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I dare someone to find me another instance where the logic of WGPL with snipers applies.

if I get no responses, we know who is right.

col_impact wrote:
Merriam-Webster: upgrade = an occurrence in which one thing is replaced by something better, newer, more valuable, etc."

The WGPL is physically a different model in the game than a Wolf Scout.

OK, I'll conceed that Marriam-Webster is slowed, because by that logic, by adding snow chains to my tires, my car should magically become a new car. Which is bullcrap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
I dare someone to find me another instance where the logic of WGPL with snipers applies.

if I get no responses, we know who is right.

What logic do you mean?

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
I dare someone to find me another instance where the logic of WGPL with snipers applies.

if I get no responses, we know who is right.

Grey hunters Squads.

Blood Claw squads

Swiftclaw squads

Skyclaw squads...

 Kavish wrote:
No sniper rifle for WGPL. Permissive rule set. He does not have permission to have one. List not legal at end. Upgrading is replacing so he is no longer a wolf scout (ie: does not have the option for a sniper rifle).

This is incorrect...

Upgrading is not replacing.

col_impact wrote:
Second, the WGPL is a different model than the scout model.

I would ask you to prove it, but you can't

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

Are you using a definition of upgrade from the BRB?

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

Are you using a definition of upgrade from the BRB?

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF UPGRADE IN THE BRB, WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS REPEATEDLY

Zarius wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

Are you using a definition of upgrade from the BRB?

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF UPGRADE IN THE BRB, WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS REPEATEDLY

Ok. So no rule in the BRB justifies what you are doing. Got it.

Also, per the Oxford dictionary, Raise (something) to a higher standard, in particular improve (equipment or machinery) by adding or replacing components:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

Are you using a definition of upgrade from the BRB?

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF UPGRADE IN THE BRB, WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS REPEATEDLY

Ok. So no rule in the BRB justifies what you are doing. Got it.

No rule in the BRB forbids it, and the chain of logic workd.

Zarius wrote:
Also, per the Oxford dictionary, Raise (something) to a higher standard, in particular improve (equipment or machinery) by adding or replacing components:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

Are you using a definition of upgrade from the BRB?

THERE IS NO DEFINITION OF UPGRADE IN THE BRB, WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS REPEATEDLY

Ok. So no rule in the BRB justifies what you are doing. Got it.

No rule in the BRB forbids it, and the chain of logic workd.

You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

col_impact wrote:
You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

Not true at all...

It does not say Replace. so we have no permission to replace the Scout, just to upgrade him.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

Not true at all...

It does not say Replace. so we have no permission to replace the Scout, just to upgrade him.

Cool. Upgrade means replace.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

Not true at all...

It does not say Replace. so we have no permission to replace the Scout, just to upgrade him.

Cool. Upgrade means replace.

Prove it

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

Not true at all...

It does not say Replace. so we have no permission to replace the Scout, just to upgrade him.

Cool. Upgrade means replace.

Prove it

I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

you do have to prove it. because Upgrade does not necessarily mean replace...

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

you do have to prove it. because Upgrade does not necessarily mean replace...

No sniper rifle on your WGPL until you can prove it can be on there. The burden of proof is on you.

Zarius wrote:
No rule in the BRB forbids it, and the chain of logic workd.

Nor is applying blunt force to your WPGL Sniper and calling it a legal Destroyer Weapon Orbital Attack forbidden. Permissive ruleset, remember?

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

Apologies, I was not specific and detailed enough.

It has not been properly established that you can replace the Wolf Scout's boltgun to a Sniper Rifle before upgrading it to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. This point is operating on an assumption that you can.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You don't have permission until you can prove that upgrade means "promote" and not "replace".

Not true at all...

It does not say Replace. so we have no permission to replace the Scout, just to upgrade him.

Cool. Upgrade means replace.

Even in the instance where you CAN legitimately claim that upgrade inherently requires replacement, such as your example of changing the tires on a car, it DOES NOT BLOODY WELL REQUIRE FULL REPLACEMENT OF EVERYTHING. I don't magically loose a custom speaker/stereo set up just because I change my bloody tires. If I swap my video card for a better one, my computer has been upgraded and thus the whole of the computing power of my household, without completely replacing anything. The only viable difference between a scout and a WGPL, gear wise, is the armor. It's not like I'm completely replacing the class of unit. I'm not trading a scout for a walker. As you have said, REPEATEDLY, all upgrade means is to "get something better." Getting a better unit does NOT require trading out the whole of the bloody unit. Now, quit repeating tired old arguments that have been shown to be flaws ages ago. Crimeny, you argue like a Christian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

Apologies, I was not specific and detailed enough.

It has not been properly established that you can replace the Wolf Scout's boltgun to a Sniper Rifle before upgrading it to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. This point is operating on an assumption that you can.

Christoph, the only way for a SM biker to get a Special weapon is to first swap out their Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword so that they have a melee weapon to trade. It can't be done as "consecutive option acquisition." More over, the same statement applies to WGPL and Meltabombs. You have to FIRST upgrade to WGPL and THEN upgrade to include meltabombs, because if you take both at the same time, when you check "is WGPL?" to see if you can take the meltabombs, the answer is NO until after the WGPL upgrade is complete which, since it happens at the same time as the meltabomb upgrade, means that the unit is still a scout when the checks are all done at the same time.

