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@kriswall I don't see how your reply to my comment addresses the points I made. I was referring to what the rules tell you to do. The rules are related to the end product, not the process of arriving at it. It black and white tells you what wargear different models can take. If your list has a character with a weapon that isn't on their allowable upgrade list, it isn't legal. Arguing that you were able to select it at a previous point is immaterial, because the rules don't care about the process, just the end result.

 JamesY wrote:
the rules don't care about the process, just the end result.

[CITATION NEEDED]

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
the rules don't care about the process, just the end result.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Why are you shouting? Get a grip.

Citation? P128, after the rules on composing your army, where it says 'preparing for battle'. This informs us that there will be no further ruling on the content of the previous chapter. Also, the table which tells us the mission format, and how to progress from agreeing on a game to playing through it. P130 tells us that after picking our army with the rules given in the previous chapter, we then need to attend to the battlefield. Given that you cannot progress to this, then deployment, and then the first turn without a list, the rules clearly assume that the list writing has been completed. Hence the end result is what is needed to progress to organizing the battlefield, deploying, the first turn etc.

 JamesY wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
the rules don't care about the process, just the end result.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Why are you shouting? Get a grip.

Citation? P128, after the rules on composing your army, where it says 'preparing for battle'. This informs us that there will be no further ruling on the content of the previous chapter. Also, the table which tells us the mission format, and how to progress from agreeing on a game to playing through it. P130 tells us that after picking our army with the rules given in the previous chapter, we then need to attend to the battlefield. Given that you cannot progress to this, then deployment, and then the first turn without a list, the rules clearly assume that the list writing has been completed. Hence the end result is what is needed to progress to organizing the battlefield, deploying, the first turn etc.

That is not dismissal of the process, though, just a direction for when the army list is complete.

The closest I am aware of is earlier in the introduction to "Choosing Your Army"

Before any game, players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use.

Basically, it is in our hands to make the determination of how options are to be addressed. So unless someone can demonstrate something in the codex that is more specific than that, I think we are properly done with RAW, and redirect this over to Proposed Rules.

I don't think anyone wants to inadvertently allow jump pack terminators just so people can waste points on WHPLs for sniper scouts.

 Kavish wrote:


HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts?

That does not matter because there is a rule that disallows models in terminator armor from taking jump packs.

I am not ignoring facts.

At the end of the build has this rule been broken if you have a jump pack and terminator armor?

What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

Nothing, but i do not see how this has any bearing on anything we are discussing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:


HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts?

That does not matter because there is a rule that disallows models in terminator armor from taking jump packs.

I am not ignoring facts.

At the end of the build has this rule been broken if you have a jump pack and terminator armor?

What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

Nothing, but i do not see how this has any bearing on anything we are discussing.

Except the rule was not broken, since a model in terminator armor did not take a jump pack.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:


HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts?

That does not matter because there is a rule that disallows models in terminator armor from taking jump packs.

I am not ignoring facts.

At the end of the build has this rule been broken if you have a jump pack and terminator armor?

What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

Nothing, but i do not see how this has any bearing on anything we are discussing.

Except the rule was not broken, since a model in terminator armor did not take a jump pack.

but it has been because the model in terminator armor has taken a jump pack. at the end of the process they have both...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:


HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts?

That does not matter because there is a rule that disallows models in terminator armor from taking jump packs.

I am not ignoring facts.

At the end of the build has this rule been broken if you have a jump pack and terminator armor?

What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

Nothing, but i do not see how this has any bearing on anything we are discussing.

Except the rule was not broken, since a model in terminator armor did not take a jump pack.

but it has been because the model in terminator armor has taken a jump pack.

No, a model with a jump pack took terminator armor. Order matters.

In the end there is a model with terminator armor and a jump pack.... withc is not allowed

So you are saying there is a legality check at the end? Guess what; WGPL is not permitted to have a sniper rifle. Permissive ruleset remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whichever way you try to get around it, if a WGPL with sniper rifle is legal, then so is jump pack terminators and Apothcaries with all sorts of wargear.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:


HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts?

