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 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
It says models in Terminator Armour cannot take jump packs, but not vice versa.

|

I've addressed this statement several times. Several other people have addressed this. Repeatedly. Come up with a new argument, because it's old, tired, and addressed.

Nekooni, show us ANYTHING which expressly states that ONLY a scout may ever have a sniper rifle. Or anything which expressly states that the gear list gets reset when a unit upgrades.

There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

 Happyjew wrote:
There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

There is actually a rule posted that expressly forbids it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

There is actually a rule posted that expressly forbids it.

No there is a posted rule that prevents a model in terminator armor from taking a jump pack. I though we'd been over this.

could someone be so kind and post the entry regarding this woulf scout unit. and in addition the stuff with the jumppack / termi armour? thanks

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

There is actually a rule posted that expressly forbids it.

No there is a posted rule that prevents a model in terminator armor from taking a jump pack. I though we'd been over this.

happy, stop beating a tired old horse that's been addressed. repeatedly. You CAN take the jump pack and then take terminator armor. HOWEVER, since a jump pack is inherently incompatible with the terminator armor, the best you're going to get is an expensive cosmetic item. The functionality, due to the nature of the rules, will not transfer. But you can go ahead and pay for it if you want. Stop beating on the dead horse.

I can't for WGPL, but for Jump Pack/Terminator

(Using BA since codex is on hand, however, SM is almost identical)

 _ghost_ wrote:
could someone be so kind and post the entry regarding this woulf scout unit. and in addition the stuff with the jumppack / termi armour? thanks

Wolf scout rules:

WARGEAR:
• Scout armour (Wolf Scouts only)
• Power armour (Wolf Guard Pack Leader only)
• Boltgun
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
SPECIAL RULES:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Acute Senses
• Counter-attack
• Infiltrate (Wolf Scouts only)
• Move Through Cover (Wolf Scouts only)
• Scout (Wolf Scouts only)
OPTIONS:
• May include up to five additional Wolf Scouts…14 pts/model
• All Wolf Scouts in the unit may take camo cloaks…2 pts/model
• May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…10 pts
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged
Weapons lists.
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs…5 pts
• Any Wolf Scout may replace his boltgun with a:
- Space Marine shotgun or close combat weapon…free
- Sniper rifle…1 pt/model
• Up to two Wolf Scouts may replace their boltguns with a:
- Plasma pistol…15 pts/model
- Power weapon…15 pts/model
• One Wolf Scout may take one item from either the Heavy Weapons or Special
Weapons list.


Jump pack rule, with regards to terminator armor:

"Jump pack 3 , 4 , 5…15 pts"

"3 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount.
4 Note that these pieces of wargear are mutually exclusive. For example, a model riding a Space Marine bike may not also take a jump pack.
5 May not be taken by Iron Priests."

"May replace his power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword and frag and krak grenades with
Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…40 pts"

Zarius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

There is actually a rule posted that expressly forbids it.

No there is a posted rule that prevents a model in terminator armor from taking a jump pack. I though we'd been over this.

happy, stop beating a tired old horse that's been addressed. repeatedly. You CAN take the jump pack and then take terminator armor. HOWEVER, since a jump pack is inherently incompatible with the terminator armor, the best you're going to get is an expensive cosmetic item. The functionality, due to the nature of the rules, will not transfer. But you can go ahead and pay for it if you want. Stop beating on the dead horse.

Sure just as soon as you show permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle.

 Happyjew wrote:
I can't for WGPL, but for Jump Pack/Terminator

(Using BA since codex is on hand, however, SM is almost identical)

Spoiler:

May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of Baal lists
May replace power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, and frag and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon


Special Issue Wargear
Jump Pack (3,4,5)
Space Marine Bike (3,4)


3 Note that these pieces of wargear are mutually exclusive.
4 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour
5 May not be taken by models with a servo-arm or servo-harness

I never said you couldn't do it. I said that you're not going to get you USE the jet pack, because it's not compatible with the Terminator armor. The whole suit of armor is getting swapped out. You buy a new car, you can keep your old custom stereo. That doesn't say that the custom stereo will WORK in the new car, just that you can still have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's nothing that inherently states that a WGPL CAN'T use a sniper rifle, it's just not a NORMAL upgrade. There IS actually rules showing an incompatibility between terminator armor and a jump pack.

