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Zarius wrote:

On the other paw, the WGPL is in several units, several of them having different things that it starts with. It doesn't say that the WPGL starts with certain equipment in every listing, like the Terminator does. It doesn't say that you can start with a WGPL instead of <model>, for 10 points more. It says to upgrade the unit. And don't try to tell me that upgrading one or two things requires trade in of the whole object. I'm not buying a new car just to put snow chains on my tires.

In fact it does;

WARGEAR:
• Scout armour (Wolf Scouts only)
• Power armour (Wolf Guard Pack Leader only)
• Boltgun
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
SPECIAL RULES:
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Acute Senses
• Counter-attack
• Infiltrate (Wolf Scouts only)
• Move Through Cover (Wolf Scouts only)
• Scout (Wolf Scouts only)

this list names every wargear n special rules for both... the Scout and the WGPL and is clerly tells witch one belongs to only one of them andviceversa. sowe know how a bare WGPL is equipped

Actually, literally all that says is that the Scout armor only goes on scouts, and that the WGPL gets power armor. That doesn't list two completely different sets of gear. All that it directly states is that the WGPL would trade his scout armor for Power Armor, not that one isn't an upgrade, or "promotion", of the other.

you overlook:
• Boltgun
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades

this gear applies to both

And it is statet that a Scout gets upgraded to a WGPL. and a WGPL has a default set of wargear.

"• May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader…10 pts "

You just made two conflicting statements in two sentences. Your last sentence includes the word "upgrade", not "replace."

um .. where is the conflict?

i pointet to one part were its statet what gear a WGPL has on default. and i also quotet the part of the rule that a Scout gets upgraded to a WGPL

So... where is the contradiction? You have a Scout and you can upgrade it to a WGPL ( witch includes a default set of gear) Then the WGPL is able to get further stuff.

If it includes a default set of gear as automatic replacement, then why do terminators have a single set of gear, but the Codex expressly states which of the items that the WPGL (in other units' descriptions) need to remove from their gear list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, I see your point, and your logic would be sound if we didn't include other examples of model upgrades into the discussion.

i dont have the ccodex and so you should post other entries so that i am able to adress this too.

Absolutely. The precise nature of what it listed as the "swap" is different in each listing of Terminator armor, but it basically follows the same principal. Here's the listing for the Grey Hunters:

UNIT COMPOSITION:
5 Grey Hunters
WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Boltgun (Grey Hunter only)
• Bolt pistol
• Chainsword (Wolf Guard Pack Leader only)
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
SPECIAL RULES:
• Acute Senses
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Counter-attack
OPTIONS:
• May include up to five additional Grey Hunters…14 pts/model
• Any model may take a close combat weapon…2 pts/model
• One Grey Hunter may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with one of the following:
- Power weapon…15 pts
- Power fist…25 pts
• One Grey Hunter may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with a plasma pistol…15
pts
• For every five models in the unit, one Grey Hunter may take one item from the Special
Weapons list.
• One Grey Hunter per Detachment may take a wolf standard…25 pts
• May upgrade one Grey Hunter to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader…10 pts
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged
Weapons lists.
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs…5 pts
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may replace his power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag
and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…15 pts
- If Terminator armour is chosen, may only take items from the Terminator
Weapons list.
• The unit can select a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf as a Dedicated
Transport.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood Claws:

UNIT COMPOSITION:
5 Blood Claws
WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Chainsword
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
SPECIAL RULES:
• Acute Senses
• And They Shall Know No Fear
• Counter-attack
• Rage
OPTIONS:
• May include up to ten additional Blood Claws…12 pts/model
• One Blood Claw may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol…15 pts
• One Blood Claw may replace his chainsword with one of the following:
- Power weapon…15 pts
- Power fist…25 pts
• One Blood Claw may take one item from the Special Weapons list. If the squad
numbers fifteen models, one additional Blood Claw may take one item from the
Special Weapons list.
• May upgrade one Blood Claw to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader…10 pts
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged
Weapons lists.
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs…5 pts
• Wolf Guard Pack Leader may replace his power armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag
and krak grenades with Terminator armour, storm bolter and power weapon…15 pts
- If Terminator armour is chosen, may only take items from the Terminator
Weapons list.
• The unit can select a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Stormwolf as a Dedicated
Transport.

ah. well this is so obvious.

in each unit. we have the WGPL that is in every unit a upgrade.
and in every unit the WGPL has its default gear. as listed above the options.

the terminator armour is a further option. aviable to a WGPL. this does not contradict my statement. in fact all of this fits in quite well.
btw thx for posting the rules

The terminator is a separately named model, in and of itself. It has it's own name (Wolf Guard Terminator Leader), it has a unit that comprises nothing but it. It is as much a secondary upgrade option as WPGL is a primary upgrade option.

