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You mean aside from the link to the Forgeworld website down the bottom of the page right next to the link to the Black Library website.

So my question to those saying that FW stuff isn't a real codex, before Adepta Sororitas did you just refuse to play against Sisters of battle because they didn't actually have a real, legally obtainable codex?

Actually what about the digital codices because those aren't technical available from Games Workshop and there is just as much mentioned on the website of Digital editions as there is about Forgeworld.

zoat wrote:
I'm constantly baffled about this discussion simply because the only time FW being "legal" or not is relevant when trying persuade someone to take part in a game the don't want to play.

It's relevant because many people default to "if GW says it's legal I'll play against it" as their policy for what they include in a normal game. So it's important to kill the absurd idea that FW is somehow not part of the game and prevent people from forming that bad assumption and being reluctant to play against it.

I think the strongest argument for being careful when using Forge World rules is that I believe many casual 40k players will not even know Forge World exists and even fewer are aware that they print their own rules. If you get into the hobby by buying the rule book and a codex or two there are no references to Forge World. Heck, even if you go to www.games-workshop.com there are no references to Forge World!

Actually there are. The core rulebook mentions FW (at the end, in the "hobby" section), including their rules, and the main website has a link to FW at the bottom and often features FW models and new releases on their blog.

And of course the same is true of codex rules. Most "casual" players probably aren't aware of the most overpowered codex-only lists or any of the "obvious" tactics that the tiny minority of players who read forums consider too basic to even talk about. And they certainly won't have the budget to get an optimized list even if they're aware of things like "using the default flamer and grenade launcher your squad came with is suicide". If you have the average forum member play against one of those "so casual I don't even know FW exists" people it's going to be a one-sided massacre because the two of them aren't really playing the same game.

Isn't that a bit strange if Forge World books are part of the core game?

Not really, because it's all about sales. FW isn't promoted as obviously because GW's core market is kids buying battleforces, while FW is aimed at "advanced" hobbyists who can handle that kind of model. The last thing GW wants to deal with is an angry parent who bought their kid a $200 model kit that is way beyond their skill level, or relatives buying christmas gifts without knowing the difference between a plastic tactical squad and a FW tactical squad. So the obvious entry points to the hobby promote "core" products, while more advanced products are fairly easy to find once you get into it a bit more.

You and your mates can always introduce a house-rule which allows you all to pick units from FW books which are not in their official codices.

 Barksdale wrote:
You and your mates can always introduce a house-rule which allows you all to pick units from FW books which are not in their official codices.

You mean a house rule that consists of "play the game according to the standard rules"? Isn't that kind of redundant?

I can't see why FW would even exist if it weren't supposed to be part of the game. They would be making their own game wouldn't they?

Mind you I'm a bit biased because I'd much rather have FW fliers than fat ugly hell turkeys so...

You mean aside from the link to the Forgeworld website down the bottom of the page right next to the link to the Black Library website.

I stand corrected. There are indeed a tiny link squeezed in between "legal" and "career". I still say it is not referenced though, since there is no way of knowing this is part of 40k unless you decide you are interested in something between "legal" and "career" and hit that link.

Actually there are. The core rulebook mentions FW (at the end, in the "hobby" section), including their rules

I'm sorry, I looked, but I still can't find the reference. Never mind though, I'm sure you are right!

... FW is aimed at "advanced" hobbyists...

I hope you don't feel misquoted, but this is how I feel exactly.

It's relevant because many people default to "if GW says it's legal I'll play against it" as their policy for what they include in a normal game. So it's important to kill the absurd idea that FW is somehow not part of the game and prevent people from forming that bad assumption and being reluctant to play against it.

Would you accept their argument if they said "I think your FW army is too good and playing against it is no fun, could you please bring one that only uses the standard IG codex?".

zoat wrote:
I stand corrected. There are indeed a tiny link squeezed in between "legal" and "career". I still say it is not referenced though, since there is no way of knowing this is part of 40k unless you decide you are interested in something between "legal" and "career" and hit that link.

There are also frequent mentions of FW on their blog, if anyone ever bothers to read it.

FW is aimed at "advanced" hobbyists...

I hope you don't feel misquoted, but this is how I feel exactly.

