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col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The Options panel lists unit upgrades.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you had originally"

Yeah, and? You still have yet to show evidence that this means that you replace the whole model and not just the required gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You keep harping on that, Col, but never actually providing anything resembling evidence to your point. Pony up, or stop talking about it.

So you upgrade the unit and you get a model that is better than the model you originally had. That is implicitly replacing. And that is the rules supported way.

Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 _ghost_ wrote:
Then i can roll a d6 and claim to win on a result of 1+

GW never stated that this is not a legal way to win a game. therefore there is no official ruling and i am free to play as i want .

40k is a permissive ruleset. so i need permission to do stuff. not the other way around

Actually there is. Stating expressly that a 2+ (or 3+ or 4+) is a hit/wound DOES inherently say that a 1 is an automatic failure on to-hit and to-wound rolls. Hell, you roll a to-hit of 1 with a plasma weapon, and you injure YOURSELF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the model had permission to take the sniper rifle when it was assigned. NOTHING says he has to relinquish it on upgrade.

Zarius wrote:


Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?

This is simple English usage of "upgrade".

If I upgrade the tires on my car to racing tires then it involves swapping out the old for the new.

If I get a room upgrade at a hotel then it involves a wholly new and better room.

8th Edition SM Codex: Jump Terminators!!!!

Actually there is. Stating expressly that a 2+ (or 3+ or 4+) is a hit/wound DOES inherently say that a 1 is an automatic failure on to-hit and to-wound rolls. Hell, you roll a to-hit of 1 with a plasma weapon, and you injure YOURSELF.

Wow, that went right over your head. He did not say his roll was for to hit or to wound. He said to win the game he will roll a single D6 and with a 1+ he wins. Since the rules don't say he can't do that.


Let me ask some questions though.

Why would a WGPL need a set of Starting gear if his gear is always built off the WS?

If the WGPL could take a sniper rifle why doesn't the upgrade rule say "Any model can take a sniper rifle" instead of singling out the Wolf Scout? Any Model can take has common usage in all codexes.

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yes there is, I quoted it.

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:


Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?

This is simple English usage of "upgrade".

If I upgrade the tires on my car to racing tires then it involves swapping out the old for the new.

If I get a room upgrade at a hotel then it involves a wholly new and better room.

So you are saying that it looses all of its gear, because the WGPL is not listed with any gear other than Power armor.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yes there is, I quoted it.

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

Again, that quote says a model with Terminator armour cannot take a Jump Pack. It does not say model with a Jump Pack cannot take Terminator armour.

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:


Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?

This is simple English usage of "upgrade".

If I upgrade the tires on my car to racing tires then it involves swapping out the old for the new.

If I get a room upgrade at a hotel then it involves a wholly new and better room.

Yes, hotel rooms don't have the option to magically make a room bigger, so you CAN'T upgrade just part of a hotel room.

As to the race car, you're replacing the TIRES, not your whole race car. That singular race car is a single model on a TEAM or race cars, not necessarily the whole team in itself. Most racing teams have more than one car. If you have a non-stock steering wheel, you don't magically loose the steering wheel when you change the tires. So THIS example actually is directly in line with what we've been saying: The act of upgrading a model does NOT inherently require replacing the model.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yes there is, I quoted it.

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

Again, that quote says a model with Terminator armour cannot take a Jump Pack. It does not say model with a Jump Pack cannot take Terminator armour.

Not seeing your point.

Bottom line for this is if you have terminator armor you are not allowed to take a Jump pack. at the end of the build the model has a jump pack and terminator armor then it is an illegal build because of the rule I quoted.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Why cant the WGPL have a Sniper rifle?

What rule prohibits this?

Only by lack of permission to take one as a WGPL.

Except they already have one...

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yes there is, I quoted it.

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

Again, that quote says a model with Terminator armour cannot take a Jump Pack. It does not say model with a Jump Pack cannot take Terminator armour.

No, there is not. Feel free to do it. But there IS rules against a terminator unit from using a jump pack, so even if you take it, you can't use it.

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:


Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?

This is simple English usage of "upgrade".

If I upgrade the tires on my car to racing tires then it involves swapping out the old for the new.

If I get a room upgrade at a hotel then it involves a wholly new and better room.

I guess you're ok with real world examples now? Zarius will be pleased that you've changed your mind.

If I use an extra chevron to upgrade my Corporal to a Sergeant, I haven't replaced the Corporal. I've simply made him better via an upgrade. Upgrade has more than one meaning. You need to let go of the idea that upgrade necessarily requires a replacement process.