That does not matter because there is a rule that disallows models in terminator armor from taking jump packs.

I am not ignoring facts.

At the end of the build has this rule been broken if you have a jump pack and terminator armor?

What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

Nothing, but i do not see how this has any bearing on anything we are discussing.

Except the rule was not broken, since a model in terminator armor did not take a jump pack.

but it has been because the model in terminator armor has taken a jump pack.

No, a model with a jump pack took terminator armor. Order matters.

Can I step in here and say that most entries specifically say that a model my take items such as jump packs OR they may replace all their wargear with termi armour a power weapon and combi bolter. So a model with a jump pack cannot take terminator armour.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Can I step in here and say that most entries specifically say that a model my take items such as jump packs OR they may replace all their wargear with termi armour a power weapon and combi bolter. So a model with a jump pack cannot take terminator armour.

Not sure about SW or DA, but BA and SM are very specific about what wargear is replaced (specifically pistol, chainsword, grenades, and in the case of BA, power armor).

 Kavish wrote:
So you are saying there is a legality check at the end?

At pretty much all times, as we should strive to break no rule.

Guess what; WGPL is not permitted to have a sniper rifle. Permissive ruleset remember.

If you cound at least furnish the rule that stated a WGPL may not have a sniper rifle, then maybe I would believe you.

Whichever way you try to get around it, if a WGPL with sniper rifle is legal, then so is jump pack terminators and Apothcaries with all sorts of wargear.

Bad example, there is a specific rule about terminators and Jump packs.

There is not one about WGPL and Sniper rifles though.

 JamesY wrote:
@kriswall I don't see how your reply to my comment addresses the points I made. I was referring to what the rules tell you to do. The rules are related to the end product, not the process of arriving at it. It black and white tells you what wargear different models can take. If your list has a character with a weapon that isn't on their allowable upgrade list, it isn't legal. Arguing that you were able to select it at a previous point is immaterial, because the rules don't care about the process, just the end result.

Do you have any rule citations to provide that the options all have to be "legal" at the end and not as they're selected? That's a pretty big assumption, and one that I have yet to see anyone back up with an actual rules quote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kavish wrote:
So you are saying there is a legality check at the end? Guess what; WGPL is not permitted to have a sniper rifle. Permissive ruleset remember.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whichever way you try to get around it, if a WGPL with sniper rifle is legal, then so is jump pack terminators and Apothcaries with all sorts of wargear.

Can you quote the page and paragraph that says a WGPL can't have a Sniper Rifle? I can't find any specific restriction in my copy of the Codex. Maybe yours has more pages.

I just told you. It's a PERMISSIVE RULESET. Only a WOLF SCOUT has permission to have a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm guessing you don't understand the principle behind the term "permissive ruleset" so I'll explain it to you.

In a restrictive ruleset you can do anything you want except for the things the ruleset says you cannot do.

In a permissive ruleset you cannot do anything unless the ruleset say you can.

The rules don't say that a WGPL can take a sniper rifle. A rule saying he cannot have a sniper rifle in not required because he was never permitted one to begin with. The reason they disallowed taking a jump pack when you have terminator is because the librarian does have permission to take each of these pieces of wargear. A restriction was necessary in this instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree. The librarian with a jump pack is not legal, as long as there is a "legality check" at the end of building an army list. Unfortunately this also prevents a WGPL from having a sniper rifle.

If there is no at end legality check then then we can just choose things in particular order to circumvent the limitations. This would allow all sorts of ridiculous situations. For example: Cypher cannot be taken if your army contains any models with the DA faction. No problem, I'll just select Cypher first. At this point there are no models with the DA faction in the army and there is no limitation on DA joining an army that already contains Cypher.

And so I conclude, your method can in certain situations break the clear intended rules of the developers so therefore cannot be correct.

