for things in their store… Look whether their fear of GW cancelling their trade accounts is just a cover for their own apparently “malevolent” agenda I don't know, but it seems like a valid concern on their part because word spreads fast and anyone can write an e-mail.

It doesn't seem worth the headache or financial loss to try and rent a hall for a very small tournament, so there it is.

The point is, just requiring players to own the actual rulebook for their fw model was enough to kill the idea, which says something about how much pirating goes on in relation to running FW models and is a valid concern when it comes to the practicality of allowing FW in organized gaming.

Think of it like this, with all the ebook and ipad stuff, its a bit harder to verify whether one's codex and or supplement legit or not, some bring tablets, others prints, and hell even if its on a tablet or phone or laptop or whatever, no guarantee it isn't pirated. Right now, FW stuff is not digital, maybe it will be less of an issue if they go digital, but right now, physical books.

I'm not sure if I follow.

You thought I was bashing FLGS's that don't allow FW? Because I was trying to be neutral, and point out the finical reasons why a store would not wish to allow it.

Also I don't disagree with that you should own the book you want to play, but I don't see how that effects the TO. The TO doesn't need to own the book as long as the player has a valid copy of his own book. Alot of TO's i've knowen only owned the core book and a hand full of the more popular codexs. These never even owned all of the Codexs and Army Books.

Crable - over 100 players, Bristol, and 60 or so at their last campaign weekend. You were required to bring the actual book, no PDFs. Simple. Our tournaments were 40 or so. These were all gaming clubs, but Bristol have a strong affiliation to a gaming store

More enlightened shop owners realisencouraging people who have the money to buy FW are likely to have a reasonable amount of disposable income in general, and pretty models make tournaments prettier,

Fw models in a gw book... Surely not!! Cos fw isn't gw, escalation don't not exist, it's all imagination.

 Formosa wrote:
Fw models in a gw book... Surely not!! Cos fw isn't gw, escalation don't not exist, it's all imagination.

FW models in a GW book that says the options inside are to be treated no differently than allies or fortification rules.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Fw models in a gw book... Surely not!! Cos fw isn't gw, escalation don't not exist, it's all imagination.

FW models in a GW book that says the options inside are to be treated no differently than allies or fortification rules.

Shhhh someone may hear you talking about 2 totally separate companies like there not, they may create an elaborate facade over the space of a decade to try to stop others spending there money and having fun in an "illegal" and "overpowered" way, keep Mum

 Crablezworth wrote:
Buddy I own a gakload of forge world, I'm all for forge world, that doesn't change the reality that more and more content = more and more rules issues and in all honesty people can be as entitled as they want about their little toy men, it won't endear you to people with apprehensions and it also won't change the logistical realities that allowing forge world into organized play encompasses.

And you know how I get people to play against forge world? I don’t act like an entitled brat about it.

Please show me anywhere that I said forge world should be allowed into organized play, because I DIDN'T. All I discussed was the double standard people have towards those who have forge world models, plain and simple and how for some using forge world instantly equates to TFG status, while those same people ignore those who are clearly TFGs, but don't label them such because they don't use forge world. You are the one who keeps harping on the tournement inclusion angle, Buddy. If anyone is coming across as a brat it would be you in your pendantic response talking of acting entitled when you don't know me in the least. The funniest thing is that this double standard has ZERO impact on my life or my use of my forge world models because I play 100% of my games with a group of mature adults who love seeing new models and don't start whining about them when they see them and instead ask for the rules to digest and learn about them. Works wonders and I don't have to act like a brat either to get that response. Imagine that... Despite the fact I don't worry about the double standard myself doesn't mean I can't recognize it and talk about it, though.

Skriker

So having talked to the local GW store, and the GW company rep that visited last week the new books and super heavy models are legal for play and do not require prior permission for their use. Is there something in the books that make this stance unclear? I am asking because I am truly interested. The amount of debate I am seeing seems to indicate that something is unclear or is it that just alot of people don't like the rules?

its just like with FW,

GW says its legal (it is)and balanced for 40k(its not
)
players know better, so in competitive play, they are are out.

Ok, so who is making the decision that it is not allowable in competative play? The leagues at my store are saying that they are legal according to GW and that is that. The last con I attended said they would be treating them as allowable as soon as the books were out. So what is competative play?

Same as they always have done: the TO for each event decides what is and isnt allowed at their event.

The fact that a few years ago there was near universal no-FW, with that slowly changing, doesnt alter that the only people saying you cant use X in a tournament are TOs, as they are the people deciding to run the tournament.

 easysauce wrote:
its just like with FW,

GW says its legal (it is)and balanced for 40k(its not
)
players know better, so in competitive play, they are are out.