Zarius wrote:
The terminator is a separately named model, in and of itself. It has it's own name (Wolf Guard Terminator Leader), it has a unit that comprises nothing but it. It is as much a secondary upgrade option as WPGL is a primary upgrade option.

Not in what you posted. The only place a WGTL exists is in the Wolf Guard Terminator unit. In what you posted, the WGPL takes on the same Wargear and further options that the WGTL has, but that doesn't mean the model changes.

Where is the WGTL listed on the profile list? Where is this change to a new model mentioned in what you quoted for Grey Hunter Packs and Blood Claw Packs?

Difference between a Wolf Guard and a Wolf Guard terminator: better armour save, and an added invulnerability save. Difference between a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and a wolf Guard Terminator Leader: better armour save, and an added invulnerability save.

If you add terminator armor to a non-unique model, it is now it's Terminator variant, even if the name doesn't change. It alters the profile to match that of a terminator variety. Literally, simply lowering the save a notch and adding a save of Invulnerable (5+) makes it match the terminator variety.

Exactly the same principal as upgrading a Scout to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, except that an express change of name is listed in the upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NOW, that being said, WHY adding a suit of terminator armor doesn't increase the Str of the model but adding a dog between it's legs would I have no bloody clue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, NEITHER the option for terminator nor WGPL says it's a NEW model. That's been part of the point for the last 19 pages. NOWHERE does it say to replace, trade, or in any way swap a scout for a WGPL. it says to UPGRADE it. That means, since the manual was written in the UK, not the US (hence why it's terminator armour and not armor), to improve the existing model, not completely replace it. You want to argue semantics, I'm perfectly fine with that.

so your point is that a scout with sniper would still have the sniper when it becomes a WGPL ?

thats just wrong. upgrading a Scout to a WGPL also involves a package of wargear as stated and already quoted here.

The WGPL is rulewise also a different model with its very own profile found in the datasheet. The moment you upgrade a Scout it changes its profile and also its wargear to the default stuff a WGPL has. from then on the WGPL cannot take a sniper rifle. it has other options. period.

The terminator armor on the other side is a optional upgrade for a WGPL and there its clearly stated what stuff is changed. or better exchanged.

Zarius wrote:
Difference between a Wolf Guard and a Wolf Guard terminator: better armour save, and an added invulnerability save. Difference between a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and a wolf Guard Terminator Leader: better armour save, and an added invulnerability save.

If you add terminator armor to a non-unique model, it is now it's Terminator variant, even if the name doesn't change. It alters the profile to match that of a terminator variety. Literally, simply lowering the save a notch and adding a save of Invulnerable (5+) makes it match the terminator variety.

Exactly the same principal as upgrading a Scout to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader, except that an express change of name is listed in the upgrade.

Incorrect. There is a model and profile of Wolf Guard Terminator and Wolf Guard Terminator Leader that only exists within the Wolf Guard Terminator unit. You will find neither in any profile list for Wolf Guard units, Grey Hunter Packs, or Blood Claw Packs.

The WGPL can exchange equipment out and be a WGPL in Terminator Armour. Just like a Wolf Scout can swap his Boltguns for a Sniper Rifle to become a Wolf Scout with a Sniper Rifle. There is no profile listed as a Sniper Scout.

Also, NEITHER the option for terminator nor WGPL says it's a NEW model. That's been part of the point for the last 19 pages. NOWHERE does it say to replace, trade, or in any way swap a scout for a WGPL. it says to UPGRADE it. That means, since the manual was written in the UK, not the US (hence why it's terminator armour and not armor), to improve the existing model, not completely replace it. You want to argue semantics, I'm perfectly fine with that.

A Wolf Scout and Wolf Guard Pack Leader are represented as two different profiles on the unit profile list. The unit profile list is the "section (which) will show the profiles of any models the unit can include."

When a Wolf Scout is upgraded to a WGPL, his characteristics are changed from the Wolf Scout profile and model name to that of the Wolf Guard Pack Leader profile and name. Along with at upgrade comes an alteration of Wargear (Power Armour), and Special Rules access (Move Through Cover, etc), along with a change in Unit Type. In addition, the options available to that model alter as well.