Zarius wrote:
I never said you couldn't do it. I said that you're not going to get you USE the jet pack, because it's not compatible with the Terminator armor. The whole suit of armor is getting swapped out. You buy a new car, you can keep your old custom stereo. That doesn't say that the custom stereo will WORK in the new car, just that you can still have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's nothing that inherently states that a WGPL CAN'T use a sniper rifle, it's just not a NORMAL upgrade. There IS actually rules showing an incompatibility between terminator armor and a jump pack.

Then please show me a rule that a model in terminator armor cannot use a jump pack. So far I've only seen that a model in terminator armor cannot take a jump pack.

*blinks slowly*

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount."

There's no reason to disallow a jump pack if the model can use it., especially since the base model in question CAN use the jump pack. You ever compare the size of a suit of Terminator armour to a suits of Power Armour? The average space marine is ALREADY 8~9 feet tall, out of armor. At an inch tall for the model, the thing becomes IMMENSE when you factor the size difference. The jump pack PHYSICALLY wouldn't work any more than a gorilla could ride a tricycle build for a human toddler. There's a MAJOR disparity in your correlations to the point of creating a logical fallacy.

I'm comparing swapping out the tires on a car, but keeping everything else, while you're talk about swapping out your old Pontiac for a brand new BMW, and wanting to keep your custom stereo and speaker setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isn't simply apples vs oranges, both are fruit. You're trying to compare apples to pine trees.

Zarius wrote:
*blinks slowly*

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount."

There's no reason to disallow a jump pack if the model can use it., especially since the base model in question CAN use the jump pack. You ever compare the size of a suit of Terminator armour to a suits of Power Armour? The average space marine is ALREADY 8~9 feet tall, out of armor. At an inch tall for the model, the thing becomes IMMENSE when you factor the size difference. The jump pack PHYSICALLY wouldn't work any more than a gorilla could ride a tricycle build for a human toddler. There's a MAJOR disparity in your correlations to the point of creating a logical fallacy.

I'm comparing swapping out the tires on a car, but keeping everything else, while you're talk about swapping out your old Pontiac for a brand new BMW, and wanting to keep your custom stereo and speaker setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isn't simply apples vs oranges, both are fruit. You're trying to compare apples to pine trees.

OK. I get it. We have established that a model in terminator armor cannot take a jump pack. You have claimed that the rules do not allow a model in terminator armor to use a jump pack. Back it up. With rules.

How, if you can't have a jet pack on a terminator, are you going to USE a jump pack on a terminator? You can't KEEP the jump pack (as anything but a cosmetic piece) when you swap the regular power armor out for the gigantic tub of steel that is the immense Terminator armor, so how do you intend to USE something that physically can not be equipped to the terminator armour?

Literally, it's impossible. This isn't even a matter of basic logistics, like swapping out the trigger guard for a larger one so that larger gloves can fit in it (many military snipers actually take the trigger guard off their rifles in the first place, because they don't pull it out unless they intend to kill). We're talking about putting tricycle wheels on a dump truck. By the way, anyone go the artistic skills to draw that? it would be awesome.

Zarius wrote:
How, if you can't have a jet pack on a terminator, are you going to USE a jump pack on a terminator? You can't KEEP the jump pack (as anything but a cosmetic piece) when you swap the regular power armor out for the gigantic tub of steel that is the immense Terminator armor, so how do you intend to USE something that physically can not be equipped to the terminator armour?

Literally, it's impossible. This isn't even a matter of basic logistics, like swapping out the trigger guard for a larger one so that larger gloves can fit in it (many military snipers actually take the trigger guard off their rifles in the first place, because they don't pull it out unless they intend to kill). We're talking about putting tricycle wheels on a dump truck. By the way, anyone go the artistic skills to draw that? it would be awesome.

Except nothing takes the jump pack away when i upgrade to terminator armor. Therefore I have a model in Terminator armor with a Jump pack, and no rule to disallow the use. Unless you have finally found one.

