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Plus orders must be done at the start of the shooting phase. I'm sure you know that but many newer players often don't, which is fair because GW seems to change how orders are done every edition since they came out
Just to clarify, orders must be issued at the start of the Shooting Phase. The only orders that must be carried out at the start of the shooting phase are Move! Move! Move! and Fix Bayonets!, which, as part of the order, are done immediately upon the unit receiving the order. The other orders are all performed when the unit is activated during the Shooting Phase, rather than at the start of the phase.
What is the opinion on Basilisks currently? A couple pages back someone said they had two in their list and they sucked. Is this a universal opinion on them or a one off?
Mud Turkey 13 wrote: What is the opinion on Basilisks currently? A couple pages back someone said they had two in their list and they sucked. Is this a universal opinion on them or a one off?
I feel like it was probably me talking about Basilisks sucking, but I'll go into a bit more detail for you. My Basilisks consistently get 5-6 shots with their main cannon, but even with playing them as Cadian (when I made them way back in the day, I put Cadia transfers on them, and I'm not gonna change that now that there's actual regimental doctrines, so here we are), I'm still only really looking at getting 3 hits. Of those, I only ever manage to get 1-2 of them to wound (despite wounding nearly everything on 3+ at the worst). Compare that to a Manticore where I'm usually able to get 7+ shots (gotta save that CP reroll in case I roll real low), more hits, and wounding a greater number of targets on 2+ thanks to the Strength 10 of the Manticore. The additional AP from the Basilisk really does not make up for the fewer shots or lower strength, as so many of our best targets these days have a 5+ (or better) invulnerable save anyway. Not to mention, with the change in 9th edition of making the game a maximum of 5 turns, the limited ammunition on the Manticore isn't nearly as big of a drawback as it has been in the past.
Long story short, Manticore > Basilisk, at least for now. I feel lucky to do 1d3 damage with a Basilisk on any given turn, and for 125 points, it's just not worth it. Spend the extra 20 points for the Manticore, and then give it Full Payload. I imagine if playing Catachan, the different between the two if even larger in favor of the Manticore.
Ok thanks guys I reckon I have a good handle on how the army works now and what it's capable of, so no more rules questions from me for a while now, promise
I will say that having looked over everything available, a basic Inquisitor seems like an auto-include, for the options they bring at low cost in points.
Basilisks wothout support are lackluster in this edition.. Whuke firing twice last edition at the time made them iutperform manties.
Support? You ask?. 1. 2 cp in the early turns gives them full firing rerolls to hit on one basi with aerial spotters strat. A nearby reroll 1 source or being cadian is another.
W. Help wounding. 9s is close but not 10s like a manti has.. So consider either a strat with wound rolls in it.. Or the relic of lost cadia .. Or the use of a friendly tempest prime who (for a cp) can guide the basi with old grudge rerolls. It brings you up to parity with a good ma ti to wound t5 elites. Finally, remember to value the extra ap. When someo e digs their termies in like ticks a manti gets the hit in at 3+ save... But a basi at 4+. Remember there is also likely a stormshields +1 to save in play.. So the effect on dug in terminators by a single basilisk is twice the chance to stick as a manti shot . witht he built in reroll for shotcount and the reroll to hit and the other biffs (of. Course reduci g cover effects is key. But some cover gives a -1 to hit. In that case 8 average manty shots that reroll 1 only gives you about 3 hits. Manti does as well with its reroll strat.. When you factor in the extra ap. Better.
So i believe it situational and part of integrated artillery .... But still good at its price.
Plus orders must be done at the start of the shooting phase. I'm sure you know that but many newer players often don't, which is fair because GW seems to change how orders are done every edition since they came out
Just to clarify, orders must be issued at the start of the Shooting Phase. The only orders that must be carried out at the start of the shooting phase are Move! Move! Move! and Fix Bayonets!, which, as part of the order, are done immediately upon the unit receiving the order. The other orders are all performed when the unit is activated during the Shooting Phase, rather than at the start of the phase.
Yeah sorry should have been more clear, but seems like you got what I meant. Basically you can't really rely on moving past enemy units in the shooting phase since MMM must be given at the start of the shooting phase, which means you won't have time to clear whatever you're trying to get past.
As for basilisks, GW really needs to rework how they function. The old basilisk was an unholy terror to enemy hordes, squads of marines, and could even threaten enemy tanks with a lucky hit. As it is it maybe kills 3 orks in a full strength mob and you'd be lucky to do 4 damage to an enemy tank. It's one of the biggest cannons in the guard arsenal and honestly it's just an indirect firing lascannon that does d3 damage. I'm not sure how you fix it without being an absolutely insanely powerful weapon, maybe give it a split statline for HE/AP or something. Out of our entire codex it took the loss of templates the hardest and honestly they're not even remotely worth it anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/07 21:36:29
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
I view basiliskas a uniquely suites third piece especially for cadians. Manties withoutrerolls can end up only 7 to 5 or so basi.. And basi have that full reroll strat to start a chain of interlocki g field of fire. Key to cadias artillery.