Besides, if I upgrade my car's stock tires to snow tires, I could either be flat out replacing them OR I could be installing chains, thus making them better. Both processes are upgrades, but only one involves replacement.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Why cant the WGPL have a Sniper rifle?

What rule prohibits this?

Only by lack of permission to take one as a WGPL.

Except they already have one...

Maybe, maybe not. We do not have permission or instructions to keep any Wargear acquired by the initial model in the Unit Composition when it is transitioned to the new model profile. Of course, we don't have instructions to drop it and revert to the default equipment under the Wargear list, either.

The lack of an order of operations or any other set of instructions does hinder this.

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Zarius wrote:


Where does it imply replacing? HOW does it imply replacing? Why would getting a better model inherently require REPLACING the model? Who considers that a more efficient method than upgrading the model, which is STILL a unit upgrade?

This is simple English usage of "upgrade".

If I upgrade the tires on my car to racing tires then it involves swapping out the old for the new.

If I get a room upgrade at a hotel then it involves a wholly new and better room.

I guess you're ok with real world examples now? Zarius will be pleased that you've changed your mind.

If I use an extra chevron to upgrade my Corporal to a Sergeant, I haven't replaced the Corporal. I've simply made him better via an upgrade. Upgrade has more than one meaning. You need to let go of the idea that upgrade necessarily requires a replacement process.

Besides, if I upgrade my car's stock tires to snow tires, I could either be flat out replacing them OR I could be installing chains, thus making them better. Both processes are upgrades, but only one involves replacement.

I pointed out that they could suck potatoes on that topic because the BRB uses real world examples.

Also, excellent point on that tire reference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. We do not have permission or instructions to keep any Wargear acquired by the initial model in the Unit Composition when it is transitioned to the new model profile. Of course, we don't have instructions to drop it and revert to the default equipment under the Wargear list, either.

The lack of an order of operations or any other set of instructions does hinder this.

I get the feeling you're arguing both sides just because you want to keep the fire fueled, sir (or ma'am).

Charistoph wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. We do not have permission or instructions to keep any Wargear acquired by the initial model in the Unit Composition when it is transitioned to the new model profile. Of course, we don't have instructions to drop it and revert to the default equipment under the Wargear list, either.

The lack of an order of operations or any other set of instructions does hinder this.

Here is what it comes down to.

If at the start of the game, you have not broken any rules in your list then everything you have taken is legal.

However if you try to have a Terminator model with a jet pack, well there is a rule against that and that is not legal.

The rules say that a scout can take a Sniper rifle. The rules also say that you can upgrade a scout to a WGPL.

Then there is no rule saying a WGPL can not have a sniper rifle. So if he already has one when you upgrade then you do not have an illegal choice.

Zarius wrote:I get the feeling you're arguing both sides just because you want to keep the fire fueled, sir (or ma'am).

Sir, actually.

But, no, people are arguing things that do not exist as actual rules. I am just reminding people of that. Not my fault that people do not keep that in mind.

DeathReaper wrote:The rules say that a scout can take a Sniper rifle. The rules also say that you can upgrade a scout to a WGPL.

Then there is no rule saying a WGPL can not have a sniper rifle. So if he already has one when you upgrade then you do not have an illegal choice.

Two problems:
1) No order of operations means there is no way you can prove he acquired the sniper rifle before the upgrade. Saying that he did is only a house rule.

2) Can you demonstrate that the Wargear is not reset to the WGPL's default when the upgrade occurs?

Doesn't this topic come down to a few simple things?

A) There is no order of operations specified, so there is none.
B) You have to build a legal list. Every component of that list has to be legal.
C) If a Scout may take a Sniper Rifle, and a Sarge may not, that's pretty clear.
D) If you turn a Scout into a Sarge, you may not have a Sniper Rifle - since there is no permission for the Sarge to have said Sniper Rifle.

Example:
You're allowed to build an Iron Fist CAD.
You're allowed to build an Ultramarine CAD.
You're perfectly fine to take Tigurius in a UM CAD.

But you can't build an Ultramarine CAD, add Tigurius and then change the Chapter Tactics to Iron Fists.
You'll have to remove Tigurius from that list.

If you build an Ultramarine CAD, added a regular Librarian and then changed the Chapter Tactics to Iron Fists, your list would still be legal though.

nekooni wrote:
Doesn't this topic come down to a few simple things?

A) There is no order of operations specified, so there is none.
B) You have to build a legal list. Every component of that list has to be legal.
C) If a Scout may take a Sniper Rifle, and a Sarge may not, that's pretty clear.
D) If you turn a Scout into a Sarge, you may not have a Sniper Rifle - since there is no permission for the Sarge to have said Sniper Rifle.