I mean, we have established that you have agreed that the terminator armor can't have a jump pack on it ("OK. I get it. We have established that a model in terminator armor cannot take a jump pack."), so the question becomes basically this:

If you take a jump pack and a suit of terminator armor, we would basically have to assume that your trooper leaves his jump pack in his quarters. How, on the battle field, would you use an item that's in your bedroom? I mean, can you use the television in your house while you're in another country?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Zarius wrote:
How, if you can't have a jet pack on a terminator, are you going to USE a jump pack on a terminator? You can't KEEP the jump pack (as anything but a cosmetic piece) when you swap the regular power armor out for the gigantic tub of steel that is the immense Terminator armor, so how do you intend to USE something that physically can not be equipped to the terminator armour?

Literally, it's impossible. This isn't even a matter of basic logistics, like swapping out the trigger guard for a larger one so that larger gloves can fit in it (many military snipers actually take the trigger guard off their rifles in the first place, because they don't pull it out unless they intend to kill). We're talking about putting tricycle wheels on a dump truck. By the way, anyone go the artistic skills to draw that? it would be awesome.

Except nothing takes the jump pack away when i upgrade to terminator armor. Therefore I have a model in Terminator armor with a Jump pack, and no rule to disallow the use. Unless you have finally found one.

The fact that the terminator armour physically can't take the jump pack does. It PHYSICALLY can't take a jump pack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, sure, with enough modeling putty and some super glue you can attach a jump pack to the physical model. But at that point, you might as well take Tau pulse rifles on the premise that you can physically glue them to the terminators hands.

Re-read what I wrote. I did not agree that terminator armor could not HAVE a jump pack. I agreed it could not TAKE a jump pack. Do you understand the difference?

 Happyjew wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. I did not agree that terminator armor could not HAVE a jump pack. I agreed it could not TAKE a jump pack. Do you understand the difference?

And to HAVE a jump pack on a suit of terminator armour, you have to TAKE it off of the suit of power armour. If you can't TAKE it while you HAVE terminator armor, how are you going to TAKE it off of the power armor that it was attached to in the first place?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Logical fallacy in your correlation still present.

Zarius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. I did not agree that terminator armor could not HAVE a jump pack. I agreed it could not TAKE a jump pack. Do you understand the difference?

And to HAVE a jump pack on a suit of terminator armour, you have to TAKE it off of the suit of power armour. If you can't TAKE it while you HAVE terminator armor, how are you going to TAKE it off of the power armor that it was attached to in the first place?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Logical fallacy in your correlation still present.

By that logic, in order for the WGPL to take off his Scout armor and put on Power armor, he would have to put down the sniper rifle. Now he needs permission to pick it back up. Furthermore, where in the rules does it say what you are claiming? You're denying me based on fluff. Not rules.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There isn't. Just like there isn't anything that expressly forbids a model with a Jump pack from having terminator armor.

There is actually a rule posted that expressly forbids it.

No there is a posted rule that prevents a model in terminator armor from taking a jump pack. I though we'd been over this.

Yes there is.

At the end of the build is the model in terminator amour? Yes?

Has that model also taken a Jump Pack? Yes?

There is a rules violation there.

Except that there ISN'T any kind of rule that directly prohibits a sniper rifle on a WGPL. There IS a rule directly prohibiting the attachment of a jump pack to terminator armour.

Your logical fallacy is basically saying that the scout, when he swaps out to Power armour, would magically forget how to shoot a sniper rifle. This as versus the mechanical limits of a jump pack designed for a suit of POWER ARMOUR. The terminator armor, BY IT SELF, probably weighs double what the power armour WITH space marine does. Once again, dump truck on tricycle wheels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isn't fluff. You're right, if taken in the correct order, the rules DO allow it. However, the logical fallacy that the jump pack would work on terminator armour because a scout in power armour wouldn't forget how to use his specialty gun is still just that. A logical fallacy.

Zarius wrote:
Except that there ISN'T any kind of rule that directly prohibits a sniper rifle on a WGPL. There IS a rule directly prohibiting the attachment of a jump pack to terminator armour.

Your logical fallacy is basically saying that the scout, when he swaps out to Power armour, would magically forget how to shoot a sniper rifle. This as versus the mechanical limits of a jump pack designed for a suit of POWER ARMOUR. The terminator armor, BY IT SELF, probably weighs double what the power armour WITH space marine does. Once again, dump truck on tricycle wheels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isn't fluff. You're right, if taken in the correct order, the rules DO allow it. However, the logical fallacy that the jump pack would work on terminator armour because a scout in power armour wouldn't forget how to use his specialty gun is still just that. A logical fallacy.