The two of these establish that there IS an order of operations, and thus there IS an order to the upgrades, period. To deny that is just being as childish as col_impact's constant claim that that "getting something better than you had" inherently means that you have to replace the whole thing.

Zarius wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Apologies, I was not specific and detailed enough.

It has not been properly established that you can replace the Wolf Scout's boltgun to a Sniper Rifle before upgrading it to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. This point is operating on an assumption that you can.

Christoph, the only way for a SM biker to get a Special weapon is to first swap out their Bolt Pistol for a Chainsword so that they have a melee weapon to trade. It can't be done as "consecutive option acquisition." More over, the same statement applies to WGPL and Meltabombs. You have to FIRST upgrade to WGPL and THEN upgrade to include meltabombs, because if you take both at the same time, when you check "is WGPL?" to see if you can take the meltabombs, the answer is NO until after the WGPL upgrade is complete which, since it happens at the same time as the meltabomb upgrade, means that the unit is still a scout when the checks are all done at the same time.

The two of these establish that there IS an order of operations, and thus there IS an order to the upgrades, period. To deny that is just being as childish as col_impact's constant claim that that "getting something better than you had" inherently means that you have to replace the whole thing.

Yes, I do remember the Bikes example, I was one of the ones who brought it up, I think.

While I do not have a copy of the Wulfen version of the Space Wolves codex, I do have the previous version. If unchanged between these two, and if we use a "consecutive option acquisition" procedure, than the WGPL can get a camo cloak, but not a Sniper Rifle before upgrading.

The options are in order:
1) add models
2) add Camo cloaks to all Wolf Scouts
3) upgrade a Wolf Scout to WGPL
4) WGPL takes items from Melee or Ranged lists
5) add Meltabombs to WGPL
6) replace Wolf Scouts boltguns
7) replace 2 Wolf Scouts boltguns with a special weapon option
8) one Wolf Scout can take a weapon from Heavy or Special Weapon list.

So, if we go by this order, then there is no method for the WGPL to get one. Nothing specific is written to make this a required method.

However, if the operation can be done in any order, than one can go from step 1 to step 6, then back to step 3, than we can be looking at a WPGL getting a Sniper Rifle before becoming a WGPL, and it is to this that the above observations were directed regarding if the Wargear is reset on upgrade or not. However, nothing specific is written making THIS an allowed method.

If we look at it from a "final perspective", then the WPGL could not get it because there is no option for the WPGL to take one on the list, just the Scouts. The process in how it got it is irrelevant, it simply does not have permission to have it. And again, there is nothing specifically written making this the required or allowed method.

It is terribly irritating in these situations that it isn't properly defined as it leads to these discussions and someone finds a combination that can be rather broken when you put it on the board.

Even in the instance where you CAN legitimately claim that upgrade inherently requires replacement, such as your example of changing the tires on a car, it DOES NOT BLOODY WELL REQUIRE FULL REPLACEMENT OF EVERYTHING. I don't magically loose a custom speaker/stereo set up just because I change my bloody tires.

On the other hand, if you upgrade the tires on a Dodge Dart model car, then upgrade the car model to a Dodge Charger, the tires are still on the Dart and the Charger does not have access to them.

The thing is. Whether "upgrade" replaces the scout or not, in the end he is no longer a wolf scout. Wolf scout does not have permission to have a sniper rifle.

Either that or I'm giving my company champion and apothecary a storm shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also jump pack terminators are now a thing.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

you do have to prove it. because Upgrade does not necessarily mean replace...

No sniper rifle on your WGPL until you can prove it can be on there. The burden of proof is on you.

Already proved it can be there. He took the Sniper rifle as a scout then was upgraded to a WGPL.

Any rules that actually state that he loses his gear?

Any at all?

Please post them.

But you wont be able to, because they do not exist.

And don't try to argue that it is not the same thing. The whole basis for your argument is you are doing it in a specific order and the end product is not subject to a legality check.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok. Be on the look out for my librarian terminators with jump packs. It's gonna be awesome!!!

 Kavish wrote:
The thing is. Whether "upgrade" replaces the scout or not, in the end he is no longer a wolf scout. Wolf scout does not have permission to have a sniper rifle. .

Please quote any actual rule that states a WGPL CAN NOT have a Sniper rifle...

 Kavish wrote:
Also jump pack terminators are now a thing.

No they are not, a model in Terminator Armor are specifically disallowed from having a Jump pack. (This has been noted earlier in the thread)

 DeathReaper wrote:

Already proved it can be there. He took the Sniper rifle as a scout then was upgraded to a WGPL.

My librarian took a jump pack before he took the terminator armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not a model with terminator armour taking a jump pack, it's a model with a jump pack taking terminator armour. By your logic this is legal because I did it in the right order.

 Kavish wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Already proved it can be there. He took the Sniper rifle as a scout then was upgraded to a WGPL.