The physical model will always be as you built it, but may need to be replaced because of Wargear changes such as Terminator Armour, Power Weapons, and the like.

But the model's name and profile will still be Wolf Guard Pack Leader, no matter what Wargear changes you make.

Charistoph, have YOU ever tried to move through tight spaces in heavy armor? Even in modern armor, it's annoyingly difficult and slow. Now increase the base person in the armor to 8ft, on average, and much bulkier armor. Yeah, I can see him loosing access to Move through Cover. As to loosing Scout and Infiltrate, again, you ever try using heavy armor? Yeah... an added 6 inch move? I could see loosing that, too. Fortunately, BOTH skills are "if any model in the unit has <perk>, all models do", so he doesn't ACTUALLY loose it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghost, every point you just made is also true of the Terminator armor, save the express specific separate listing in the data sheet. It comes with it's own options, and it's own gear list, along with a specific list of gear that the model looses when he takes the terminator armor. It also involves a drastic change to the model. By your logic, since the Meltabomb option is listed before the terminator armor, I should loose access to the meltabombs.

Zarius wrote:

Ghost, every point you just made is also true of the Terminator armor, save the express specific separate listing in the data sheet. It comes with it's own options, and it's own gear list, along with a specific list of gear that the model looses when he takes the terminator armor. It also involves a drastic change to the model. By your logic, since the Meltabomb option is listed before the terminator armor, I should loose access to the meltabombs.

Then you did not understand my logic.

I make a difference between a Scout and a WGPL . period.
So it makes no difference if we have a WGPL in power armor or a one in terminator armor. BOTH are still a WGPL.

So once again. Scouts have their default war gear . then thy have a number of options. ONE of this options upgrade one Scout to a WGPL.

this leads to a WGPL that has also its default war gear and its own options n aviablle upgrades... one of them is the terminator armor.

I'm not sure what this Terminator armour stuff is about - It's just a wargear option in all cases I know of, unless it comes as part of the deal of changing one model into another model.
Wolf Scouts and WGPL are different models. "any model" means either can have that option. "Wolf scouts" means only scouts, not WGPL. "WGPLs" means WGPLs, not Wolf Scouts.

Adding a bit of complexity: Scouts from the vanilla Codex:

3 different profiles:
Scout
Scout Sergeant
Veteran Scout Sergeant

Now there are differently worded options:

Any model may replace its boltgun with a sniper rifle. Applies to all three profiles.
One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following: Applies to Scouts only, you can't give a Missile Launcher to the Scout Sergeant or the Veteran Scout Sergeant.
The Scout Sergeant or Veteran Scout sergeant may choose any of the following options: Applies to both Sergeants.

Now, there's two more possible wordings for options (I obviously made up the actual option, just for demonstration purposes) I'd like to include:

The Scout Sergeant may choose to exchange his armour for Power Armour (3+). This option would only be available to the Scout Sergeant, not the Veteran.
The Veteran Scout Sergeant may choose to exchange his armour for Terminator Armour. this option would only be available to the Veteran Scout Sergeant, not the Scout Sergeant.

So with those examples we can clearly see how options need different wordings and how these wordings affect who may or may not take a weapon. If it was all the same, why would they bother? If the WGPL was supposed to have access to Sniper Rifles, they'd have used the same wording as was used in the vanilla Scout entry for Sniper Rifles. They didn't.

Zarius wrote:
Charistoph, have YOU ever tried to move through tight spaces in heavy armor? Even in modern armor, it's annoyingly difficult and slow. Now increase the base person in the armor to 8ft, on average, and much bulkier armor. Yeah, I can see him loosing access to Move through Cover. As to loosing Scout and Infiltrate, again, you ever try using heavy armor? Yeah... an added 6 inch move? I could see loosing that, too. Fortunately, BOTH skills are "if any model in the unit has <perk>, all models do", so he doesn't ACTUALLY loose it.

And what does that have to do in a rules clarity discussion?

As a side note, half of Move Through Cover won't affect the WGPL, so he needs to be aware of Dangerous Terrain.

Ghost, every point you just made is also true of the Terminator armor, save the express specific separate listing in the data sheet. It comes with it's own options, and it's own gear list, along with a specific list of gear that the model looses when he takes the terminator armor. It also involves a drastic change to the model. By your logic, since the Meltabomb option is listed before the terminator armor, I should loose access to the meltabombs.