Sorry your whole argument is Fluff!

You are speaking of working power armour... scouts that forget( or don't ) how to use a sniper... last time i looked on my table i only had plastic models... perhaps at your home there is somthing going on like this?

Rule wise it makes no difference if we talk bout a illegal list build with jumppack n termi armour OR bout a WGPL with a sniper. In both cases we are able by using a specific order to make a illegal list build. in both cases we would not have broken any written rule. but we lack of permission to do that as well.

Oh, I'm sorry, apparently I was supposed to forget that the plastic figures are supposed to represent a mock-up of an army, for which there is what? 30+ years of written lore? I'm sorry, I forgot that I was supposed to forget.

This happens from time to time

Now more serriously:

You can't use fluff reasoning at such things like list building. not in a rule discussion. I can make up anything using fluff reasons to make clear why MY termi is able to use his pimped jump pack. ans so on.

There is a reason why we have rules for the table top and then we have written lore. Obviously you already know that there are differences between both. and i furter guess you know that the TT is a prety abstract way to repesent the armies described in the lore.

From the core rules manual:
"As the whole
unit must fire at the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can’t
damage the target vehicle, so we assume that the other members of the squad are
providing covering fire, bringing forward ammunition for heavy weapons or simply
keeping their heads down. If the target vehicle is in range, roll To Hit as normal."

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that I wasn't allowed to use the same types of explanations that GW does. Since I'm not allowed to explain using the explanation style that the game creators use in the main rule book, this isn't either a debate or a discussion.

Wonderfull. you proved what i just wrote bout 40k TT is a abstract game. Well done!

In fact you don't use the same way the creators use.

They define the rules n explain you the concept of the game. BY defining the rules. As you are not the creator you are not able to do that from the very same point of view. Impossible. Write your own game and you are able to do that.


Here we have a discussion bout RAW. that is what this part of dakka is for. And in RAW it is not the best way to lead a discussion by using extensive fluff reasoning.

That works great when making up house rules.. or scenarios or such. But it is just BS in a RAW discussion.

further 40K is a permissive ruleset. This is not written in the BRB. This is clearly shown the way the rules are written. Everything we can do in 40k is because we got the permission to do that. the BRB or in a Codex.

So the very moment someone starts to " show me where it is witten down that i am not allowed to do this!" its a good sign that this one is wrong. (There are some exceptions such as Flyers beeing not allowed to leave the table the very turn they entered it. but they are special cases. Special because without this restriction it would be absolutely legal to leave again.)

and btw:
you contradicted yourself by claiming you do not use fluff after you did use a fluff reasoning.

 _ghost_ wrote:

Zarius wrote:
Except that there ISN'T any kind of rule that directly prohibits a sniper rifle on a WGPL. There IS a rule directly prohibiting the attachment of a jump pack to terminator armour.

Your logical fallacy is basically saying that the scout, when he swaps out to Power armour, would magically forget how to shoot a sniper rifle. This as versus the mechanical limits of a jump pack designed for a suit of POWER ARMOUR. The terminator armor, BY IT SELF, probably weighs double what the power armour WITH space marine does. Once again, dump truck on tricycle wheels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isn't fluff. You're right, if taken in the correct order, the rules DO allow it. However, the logical fallacy that the jump pack would work on terminator armour because a scout in power armour wouldn't forget how to use his specialty gun is still just that. A logical fallacy.

Sorry your whole argument is Fluff!

You are speaking of working power armour... scouts that forget( or don't ) how to use a sniper... last time i looked on my table i only had plastic models... perhaps at your home there is somthing going on like this?

Spoiler:

Rule wise it makes no difference if we talk bout a illegal list build with jumppack n termi armour OR bout a WGPL with a sniper. In both cases we are able by using a specific order to make a illegal list build. in both cases we would not have broken any written rule. but we lack of permission to do that as well.