 Kavish wrote:
I just told you. It's a PERMISSIVE RULESET. Only a WOLF SCOUT has permission to have a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall.

and a WOLF SCOUT was the only model that took a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
I just told you. It's a PERMISSIVE RULESET. Only a WOLF SCOUT has permission to have a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall.

and a WOLF SCOUT was the only model that took a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall...

And once you swap the Wolf Scout for a WGPL you have a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle, which he has no permission to have.

A Space Marine Biker has permission to own a Meltagun, even if he has to swap his chainsword for a boltpistol, too. A WGPL does not have permission to buy a Sniper Rifle.

Any case where the rules intend to give an option to BOTH the normal and the upgraded version it will state so explicitly - eg Veteran Sergeants / normal Sergeants for Space Marines - or simply "any model". By that we can be pretty sure that this is intentional (not 100% since there's no official comment on it, but it's pretty close)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
I just told you. It's a PERMISSIVE RULESET. Only a WOLF SCOUT has permission to have a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall.

and a WOLF SCOUT was the only model that took a sniper rifle. It's like talking to a brick wall...

Right. And it was a JUMP PACK model that took Terminator Armor.

Lusiphur wrote:

Even in the instance where you CAN legitimately claim that upgrade inherently requires replacement, such as your example of changing the tires on a car, it DOES NOT BLOODY WELL REQUIRE FULL REPLACEMENT OF EVERYTHING. I don't magically loose a custom speaker/stereo set up just because I change my bloody tires.

On the other hand, if you upgrade the tires on a Dodge Dart model car, then upgrade the car model to a Dodge Charger, the tires are still on the Dart and the Charger does not have access to them.

Sorry, but while you're right, the point wasn't that it CAN mean that, it was that it does not INHERENTLY mean that. I DON'T have to but a whole new car every time I need to change my tires, so why the hell would I buy a NEW troop when I can just "promote" the old one. ESPECIALLY for a specialty unit. Wolf armies, scouts aren't the newest greenhorns. They're veterans, and a specialty unit, not fresh out of training newblets. I don't know about anyone else, but from a military perspective, it doesn't many any damn sense to put a guy in charge of a unit that has no idea how that unit functions.

Kavish: Like I said, go for it. Put a jump pack marine into terminator gear. Just remember two things: Firstly, to go into Terminator armor, the Codices clearly describe a process of gear swapping. It makes it moderately clear that, while it is reasonable to consider it the same troop in the new armor, that you ARE effectively resetting the gear. At the minimum, the jump pack is affixed to the original armor, which you are trading in for terminator armor. That inherently means that the jump pack wouldn't transfer. Second, even if you DO put the jump pack on the terminator armor, there IS a clear rule that states that a jump pack will NOT work on a suit of terminator armor, so while you can put it on there, if you pay a points cost for it, you just bought a completely cosmetic suit piece of gear. You're right, there is no rule expressly forbidding a jump pack trooper from getting in a suit of terminator armor. However, the reverse is true, and logic dictates that you can't actually use the jump pack that way.

Smurf: Knock off trying to quote a programs which expressly tells us that it may not line up with the rules manual perfectly and to double check the rules manual. Using a faulty source just tarnishes your point.

Charistoph: That line of reasoning would be acceptable if it weren't for the fact that there aren't numbers attached. The manual says that "the following are upgrades that the unit can take", but it does not specify only in that specific order. By that logic, if I take sniper rifles, I can't decide later to take a shotgun on one of my guys, because I already passed that options list. The concept of consecutive acquisitions is that it's the order the upgrades are taken, not the order they're listed. By that logic, you'd also have to start at Aisle 1 at the grocery store, and when you leave Aisle one, you aren't allowed to go back and grab something out of it, even if your recipe calls from an Aisle one product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I don't remember who said it, but to address the point of swapping out the carapace (actual physical model), I can easily take the head, legs, and arms off of my scout and put them on the correct carapace. More accurately, since the Power Armor chest piece and the Scout Armor chest piece are pretty much identical, I can take the legs and arms off of the model and swap them for arms and legs with power armoring on them, put the power pack on my model and boom, I have power armor. As far as the physical model is concerned. I can make all sorts of changes to the model itself, and still call them all the same guy inside the armor. I could trade out the unhelmeted head for a helmeted head. The bare arms for armored arms. The unarmored or lightly armored legs for properly armored legs. As far as the lore of that model goes, it's still the same person in the shell.