Not quite. Adding Terminator Armour to a WGPL is not changing the model name and profile like upgrading a Wolf Scout to a WPGL. You are simply replacing one set of Wargear for another.

Fair enough though that would, again, reflect the much heavier and larger power armor, versus scout armor - which amounts to a breastplate. And the point was just that. The WGPL has much larger armor. There is a logical reason for him not to have the skills available to him. No matter how sneaky someone is, shove them in platemail and you'll always know exactly where they are.

nekooni wrote:
I'm not sure what this Terminator armour stuff is about - It's just a wargear option in all cases I know of, unless it comes as part of the deal of changing one model into another model.
Wolf Scouts and WGPL are different models. "any model" means either can have that option. "Wolf scouts" means only scouts, not WGPL. "WGPLs" means WGPLs, not Wolf Scouts.

Adding a bit of complexity: Scouts from the vanilla Codex:

3 different profiles:
Scout
Scout Sergeant
Veteran Scout Sergeant

Now there are differently worded options:

Any model may replace its boltgun with a sniper rifle. Applies to all three profiles.
One Scout may replace his boltgun with one of the following: Applies to Scouts only, you can't give a Missile Launcher to the Scout Sergeant or the Veteran Scout Sergeant.
The Scout Sergeant or Veteran Scout sergeant may choose any of the following options: Applies to both Sergeants.

Now, there's two more possible wordings for options (I obviously made up the actual option, just for demonstration purposes) I'd like to include:

The Scout Sergeant may choose to exchange his armour for Power Armour (3+). This option would only be available to the Scout Sergeant, not the Veteran.
The Veteran Scout Sergeant may choose to exchange his armour for Terminator Armour. this option would only be available to the Veteran Scout Sergeant, not the Scout Sergeant.

So with those examples we can clearly see how options need different wordings and how these wordings affect who may or may not take a weapon. If it was all the same, why would they bother? If the WGPL was supposed to have access to Sniper Rifles, they'd have used the same wording as was used in the vanilla Scout entry for Sniper Rifles. They didn't.

Unfortunately, the key difference between SW and vanilla is that vanilla squads start with four scouts and a sergeant, while SW starts with five scouts. If the Wolf Scouts option read "may be joined by a WGPL" or "may replace one Scout with a WGPL" then the options you note would operate more-or-less identically between the two codices, and we wouldn't have needed twenty pages of arguments on what exactly the word "upgrade" entailed when dealing with wargear and/or profile modifications.

Absent some sort of consensus on how to do that (which it is abundantly clear that we are not going to reach), this remains a FAQ item for GW, your tournament organizer, or you and your opponents to rule on.

That's pretty much the conclusion I'd already come to. At this point I've only been defending my position because I don't like faulty logic, and that's what I've been getting, for the most part. A lot of giving me one thing, but saying it means another. Thing is, I REALIZE that it's not written EXACTLY as intended, but the question basically boils down to "which way is intended."

I honestly don't know if GW rules writers are clever enough to actually have the army list entries all work as intended as well as all work the same. However I'm thinking if they did intend for a WGPL in a scout unit to be able to have a sniper rifle, then that means a Grey hunter can take a special weapon and a close combat weapon before he is upgraded to a WGPL. He then has two close combat weapons, a bolt pistol, and a boltgun. Lol. Now for some swaps! How about a WGPL with a power fist, plasma gun, storm shield and wolf claw. WOOO!

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

You will not find one here.

While there certainly isn't a consensus online it's pretty commonly judged as being a totally different model type unable to take any of the upgrades in any tournament using an FAQ.

While the scout example is pretty innocuous the precedent it sets for command squads that fuel deathstars with FnP can be kind of scary. (Stormshields on apothecaries etc.)

Creeperman wrote:
Unfortunately, the key difference between SW and vanilla is that vanilla squads start with four scouts and a sergeant, while SW starts with five scouts. If the Wolf Scouts option read "may be joined by a WGPL" or "may replace one Scout with a WGPL" then the options you note would operate more-or-less identically between the two codices, and we wouldn't have needed twenty pages of arguments on what exactly the word "upgrade" entailed when dealing with wargear and/or profile modifications.

I used the Vanilla Scouts - with added examples - just to demonstrate it. The Vanilla Codex has exactly(!) the same situation in other squads, but without the other option wordings - I'd have to add more "made up options".

But if you insist on an actual example: Command Squads.

Has three profiles: Apothecary, Veteran and Company Champion.