Example:
You're allowed to build an Iron Fist CAD.
You're allowed to build an Ultramarine CAD.
You're perfectly fine to take Tigurius in a UM CAD.

But you can't build an Ultramarine CAD, add Tigurius and then change the Chapter Tactics to Iron Fists.
You'll have to remove Tigurius from that list.

If you build an Ultramarine CAD, added a regular Librarian and then changed the Chapter Tactics to Iron Fists, your list would still be legal though.

All of this is perfectly valid, but I'll direct you to something that breaks your entire argument at point A. Look up, in the SM manual, the Space Marine Biker. Look at the gear list. Then look at what is required for a space marine biker to take a special weapon. Then notate that the pistol neither counts as a CCW nor, based on context, a boltgun (it falls under the boltgun category, but the other swap section make it evident that when the Special Weapons area says boltgun, they actually mean the specific gun, not the general category).

SO, the SM Biker has no CCW, and no boltgun. The ONLY way for a SM biker to take a special weapon (per the options allowance) is to trade his bolt pistol for a chain sword, which then GIVES him a melee weapon. Now, while the swap from bolt pistol to chainsword is free, it DOES establish a required order of operations, period.

Otherwise, with no order of ops, a WGPL taking a meltabomb fails, because both the upgrade to WGPL and the meltabomb occur at the exact same time. Until he completes the upgrade to WPGL, he's still a Scout, and Scouts DON'T have the option to take meltabombs. Order of ops. Either there IS one, which is why you take a meltabomb AFTER a WGPL upgrade, or your scouts have to be able to take one, which isn't true.

Charistoph wrote:
Two problems:
1) No order of operations means there is no way you can prove he acquired the sniper rifle before the upgrade. Saying that he did is only a house rule.

Yes there is, ask the guy that built the list.

2) Can you demonstrate that the Wargear is not reset to the WGPL's default when the upgrade occurs?

Do not have to, because nothing says that he loses his gear when the upgrade occurs.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Two problems:
1) No order of operations means there is no way you can prove he acquired the sniper rifle before the upgrade. Saying that he did is only a house rule.

Yes there is, ask the guy that built the list.

Ah yes, and where is that in the rules?

THAT is the problem.

 DeathReaper wrote:

2) Can you demonstrate that the Wargear is not reset to the WGPL's default when the upgrade occurs?

Do not have to, because nothing says that he loses his gear when the upgrade occurs.

It coincides with the earlier point. But again, nothing says he keeps it, either.

Zarius wrote:
All of this is perfectly valid, but I'll direct you to something that breaks your entire argument at point A. Look up, in the SM manual, the Space Marine Biker. Look at the gear list. Then look at what is required for a space marine biker to take a special weapon. Then notate that the pistol neither counts as a CCW nor, based on context, a boltgun (it falls under the boltgun category, but the other swap section make it evident that when the Special Weapons area says boltgun, they actually mean the specific gun, not the general category).

SO, the SM Biker has no CCW, and no boltgun. The ONLY way for a SM biker to take a special weapon (per the options allowance) is to trade his bolt pistol for a chain sword, which then GIVES him a melee weapon. Now, while the swap from bolt pistol to chainsword is free, it DOES establish a required order of operations, period.

Otherwise, with no order of ops, a WGPL taking a meltabomb fails, because both the upgrade to WGPL and the meltabomb occur at the exact same time. Until he completes the upgrade to WPGL, he's still a Scout, and Scouts DON'T have the option to take meltabombs. Order of ops. Either there IS one, which is why you take a meltabomb AFTER a WGPL upgrade, or your scouts have to be able to take one, which isn't true.

Or there is no order of operations and all you have to do is build a legal list. It's kinda like how Ordnance works - you can't cheat your way around the Ordnance side-effects by shooting all other weapons first, but you're not required to shoot the Ordnance first either. How you shoot your weapons still has to be legal after all is said and done.

The Biker is allowed to swap the weapons, and he is allowed to swap them again, too. The end result works as the Biker is allowed to own a meltagun - he had the option to do so right from the start.
A Veteran is allowed to swap himself to become an Apothecary but an Apothecary doesn't have permission to buy a Power Weapon. The end result doesn't work, since he doesn't have permission to actually own a Power Weapon

Otherwise, how exactly are you going to stop me from bringing Tigurius in a Smurf-gone-IF CAD?

nekooni wrote:

Zarius wrote:
All of this is perfectly valid, but I'll direct you to something that breaks your entire argument at point A. Look up, in the SM manual, the Space Marine Biker. Look at the gear list. Then look at what is required for a space marine biker to take a special weapon. Then notate that the pistol neither counts as a CCW nor, based on context, a boltgun (it falls under the boltgun category, but the other swap section make it evident that when the Special Weapons area says boltgun, they actually mean the specific gun, not the general category).