Just note that I'm talking about the model kits, not the rules. The rules are part of the game for everyone, but many of the model kits aren't really appropriate for the average kid with their first battleforce.

Would you accept their argument if they said "I think your FW army is too good and playing against it is no fun, could you please bring one that only uses the standard IG codex?".

No, because that would be a stupid argument. I could make a codex-only list that would be much more powerful than the average FW-included list I use, and I could easily reduce the power level of my average list without making it a codex-only list. Their argument would make about as much sense as asking someone to play Tau instead of C:SM because yellow space marines are too powerful. If it's really about power level and that isn't just the current "I hate FW" excuse then they shouldn't need to say anything beyond "your list is way better than mine and this won't be a fun game, can you scale it down a bit?".

The thing I still don't get about this discussion is: Why is it so important to convince other players to enter a game they state they don't want to play?


@Peregrine

I've seen some of your models here at dakka and you are obviously into the hobby part of 40k. I have no idea what kind of armies you play and assume you use FW models and rules simply because you like them and think they bring more fun to the table. If there was an implication otherwise i apologize.

There are also frequent mentions of FW on their blog, if anyone ever bothers to read it.

Agreed, and also in White Dwarf. I don't think that changes the "status" of Forge World rules though. A "forge world" entry between "apocalypse" and "expansions" in the warhammer 40k section with links to the books would.

zoat wrote:
The thing I still don't get about this discussion is: Why is it so important to convince other players to enter a game they state they don't want to play?

Because the opposite is currently, to an extent, happening. Those of us that want to play with ForgeWorld units aren't allowed, because it's either "no FW!" or "no game!".

Fragile wrote:

Forgeworld's products are designed to be used by the 40k market, but you do not find them in the 40k codices or rules, hence they are not 40k.

You find them in the 40k rules because they are 40k rules. The rule that everything for 40k must be in a codex or the core rulebook has been invented by certain players, not by GW.

Strange, my Warhammer 40k, 6th edition, which gives the rules to 40k, does not include FW. Nor do any Codices.

Every army in Warhammer 40k has its own Codex...

Show me the FW codex.

Supplements kinda shot that argument to pieces, set it on fire and threw it into a grinder. If supplements are OK, why is FW not?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Because the opposite is currently, to an extent, happening. Those of us that want to play with ForgeWorld units aren't allowed, because it's either "no FW!" or "no game!".

Yeah. I have the same problem with my homebrew tanks.

Of course Forgeworld isn't legal! She's only 15 you sicko!

The problem with saying Forge World isn't legal is that it's about the same as saying a supplement codex isn't legal. Whether you like Forge World or not, it's clearly stated that Forge World is indeed official.

Now, that's not to say you shouldn't be able to make a house rule where you don't allow Forge World. If that's really what you want to do, that's fine. The important part is to understand that it's legal and accept that fact.

I'm not gonna "get into" the who GW/FW thing beyond saying that there might be loopholes that are arguable but to all OUR intents and purposes, They are different aspects of the same machine.

I see FW as the "rich mans" addition to the hobby.
1. Models that have GW counterparts such as infantry, dreadnoughts and so forth have never had to have permission so long as the GW rules/stats were used (for example the krieg models using the rules out of the guard codex).
2. Most TOs do it this way because some FW rules and models can seriously unbalance a tournament where they guy with the most money just buys a titan and autowins. It is general practice for TOs to make this call but if they so desire, they don't have to.
3. In normal games most players simply don't care or can turn down the game against someone who has the FW stuff if they don't want to face it just as they could turn down a game against that odd smelly guy with the booger hanging out of his nose. If the stuff is reasonable (im not facing a titan), I'll take the game anyway just to see the cool stuff.

 tybg wrote:
The problem with saying Forge World isn't legal is that it's about the same as saying a supplement codex isn't legal. Whether you like Forge World or not, it's clearly stated that Forge World is indeed official.

Now, that's not to say you shouldn't be able to make a house rule where you don't allow Forge World. If that's really what you want to do, that's fine. The important part is to understand that it's legal and accept that fact.

The problem is that "legal" is not an appropriate term for a consensual game. You cannot legislate yourself into a game, that requires both parties to agree to make it happen.

Now, non-Forge World armies generally have an easier time getting that "consent" than armies including Forge World. It's just the way it is. Accept it.