Has someone forgot about mutually eclusive rules?
"These are mutually exclusive"
No matter what order you take termi armour or a jump pack you are breaking the above rule by having both. So yes you are breaking written rules.
Whilst on the other hand WGPL and sniper rifles are not mutually exclusive as there is no rule that says so.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Has someone forgot about mutually eclusive rules?
"These are mutually exclusive"
No matter what order you take termi armour or a jump pack you are breaking the above rule by having both. So yes you are breaking written rules.
Whilst on the other hand WGPL and sniper rifles are not mutually exclusive as there is no rule that says so.

Lets take a look:
Both Scouts n the WGPL have a set wargear.
1. What happens the moment we upgrade a Scout to a WGPL?
This guy gets the stantard wargear unless he has options aviable to a WPGL. The sniper rifle is not a aviable weapon. period.


If i aply the logic of "order matters and there is no exclution" then i am free to give a SM a Jump pack n then give him a Terminator armoour. i have not violated any rule. What i can't do is the other way. Remember i am only applying the "order matters" logic here.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Has someone forgot about mutually eclusive rules?
"These are mutually exclusive"
No matter what order you take termi armour or a jump pack you are breaking the above rule by having both. So yes you are breaking written rules.
Whilst on the other hand WGPL and sniper rifles are not mutually exclusive as there is no rule that says so.

Mutually exclusive means that you can't combine options that BOTH have this annotation - as is explained in the example. In the Space Marine Codex the annotation exists only for Jump Packs and Space Marine Bike options. These cannot be combined. Terminator Armour does NOT have that annotation nor does it come with any limitations of its own when it comes to Bikes or Jump Packs.

--

There's a clear distinction between cases where GW obviously wants you to retain the options "pre-upgrade" and where it doesn't. Sergeants in Space Marine Squads usually have "A Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may". In other instances they use "Any model". If it's just "A veteran may" or "a Scout may", it's limited to that model. If you upgrade the model to something else, it's no longer that model.

Actually, when it comes to the term "mutually exclusive", you're all wrong (actually, Nekooni is mostly correct, and that would technically work in lieu of better information). Mutually exclusivity occurs when two sets of rules makes ALL outcomes impossible, such as a unit that has "reroll misses" firing on a unit that has "reroll enemy hits." In this case, the combination of the rules would make ALL outcomes of ANY roll a reroll, and thus exclude each other from operation.

Another example would be the previous theory of simultaneous acquisitions. Neither rule being checked until the end, at the same time, both the bike and the jump pack would be technically allowed. However, because each one disallows the other, the attempt to take BOTH would result in getting neither option, under that theory, but still paying the cost for both. Which is why there IS an order of acquisition, thus simply preventing taking the latter choice.

In the case of the terminator armor and the jump pack, you're TECHNICALLY correct. However, this is not the Department of Bureaucracy, and technically correct is like being technically insane... 98% of the population falls under the latter category. it boils down to logistics. It's generally assumed that, if you're going to give someone terminator armor, you're going to do it first, because it's the logical step so that you ARE choosing the right gear.

After that, it boils down to a matter of logistics. WHY would there be a rule prohibiting a terminator from taking a jump pack or bike? WHY is terminator armor listed in the units options instead of in the special gear?

By that same logic, though, if I replace the boltgun and bolt pistol on a Grey Hunter with a pair of plasma pistols (the grey hunter option says "replace bolt gun and/or bolt pistol with plasma pistol"), then promote him to WGPL (perfectly valid from my view), then upgrade him to terminator armor. Problem is that a terminator wouldn't be able to handle a pistol. it'd be like giving a cap gun from dollar tree to Andre the Giant. The gloves of the terminator armor would be physically too large.

The reason that Terminator armor is listed separately is that Terminator armor is meant to effectively reset a large part of the model. Each of the units that CAN have terminator armor trade in a large portion of their weapons, if not all of them, for the terminator gear and terminator base weapons.

Logistically, it would have to be assumed that the Terminator is MEANT to be a model reset.

On the other paw, the WGPL is in several units, several of them having different things that it starts with. It doesn't say that the WPGL starts with certain equipment in every listing, like the Terminator does. It doesn't say that you can start with a WGPL instead of <model>, for 10 points more. It says to upgrade the unit. And don't try to tell me that upgrading one or two things requires trade in of the whole object. I'm not buying a new car just to put snow chains on my tires.