SO, the SM Biker has no CCW, and no boltgun. The ONLY way for a SM biker to take a special weapon (per the options allowance) is to trade his bolt pistol for a chain sword, which then GIVES him a melee weapon. Now, while the swap from bolt pistol to chainsword is free, it DOES establish a required order of operations, period.

Otherwise, with no order of ops, a WGPL taking a meltabomb fails, because both the upgrade to WGPL and the meltabomb occur at the exact same time. Until he completes the upgrade to WPGL, he's still a Scout, and Scouts DON'T have the option to take meltabombs. Order of ops. Either there IS one, which is why you take a meltabomb AFTER a WGPL upgrade, or your scouts have to be able to take one, which isn't true.

Or there is no order of operations and all you have to do is build a legal list. It's kinda like how Ordnance works - you can't cheat your way around the Ordnance side-effects by shooting all other weapons first, but you're not required to shoot the Ordnance first either. How you shoot your weapons still has to be legal after all is said and done.

The Biker is allowed to swap the weapons, and he is allowed to swap them again, too. The end result works as the Biker is allowed to own a meltagun - he had the option to do so right from the start.
A Veteran is allowed to swap himself to become an Apothecary but an Apothecary doesn't have permission to buy a Power Weapon. The end result doesn't work, since he doesn't have permission to actually own a Power Weapon

Otherwise, how exactly are you going to stop me from bringing Tigurius in a Smurf-gone-IF CAD?

The biker did NOT have the option to take the meltagun from the start, because the gear that he had to swap out for it. It wasn't a possibility, because the gear was lacking. And you just described, by saying "The Biker is allowed to swap the weapons, and he is allowed to swap them again, too" an order of operations... or the procedure for achieving a specific goal. To swap out for the meltagun, the SM biker has to first swap his pistol for a chainsword. He has to do one and THEN the other. An ORDER of OPERATIONS, similar to doing multiplication and division before addition and subtraction.

And I don't know, is there a SPECIFIC rule that states that Tigurius can't be in an Iron Fist rules set army, smurfs or otherwise?

Zarius wrote:
And I don't know, is there a SPECIFIC rule that states that Tigurius can't be in an Iron Fist rules set army, smurfs or otherwise?

Army? No. Detachments? Yes. All part of the Chapter Tactics Rules. Chapter Tactics are assigned by detachment, and only one per detachment may be selected.

Tigurius comes with only Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines), not just Chapter Tactics like the Librarian, so only may be included in detachments operating under the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

2) Can you demonstrate that the Wargear is not reset to the WGPL's default when the upgrade occurs?

Do not have to, because nothing says that he loses his gear when the upgrade occurs.

It coincides with the earlier point. But again, nothing says he keeps it, either.

And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Clearly you aren't understanding. FIRST of all, that is NOT the definition of the word. Secondly, even USING that as the definition, there is no inherent requirement to REPLACE The model to "get something better." You can replace just the armor, and you have something better than what you had, and the MODEL hasn't been replaced. Your idiotic adherence to a definition that ISN'T actually the definition is actually pretty annoying.

Zarius wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
And this being a permissive ruleset, if it is allowed and nothing restricts it, you do not take it away...

Well, here's the thing, we haven't established that it actually IS allowed, and that is part of the problem.

Yes we have. you can upgrade a scout to have a sniper rifle, then you can upgrade that same scout to be a WGPL.

Now show where the Sniper rifle is lost when the upgrade to WGPL happens.

Bottom line: it is allowed and nothing restricts it.

But upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had" so you replace the scout model with the WPGL model when you upgrade the unit.

Clearly you aren't understanding. FIRST of all, that is NOT the definition of the word. Secondly, even USING that as the definition, there is no inherent requirement to REPLACE The model to "get something better." You can replace just the armor, and you have something better than what you had, and the MODEL hasn't been replaced. Your idiotic adherence to a definition that ISN'T actually the definition is actually pretty annoying.

First, it is the definition of the word.

Second, the WGPL is a different model than the scout model.

Third, we are upgrading the unit per the rules.

No, it's not the definition, by ANY dictionary. Second, WHAT bloody rule says to replace it?

Merriam-Webster: upgrade = an occurrence in which one thing is replaced by something better, newer, more valuable, etc."

The WGPL is physically a different model in the game than a Wolf Scout.

No sniper rifle for WGPL. Permissive rule set. He does not have permission to have one. List not legal at end. Upgrading is replacing so he is no longer a wolf scout (ie: does not have the option for a sniper rifle).