My librarian took a jump pack before he took the terminator armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not a model with terminator armour taking a jump pack, it's a model with a jump pack taking terminator armour. By your logic this is legal because I did it in the right order.

Except there is a rule explicitly forbidding the terminator...

So not at all the same situation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

you do have to prove it. because Upgrade does not necessarily mean replace...

Doesn't a wgpl wear power armour? So in this case you would have to replace the model from one wearing carapace armour to one wearing power armour. Upgrade or replace depends upon the nature of the the upgrade. Upgrading a librarian to a higher mastery level would not require a new model. Upgrading a chapter master to one riding a bike would clearly need replacing with a suitable model riding a bike. It doesn't take much common sense to know which meaning of upgrade is required for each particular option, and the rules assume that the player will apply this.

I also go down the line that it is the end product that the rules are concerned with, not the process. Foc, detachments, and dataslates all tell us what something should look like at the end. If it doesn't, it isn't legal. If I look at your list, see a wgpl, any gear he has must be from the allowable upgrades for a wgpl. As soon as you upgrade him, he no longer has access to the wargear available to a scout, and as a part of editing and double checking your list you have to remove any upgrades that are no longer allowable. It's in black and white what options are available to each model, and the rules only care that this is correct at the end of the list. Arguing otherwise is at best bending the rules, at worst trying to cheat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Upgrade has many different definitions, not all of them mean replace.

it does not say to replace the scout, just Upgrade him, so you do not replace him.

 TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
I dare someone to find me another instance where the logic of WGPL with snipers applies.

if I get no responses, we know who is right.

Grey hunters Squads.

Blood Claw squads

Swiftclaw squads

Skyclaw squads...

 Kavish wrote:
No sniper rifle for WGPL. Permissive rule set. He does not have permission to have one. List not legal at end. Upgrading is replacing so he is no longer a wolf scout (ie: does not have the option for a sniper rifle).

This is incorrect...

Upgrading is not replacing.

col_impact wrote:
Second, the WGPL is a different model than the scout model.

I would ask you to prove it, but you can't

All the units you just listed are all in Power Armour, have the same starting Wargear and nobody has yet found a problem with their wording.

Let's take Vanguard Veterans for instance, the Veteran Sergeant may take a relic blade, but the rest may not because it is an explicit, permissive ruleset.

It is literally the same logic as jump pack terminators and every time I've seen somebody post about that logic, they've been dismissed with a mere 'You're wrong' with no explanation. Proves to me that they are right because you refuse to explain.

It's also useless using Merriam-Webster, because it's not a Queen's English dictionary, which if it's not Queen's English, it's not english.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Already proved it can be there. He took the Sniper rifle as a scout then was upgraded to a WGPL.

My librarian took a jump pack before he took the terminator armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's not a model with terminator armour taking a jump pack, it's a model with a jump pack taking terminator armour. By your logic this is legal because I did it in the right order.

Except there is a rule explicitly forbidding the terminator...

So not at all the same situation.

HE WAS NOT A TERMINATOR WHEN HE GOT THE JUMP PACK. There is no rule expressly forbidding a model with a jump pack from taking terminator armour. Honestly. Are you choosing to ignore the facts? What's so great about a sniper rifle on a model with power armour anyway?

This exactly.

The reason It can't be done by the iPad version brcause it can't be done at all. The order and names of models that are stated forbid it, not the dictionary definition, not the codex.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Again, that's one possible definition. Another possible definition is to take something and change it to make it better than it was before. Upgrading doesn't require a component of replacing. Since you aren't getting this, I'll quote one of the core tenants of this board.

"6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out. "

By continuing to quote dictionary definition as backup for your position, you are violating the core tenants of this board.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I don't have to. I am not trying to give a WGPL a sniper rifle.

you do have to prove it. because Upgrade does not necessarily mean replace...

Doesn't a wgpl wear power armour? So in this case you would have to replace the model from one wearing carapace armour to one wearing power armour. Upgrade or replace depends upon the nature of the the upgrade. Upgrading a librarian to a higher mastery level would not require a new model. Upgrading a chapter master to one riding a bike would clearly need replacing with a suitable model riding a bike. It doesn't take much common sense to know which meaning of upgrade is required for each particular option, and the rules assume that the player will apply this.

I also go down the line that it is the end product that the rules are concerned with, not the process. Foc, detachments, and dataslates all tell us what something should look like at the end. If it doesn't, it isn't legal. If I look at your list, see a wgpl, any gear he has must be from the allowable upgrades for a wgpl. As soon as you upgrade him, he no longer has access to the wargear available to a scout, and as a part of editing and double checking your list you have to remove any upgrades that are no longer allowable. It's in black and white what options are available to each model, and the rules only care that this is correct at the end of the list. Arguing otherwise is at best bending the rules, at worst trying to cheat.

We aren't talking about real world. The rules also tell us that a given model can swap its Bolter for a Sniper Rifle. GW doesn't make a model that allows you to pull off a Bolter and put on a Sniper Rifle... yet we allow it and conceptually don't think of the model as being replaced. Only his weapon is being replaced. You need to look at what the rules actually tell us and not how you'd physically manage your models in the real world.