Seriously? This argument? Of all the arguments you will pull this nonsense out? Okay then.... So FW is unbalanced. Yeah, arguably it is weaker than the normal codex. Oh but GW books are totally balanced! Just like scraemerstar 2++ invulns rerollable..... oh and don't forget the tau buffmander triptide funzies! Oh, and didn't you just love the beginning of the edition when you couldn't expect to not see every army spamming vendettas, heldrakes, or the flying crousseant of necron flyer spam? Oh but fliers are so last year let's get up on our Seerstar, our Taudar, and did I forget to mention FMC spam and wraithserpent spam. Oh how could I?

I'm very sorry if it sounded rude, but seriously this is literally the worst argument out there. Many FW upgrades and models aren't worth it. Many are overpriced, many are balanced or overpowered. But, just like the codices, one or two broken things will always be there and always capable of being exploited. Is it good that such things exist? No, but GW (FW is GW even if they at least do beta tests) doesn't really care about balance all that much anyways.

There are plenty of over powered forgeworld units' but it's not really important. As you say, there are plenty of over powered units in regular 40k and bickering over which is the most op isn't really important.

Regardless, i look forward to the very same people who screamed until they were blue in the face that forgeworld was 100% legal, accept the same with escalation and allow their army to be smashed to peices by a titan. Every single time.

xruslanx wrote:
There are plenty of over powered forgeworld units' but it's not really important. As you say, there are plenty of over powered units in regular 40k and bickering over which is the most op isn't really important.

Regardless, i look forward to the very same people who screamed until they were blue in the face that forgeworld was 100% legal, accept the same with escalation and allow their army to be smashed to peices by a titan. Every single time.

The intelligent ones will accept that it's legal and, if they decide not to, won't play a game against a super heavy.

so they'd house-rule that no titans are allowed?

xruslanx wrote:
so they'd house-rule that no titans are allowed?

No. They'd just opt not to play that game if they didn't want to.
Just like you're free to do against a list with FW units.

xruslanx wrote:
so they'd house-rule that no titans are allowed?

That isnt a house rule. It is exercising your part of the social contract that is the game, and stating you do not wish to play a game against a titan for X reason.

The reason just isnt the same as the falsehood that is "FW isnt legal", the reason given to deny many people games with FW models.

rigeld2 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
so they'd house-rule that no titans are allowed?

No. They'd just opt not to play that game if they didn't want to.
Just like you're free to do against a list with FW units.

this is the correct answer. Have a jellybean.

Will meet your jellybean and offer a jelly baby. Seriously though that is the response I have always thought was the best one. I have used it more than once at my local store with the uber competative tourny players that spend all their time arguing rules and sucking the fun out of the game t the point where I just decide I am not going to play them anymore.

xruslanx wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
so they'd house-rule that no titans are allowed?

No. They'd just opt not to play that game if they didn't want to.
Just like you're free to do against a list with FW units.

this is the correct answer. Have a jellybean.

So ... what was your point? The people that "scream FW is 100% legal" are the ones advocating for that exact approach. Were you just trying to get a negative reaction out of someone?

xruslanx wrote:
There are plenty of over powered forgeworld units' but it's not really important. As you say, there are plenty of over powered units in regular 40k and bickering over which is the most op isn't really important.

Regardless, i look forward to the very same people who screamed until they were blue in the face that forgeworld was 100% legal, accept the same with escalation and allow their army to be smashed to peices by a titan. Every single time.

Or since the vast majority of FW is less powerful than normal options we will probably defeat titans in almost every game, especially against people who just buy one out of the blue and have no clue what they are doing. There is not a single FW model more powerful point for point that a wave serpent, Grimore or Tau tool kit commander.

How long is a Baneblade or a Revenant or an anything going to last to 20 Sterngard poding down, or a Guard firing line that takes 3-4 Russes for every Baneblade (not to mention however many ungodly 'bring it down' weapon teams)? The overpoweredness was already in the basic codex book., A standard Tau list or serpent spam will run roughshod over your typical FW carrying player.

One thing that will happen is that the bigger the model the quicker the game, and probably a larger uptick towards higher point games, that is a separate but important consideration.

rigeld2 wrote:
So ... what was your point? The people that "scream FW is 100% legal" are the ones advocating for that exact approach. Were you just trying to get a negative reaction out of someone?