One Vetran may take an item from the Space Marine Standards list
One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, repolacing his chainsword with a power weapon and combat shield.
One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium. Available to all Veterans, but only one may take the upgrade.
Any Veteran may take melta bombs
Any Veteran may take a storm shield
Any Veteran may take items from the Melee / Ranged / Special Weapons lists.

So, based on those options you're not allowed to take meltabombs, storm shields or items from Melee/Ranged/Special Weapons/Space Marine Standards lists on a Company Champion or Apothecary.
OTHERWISE you'd get strange models:
* An Apothecary who also holds a Banner.
* An Apothecary with twin Lightning Claws and a Banner
* A Company Champion with a Company Standard, Power Axe, Meltagun, Storm Shield and Combat Shield.

Now, the fun stuff begins: Since I don't have a VETERAN with a Banner "after" upgrading the Banner-holding Veteran to an Apothecary, I'm free to take another one, right? And if I upgrade that guy to a Company Champion, I'm free to take yet another Banner, surely.
So now I have a Command Squad with two Company standards and a Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, with one of the Banner carriers giving FnP and the other being a Company Champion. So, at this point we can conclude that this is probably not how it is supposed to work.

nekooni wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
Unfortunately, the key difference between SW and vanilla is that vanilla squads start with four scouts and a sergeant, while SW starts with five scouts. If the Wolf Scouts option read "may be joined by a WGPL" or "may replace one Scout with a WGPL" then the options you note would operate more-or-less identically between the two codices, and we wouldn't have needed twenty pages of arguments on what exactly the word "upgrade" entailed when dealing with wargear and/or profile modifications.

I used the Vanilla Scouts - with added examples - just to demonstrate it. The Vanilla Codex has exactly(!) the same situation in other squads, but without the other option wordings - I'd have to add more "made up options".

But if you insist on an actual example: Command Squads.

Has three profiles: Apothecary, Veteran and Company Champion.

One Vetran may take an item from the Space Marine Standards list
One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, repolacing his chainsword with a power weapon and combat shield.
One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium. Available to all Veterans, but only one may take the upgrade.
Any Veteran may take melta bombs
Any Veteran may take a storm shield
Any Veteran may take items from the Melee / Ranged / Special Weapons lists.

So, based on those options you're not allowed to take meltabombs, storm shields or items from Melee/Ranged/Special Weapons/Space Marine Standards lists on a Company Champion or Apothecary.
OTHERWISE you'd get strange models:
* An Apothecary who also holds a Banner.
* An Apothecary with twin Lightning Claws and a Banner
* A Company Champion with a Company Standard, Power Axe, Meltagun, Storm Shield and Combat Shield.

Now, the fun stuff begins: Since I don't have a VETERAN with a Banner "after" upgrading the Banner-holding Veteran to an Apothecary, I'm free to take another one, right? And if I upgrade that guy to a Company Champion, I'm free to take yet another Banner, surely.
So now I have a Command Squad with two Company standards and a Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, with one of the Banner carriers giving FnP and the other being a Company Champion. So, at this point we can conclude that this is probably not how it is supposed to work.

And, like in the Wolf Scouts squad, those "strange" command squad models would be arguably legal. This has been vigorously discussed and debated here, in this thread, and here, and here, and here, and also here. In none of those threads has anything resembling a consensus been reached.

Your "fun stuff" examples are completely nonsensical. You're explicitly told ONE Veteran may take each of the first three options. The fact that you combined two of them in one model does not change the fact that a Veteran has indeed already taken them.

Hence, the point I was making: No one knows what GW meant by "upgrade." Discuss with your opponent or consult your tournament FAQs or judges.

 Aijec wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no order of operations. All things have to be legal at the end.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are not Wolf Scouts and can not have any of the options listed for Wolf Scouts.

This has been discussed about a million times and there is never a consensus. Just as there is no order of operations, there is also no requirement that all things have to be legal at the end. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that each option be tested for "legality" as it is taken.

You will not find one here.

While there certainly isn't a consensus online it's pretty commonly judged as being a totally different model type unable to take any of the upgrades in any tournament using an FAQ.

While the scout example is pretty innocuous the precedent it sets for command squads that fuel deathstars with FnP can be kind of scary. (Stormshields on apothecaries etc.)

I totally agree that there is a tournament consensus. The issue is that tournaments FAQs are basically localized house rules. Most of the current major tournament FAQs change rules for balance reasons and not clarity reasons. They include unofficial Erratas... or "house rules". Looking to these FAQs as a source for RaW guidance is useless. The inclusion of house rules destroys any integrity they have in terms of RaW adherence. Ergo, tournament FAQs aren't useful when we're trying to figure out what the rules actually say BEFORE deciding whether or not to FAQ or Errata the rules.