The important part is to understand that by insisting on "legal" as a lever to bully yourself into games an opponent would not truly enjoy (though he may concede if you press the issue) means you're not only behaving like an donkey-cave, you're also hurting the diffusion of Forge World more broadly. If, on the other hand, you drop the "legal"-speak and make a positive case for Forge World not based on "legal", but on enrichment of the game, you contributing far more towards bringing the community to that place of "FW as common as Rhinos" that you want to see in the future.

"where they guy with the most money just buys a titan and autowins"

If you can show me a titan with a "Approved for 40K stamp" you might have something there, but you can't because we are talking about those Forge World that are approved for 40K , not Apocalypse...

Perhaps, you did not actually read my post. That is what I AM talking about. Is apocalypse not a 40k based game? I coulda swore I saw land raiders, russes and terminaters and so forth used in the last apocalypse game I played. As a matter of fact, I was one of the guys using russes.

You make my point for me and I appreciate that. As you supported my statement, many of the FW models are designed for use in "normal" games and many are not. As I said, the ones designed for use in "normal" games have never needed permission to be used. most TO will keep it at that.
If a TO wants to open it up and allow models (such as titans) that are not designed to be used in "normal" 40k games to be used in tournaments, than that is their decision to make. Likewise, it is you as a player to decide whether or not you want to face/or use models that are not designed for "normal" 40k games in a normal 40k game.

Sorry, but when did the legality of Forge World become a tactical issue?

A tactical issue? What do you mean? I know of at least a few (one for sure who could afford it) players at my local shop alone who would bring a titan to a tournament if they knew it would be allowed in order to get the easy win. Which is why I specifically differentiated models designed for normal games and those not.

For models designed for normal games, I see no tactical issues. the models are the same size, have the same stats having only cosmetic differences. that is why you have never had to have permission to use them in tournaments.

Edit: Never mind. I think I see what your getting at. you mean the thread is in the wrong forum section. My bad. lol

 Peregrine wrote:
Wrong again. It very clearly says "X is a {FOC slot} choice in Y codex".

Who says? FW says.. which means nothing. I can make a company and create a model and say this figure is fully 40k legal and is to be used at a HS choice in X codex. That does not mean that it is.

You're inventing the rule that every unit must be published in the original printing of a codex. GW disagrees with you, which is why my Tau codex has a Farsight supplement, various FW units added to it, and online FAQs/errata.

And look.. those supplement are produced by "Games Workshop". Still no mention from GW that FW is legal to use.

That doesn't change the fact that some things are considered to be part of the standard game as provided by GW. And FW rules are included in that standard game.

Show me the rules from GW that supports your claim. So far in this entire argument you have shown nothing other than your opinion.

FW employees are paid by GW, all of their sales go through GW, their books are copyrighted by GW, etc. Some accountant/lawyer may have decided to set it up as a subsidiary company for legal/tax reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that FW operates as a brand name within the "main" GW.

Incorrect, in almost all aspects. You are obviously not familiar with how businesses work.

Perhaps you can cite the underlined part ?
Whilst these rules should be considered official, in the name of good sportsmanship you should inform your opponent when using these Chapter Tactics as they may not be familiar with them.

So you have no citation? Nothing from Games Workshop? Anything? Concession accepted.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
You and your mates can always introduce a house-rule which allows you all to pick units from FW books which are not in their official codices.

You mean a house rule that consists of "play the game according to the standard rules"? Isn't that kind of redundant?

No I mean a house-rule which allows people use units which are not in the official codices, such as a FW unit.

My meta has FW strictly banned. I think for this to change, the prices would have to come down and the 40K core book would have to at least talk about them. Whether they really are "official" at the moment is irrelevant compared to these criteria.

Fragile wrote:


Forgeworld is not GW. No more than Dewalt is Black and Decker. They are both owned by a similar parent company but produce their own products. Forgeworld's products are designed to be used by the 40k market, but you do not find them in the 40k codices or rules, hence they are not 40k.

I have the 2013 FW catalogue in my hands right now.

Notice the "about forgworld" found in the inside cover?

It does not say FW is using copywritten material, it says "Forge World is part of Games Workshop based in Nottingham, England."