Funny, but the Forge world crowd have never tried to push super heavies into the game at all, despite them being forge world, because that is a completely different line to cross. The escalation supplement is just stupid IMNSHO. If people want to include a super heavy in a game there is nothing stopping them from doing that when playing games with their regular crew and relying on the super heavy rules in the various apocalypse books from GW and FW. Everyone one agrees, then no harm no foul. Escalation pretty much forces everyone who plays in store type environments to do it which I don't like. My group doesn't have any problems with forge world, though the few overpowered 40k units are generally discouraged. We will also probably just ignore escalation except for the occaisional battle where people want to break out the super heavies because not everyone has a super heavy in their collection, nor can they afford one given the few options some armies have available. A lot of the imbalances people whined about from people using forge world were not really there, especially among the 40k units, with just a handful of actual offenders, most FW units would not just out right win games for you. Now GW comes along and pushes super heavies into ANY game of 40k regardless. Yay...thanks for that GW. Now the people who want/can spend the ludicrous amount of money for them really CAN dominate games in a local meta unless everyone does it. Escalation is far more significant an abuse to the power level of the game than forge world ever was.

Skriker

Played a game this Sunday with Escalation and Stronghold rules. Necron and Space Marines vs Chaos with the scenario of Bunker from Stronghold. Super heavies were used by Chaos and fortifications were used by Necron/Space Marines and I have to say the game went fine, nothing came across as broken or outragous. The store owner played Chaos and we all agreed that it is something we want to do again.

 Stormdrake wrote:
Played a game this Sunday with Escalation and Stronghold rules. Necron and Space Marines vs Chaos with the scenario of Bunker from Stronghold. Super heavies were used by Chaos and fortifications were used by Necron/Space Marines and I have to say the game went fine, nothing came across as broken or outragous. The store owner played Chaos and we all agreed that it is something we want to do again.

How many Titan Killers did you field?

And which super heavies - very important. Some of them are balanced to underpowered. Same with the fortifications.

Funny, but the Forge world crowd have never tried to push super heavies into the game at all, despite them being forge world, because that is a completely different line to cross. The escalation supplement is just stupid..... Now GW comes along and pushes super heavies into ANY game of 40k regardless

I do think that is really the most hilarious part. Almost none of the pro-FW people (myself included) have seriously wanted to bring FW superheavies in. Mostly we are talking about the normal vehicle-sized stuff like Hornets, Imperial Guard tanks, etc. And all the anti-FW people cry about how the war machine scale stuff is too overpowered, and cry "if GW wanted such OP Forgeworld stuff to be a part of the official game, they would!".

But then GW goes and makes the warmachine-scale stuff a legal part of the game.

Now people can trounce armies with Revenant Titans. But thanks the gods above noone has to play against a Repressor tank inmy SoB army. Oh, the horror!

Indeed, that's what continually amazes me. Everything people freaked out about when it came to Forgeworld (Titans, Superheavy tanks, Flyers, Gargantuan Creatures, etc) were never usable in "normal" games by FW rules (barring the flyers, which are now Codex units), and then GW goes and makes them so, and people still treat FW like it's some weird homebrew ruleset.

The cognitive dissonance in a group of the 40k playerbase that just irrationally avoids anything Forgeworld is really silly. They'll play against a Stompa or a rerollable 2+invul save deathstar, but won't let me play a DKoK list...

This is why we can't have nice things

I think it's because they aren't familiar with the rule set. Then again, that's why photocopiers exist.

Now that fw are in a gw book, I can't really see anymore reason that the anti fw crowd have to disallow it the last bastion of "gw isn't fw" is gone.

 lazarian wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
There are plenty of over powered forgeworld units' but it's not really important. As you say, there are plenty of over powered units in regular 40k and bickering over which is the most op isn't really important.

Regardless, i look forward to the very same people who screamed until they were blue in the face that forgeworld was 100% legal, accept the same with escalation and allow their army to be smashed to peices by a titan. Every single time.

Or since the vast majority of FW is less powerful than normal options we will probably defeat titans in almost every game, especially against people who just buy one out of the blue and have no clue what they are doing. There is not a single FW model more powerful point for point that a wave serpent, Grimore or Tau tool kit commander.

Not 100% accurate.
The reason the Tau toolkit is so good is only because of the riptide honestly, they just mesh in unintended (yet legal) way
As for the WS...Sabers out-OP it.
But out of the titanic number of FW models, that it.
And most others are considered outright subpar to their codex counterparts. many of them downright unplayable (did you SEE heavy gun drones? its like an inferior version of the already subpar stealth suit, but in HS instead of elite)

Rapiers are amazing too, but the 40k variant is guard only I think, the str9 Ord and tl makes it a great tank hunter for relatively cheap points, I don't think other armies have an artillery piece that compares well to be fair.