I think a lot of people on these forums decide how the rules SHOULD work and then argue until they're blue in the face that the rules as written support their interpretation. 9 times out of 10 we all agree how the rules SHOULD work. We don't always agree on how the rules ACTUALLY work. It's almost like one side is arguing ACTUALLY and the other side is arguing SHOULD. I think that's the main reason we'll never have a consensus. Half of us aren't even participating in the same argument.

And yeah, horrible precedent would be set if this is allowed in a competitive scene.

 Kriswall wrote:
I totally agree that there is a tournament consensus. The issue is that tournaments FAQs are basically localized house rules. Most of the current major tournament FAQs change rules for balance reasons and not clarity reasons. They include unofficial Erratas... or "house rules". Looking to these FAQs as a source for RaW guidance is useless. The inclusion of house rules destroys any integrity they have in terms of RaW adherence. Ergo, tournament FAQs aren't useful when we're trying to figure out what the rules actually say BEFORE deciding whether or not to FAQ or Errata the rules.

I think a lot of people on these forums decide how the rules SHOULD work and then argue until they're blue in the face that the rules as written support their interpretation. 9 times out of 10 we all agree how the rules SHOULD work. We don't always agree on how the rules ACTUALLY work. It's almost like one side is arguing ACTUALLY and the other side is arguing SHOULD. I think that's the main reason we'll never have a consensus. Half of us aren't even participating in the same argument.

And yeah, horrible precedent would be set if this is allowed in a competitive scene.

Well put.

And part of this particular problem is there isn't much of anything on "how it actually works" to go on. It would be nice if a consensus could be reached on that at least. We could then appropriately divert this conversation to Proposed Rules where it actually belongs.

nekooni wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
Unfortunately, the key difference between SW and vanilla is that vanilla squads start with four scouts and a sergeant, while SW starts with five scouts. If the Wolf Scouts option read "may be joined by a WGPL" or "may replace one Scout with a WGPL" then the options you note would operate more-or-less identically between the two codices, and we wouldn't have needed twenty pages of arguments on what exactly the word "upgrade" entailed when dealing with wargear and/or profile modifications.

I used the Vanilla Scouts - with added examples - just to demonstrate it. The Vanilla Codex has exactly(!) the same situation in other squads, but without the other option wordings - I'd have to add more "made up options".

But if you insist on an actual example: Command Squads.

Has three profiles: Apothecary, Veteran and Company Champion.

One Vetran may take an item from the Space Marine Standards list
One Veteran may be upgraded to a Company Champion, repolacing his chainsword with a power weapon and combat shield.
One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium. Available to all Veterans, but only one may take the upgrade.
Any Veteran may take melta bombs
Any Veteran may take a storm shield
Any Veteran may take items from the Melee / Ranged / Special Weapons lists.

So, based on those options you're not allowed to take meltabombs, storm shields or items from Melee/Ranged/Special Weapons/Space Marine Standards lists on a Company Champion or Apothecary.
OTHERWISE you'd get strange models:
* An Apothecary who also holds a Banner.
* An Apothecary with twin Lightning Claws and a Banner
* A Company Champion with a Company Standard, Power Axe, Meltagun, Storm Shield and Combat Shield.

Now, the fun stuff begins: Since I don't have a VETERAN with a Banner "after" upgrading the Banner-holding Veteran to an Apothecary, I'm free to take another one, right? And if I upgrade that guy to a Company Champion, I'm free to take yet another Banner, surely.
So now I have a Command Squad with two Company standards and a Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, with one of the Banner carriers giving FnP and the other being a Company Champion. So, at this point we can conclude that this is probably not how it is supposed to work.

I... fail to see a problem with ANY of those combinations, aside from the fact that I don't see a use for having both a combat shield AND a storm shield. Based on how the rules are written, it looks perfectly valid.

Zarius wrote:

I... fail to see a problem with ANY of those combinations, aside from the fact that I don't see a use for having both a combat shield AND a storm shield. Based on how the rules are written, it looks perfectly valid.

you fail to see any problem with having three banners in one squad? As in "that's clearly meant to be a valid unit"? We kinda disagree on what the written rules say and I am just trying to show how ridiculous a unit you could build if your interpretation was correct. I am well aware that it is legal according to your interpretation,that was the whole point of it.