If they are not GW, then maybe you should contact G-dubs legal team fragile... because they are printing false information...

zoat wrote:
I'm constantly baffled about this discussion simply because the only time FW being "legal" or not is relevant when trying persuade someone to take part in a game the don't want to play. And why would anyone wan't to do that?

I totally agree with Nobody_Holme:

When you play a game of 40k, YOU get to decide what is ok and not. If you don't want to face Tau, Chaos Space Marines or units Forge World made up, there is no rule forcing you to play. Just pick another opponent.

When you enter a tournament, the organizers get to choose what rules to use, possibly even overriding the printed rules. If you don't like that you don't get to play.


To put some more fuel on the fire:
=========================

I think the strongest argument for being careful when using Forge World rules is that I believe many casual 40k players will not even know Forge World exists and even fewer are aware that they print their own rules. If you get into the hobby by buying the rule book and a codex or two there are no references to Forge World. Heck, even if you go to www.games-workshop.com there are no references to Forge World!

Isn't that a bit strange if Forge World books are part of the core game?

Actually, there''s a link to Forge World at the bottom of the GW website. Above and to the left of the Country Select thing. Between Black Library and Investor Relations. (Edit: Nevermind, someone beat me to it.)

That said, I agree that it's like anything else in 40k. If your opponent doesn't want to play against it, they don't have to. Just like they can refuse to play against your army because it's an army they don't like, or because it's painted pink with purple polkadots, or because they don't see the reason why their Blood Angels would fight your Flesh Tearers. They can refuse to play a game on any grounds they see fit, including what units are contained in your list. Whether that decision makes sense to you or me doesn't matter - it's their choice.

In a tournament, the organizer sets the rules, and anyone who disagrees strongly enough with those rules to cause a dispute doesn't have to participate in it.

 Peregrine wrote:


FW employees are paid by GW, all of their sales go through GW, their books are copyrighted by GW, etc. Some accountant/lawyer may have decided to set it up as a subsidiary company for legal/tax reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that FW operates as a brand name within the "main" GW.

There is no subsidiary company. The company is Games Workshop PLC and reports its financials publicly.

The separation of "Games Workshop" and "Forge World" does not exist on the business-side of things.

The distinction between "Games Workshop" and "Forge World" exist only for the customer, because they want their customers to see them as separate things/brands/products/whatever. If they wanted customers to see Forge World and Games Workshop as one and the same, they wouldn't bother with a separate brand.

Games Workshop
Citadel Miniatures
Forge World
Black Library

All are just brands of the same company.. All 3 websites even have the same company/VAT number at the bottom.

AFAIK Forgeworld models are just as legal as regular GW models.
After all, FW and GW are one and the same thing, aren't they?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

After all, FW and GW are one and the same thing, aren't they?

Just like Taco Bell, KFC and Pizza Hut are all the same thing (Yum! Brands).

Looking to play Warhammer 40K and having somebody deploy Forge World across the table is like ordering a peperroni pizza in a red-roofed pizza-joint and getting a bucket of Chicken with Guacamole.

Sure, it's the same company, and it's all "food stuff". Just not the flavour one was expecting.

As per page 108 of the 6th Edition rulebook of Warhammer 40,000, anything is legal as long as all participants agree upon it.

The default, recommended approach for army lists is official GW Codices, but the rulebook specifically mentions that players are free to expand or change their army lists with anything they'd like - this would include their own homebrewed units, GW supplemental rules, or FW Army Books. (see also the textbox on page 8: "The Spirit of the Game")

Tournaments and Events are likely to feature their own restrictions that all participants are required to respect, with a common approach being to follow the recommendations in the rulebook.

It is of note that this concerns only the rules - the models themselves should be safe to field anywhere, and are even allowed in those LGS and GW tournaments that explicitly ban FW army lists. One would simply have to field them using Codex rules. FW models are, to my knowledge, the only alternative to GW/Citadel models allowed in GW stores and events, whereas models from other companies would be banned (and thus restricted for play with your friends or local clubs).

What?

If you went to Pizza Hut and they have KFC (which does happen here in the US), you order your KFC and know its legit because it IS KFC.

FW have units that say 40k approved, as in approved by the company that makes 40k for use in standard 40k games.

You can choose not to play against anything for any reason, but its just your personal preference. FW is as legit as anything else GW makes.