 Happyjew wrote:


Right. And it was a JUMP PACK model that took Terminator Armor.

except there is a specific rule the terminator model has broken if he has a jump pack at the end of the build. therefore jump pack terminators is illegal.

nekooni wrote:

And once you swap the Wolf Scout for a WGPL you have a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle, which he has no permission to have.

Why not, where is the restriction? Please post the rule that says a WGPL can not have a sniper rifle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Right. And it was a JUMP PACK model that took Terminator Armor.

except there is a specific rule the terminator model has broken if he has a jump pack at the end of the build. therefore jump pack terminators is illegal.

nekooni wrote:

And once you swap the Wolf Scout for a WGPL you have a WGPL with a Sniper Rifle, which he has no permission to have.

Why not, where is the restriction? Please post the rule that says a WGPL can not have a sniper rifle.

Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

 Happyjew wrote:


Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

the WGPL can have a Sniper rifle if he was upgraded from a scout with a sniper rifle. that is his permission to have one.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

the WGPL can have a Sniper rifle if he was upgraded from a scout with a sniper rifle. that is his permission to have one.

And a Terminator can have a Jump pack if he was up graded from Power armor and Jump pack. See, it works both ways.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

the WGPL can have a Sniper rifle if he was upgraded from a scout with a sniper rifle. that is his permission to have one.

And a Terminator can have a Jump pack if he was up graded from Power armor and Jump pack. See, it works both ways.

And, like I said, go for it. But the difference is that, when you upgrade a scout to a WGPL, you aren't told to change out the guns, just the armor. Adding terminator armor DOES inherently change out the armor. And, since you change out the armor to which the jump pack is attached, you still loose the jump pack you paid for.

Zarius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

the WGPL can have a Sniper rifle if he was upgraded from a scout with a sniper rifle. that is his permission to have one.

And a Terminator can have a Jump pack if he was up graded from Power armor and Jump pack. See, it works both ways.

And, like I said, go for it. But the difference is that, when you upgrade a scout to a WGPL, you aren't told to change out the guns, just the armor. Adding terminator armor DOES inherently change out the armor. And, since you change out the armor to which the jump pack is attached, you still loose the jump pack you paid for.

So if I take a Jump Pack and then take Artificer armor, I lose the Jump pack? Interesting argument.

 Happyjew wrote:

Zarius wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Where is there permission for a WGPL to take a Sniper Rifle?

the WGPL can have a Sniper rifle if he was upgraded from a scout with a sniper rifle. that is his permission to have one.

And a Terminator can have a Jump pack if he was up graded from Power armor and Jump pack. See, it works both ways.

And, like I said, go for it. But the difference is that, when you upgrade a scout to a WGPL, you aren't told to change out the guns, just the armor. Adding terminator armor DOES inherently change out the armor. And, since you change out the armor to which the jump pack is attached, you still loose the jump pack you paid for.

So if I take a Jump Pack and then take Artificer armor, I lose the Jump pack? Interesting argument.

Depends, does Artificer and the jet pack have a rule that expressly forbids the combination of the two? If not, then no. It would be assumed that the jetpack would be transferred to any compatible armor, such as Runic armor. I have no idea about Artificer, not having seen or heard of it as yet. The jetpack does, however, state that it is NOT compatible with terminator armor, and thus transferring it to terminator armor would be physically impossible.

It says models in Terminator Armour cannot take jump packs, but not vice versa.

What would be the point of having that rule if they intended it to be so easily bypassed?

 JamesY wrote:
What would be the point of having that rule if they intended it to be so easily bypassed?

The same point as naming only wolf scouts as eligible to take a Sniper Rifle.

It's not intended to be bypassed.