In cadian hands the full reroll strat of a basilisk is also highly useful to guide in interlocki g fire off two full payload manties. While this burns cp... It fives a large bump on accuracy to two critical assets without any of the three needin g los to the foe. As exqmple picture a fight with a bunch of hive gaurd that are+1 sace on cover .. Blocked los .. And get a minus 1 to hit rhem from a nearby wierdo nid character. Without the basilisks ability to guide in the mamties score about 3 hits... And maybe 1 failed save. With guidance they shoot vack to 4+ and la d a few more. Its the difference betweenn losing the artillery dueland winning. As an example.
Or you just drizzle shots into enemy armor and make your points back slowly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/07 23:28:17
Simply put Basilik's needed the Double Shot to be competitive.
Way back in Epic they all had double shot due to superior reload times lore wise.
Wouldn't mind a price hike and innate double shot.
Double shoot would make them stricty superior to Manticores though. It would mean that you could either shoot 2 d6 on the same target (Mantis) or decide to split 2d6 between two different targets (double-shot Baslisks).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/08 11:54:55
I think basilisks could have a basilisk only strategem called "chose the payload" where you can, for a cp, swap the style of ammo in them.
"overblast" -1 damage (min 1) but also causes any save roll to have to be rolled twice, take the worst of the two.
"direct AP" +3 damage but -1 to hit.
scatterbombs 2D flat, no penalty to hit or ap or save.
grape. LOS shooting only, but any natural six does 3 his.
or regular (cause you may have multiple basis in your lineup, after all.)
Now consider you could drop your direct AP shots on someone's big ugly with your reroll strat .. or oyu could slap scatterbombs into a round that's going to hit a bunch of marines that aren't standing right by a 6+++ feel no pain source, and have only 2 wounds and a 6+ save to help them.
Sure, you wouldn't want to end up with the wrong ammo type in your basilisks when you suddenly realize that the enemy is charging your position from cover with vangaurd vets. You wouldn't want to be shooting at -1 to hit against ravengaurd's distant guys in cover. You could, however, get a LOT of interesitng and flexible use out of the lowly basilisk, while the manticore continues to be just "I shoots the missles I came with again." and all.
What are your thoughts on the Malcador Infernus? I've been thinking about running three in a Catachan detachment, each with dual heavy flamers. I'm just trying to figure out if the strength 7 makes them too inflexible as the main hammer of the army. I'd probably run them alongside 2 tank ace manticores, but by then that's 1200 or so points of my army (the rest would be mainly infantry and a few sentinels).
The auto-hitting really appeals to me, as it means I don't need to worry about degrading too much. I think the explosion is hilarious, even if it backfires on me more often than not, and it feels to me like it suits the Catachan fluff to a tee.
Drawbacks are cost (which seems ok to me), and the jack of all trades master of none nature of the main gun (struggling against T8 opponents).
I've run one in my Krieg list (shoot on death is amazing with them) and I love it. One problem I could foresee with three is ... they are hugggge models. If they explode (and they do on a 4+) then it's tricky to avoid catching a lot of your other stuff. With three it would be impossible I suspect. I often put mine in reserve, and that's not really feasible with three either. I'm early days though, would love to hear your experience with them if you pull the trigger...
No DKOK specific orders or strats in the Imperial Armour Compendium, unfortunately. Trait seems situationally useful to me on ranged vehicles, though there will be games when you roll 1-3 on those critical rolls after units die, and that will be incredibly annoying.
Dukeofstuff passed on a couple of handy suggestions to me about the wound rolls:
-Old grudges warlord trait
-Vengeance for Cadia (against Chaos)
I guess the question is whether a warlord trait and ONE tank ace is better or not than TWO tank aces. This would really be down to match ups and list composition, I guess.
Does anyone have any speculation they want to share about what we could see in a new codex (just spit-balling/wish-listing)?
-changes to tank aces?
-improvements to super heavies?
-return of the battle cannon relic (wishful thinking, I know)?. And of course, it's still usable outside of tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 08:14:07
(Introduce a "1 per infantry squad tax" to avoid people taking pure conscripts or pure vets list)
Make it so that Commanders and Tank Commanders can't order themselves (this would weaken us, but it would make normal LR usable again. Pretty sure it's bound to happen anyways by tying orders to "core")
- Change grenade launchers, autocannons, Exterminators and Vanquishers so that they don't totally suck
- Change Valhallans special rules so that they aren't the worst regiment by a long margin. ESPECIALLY change the fact that several factions (Orks, CSM, Daemons) can summon new full-strength units beyond their reinforcement points limit during the game, but Valhallans can't.
- Make 3-4 special strats for the "big 8" regiments (Cadia, Catachan, Tallarn, Mordian, Armageddon, Vostroyan, Valhallan, Krieg)
I guess the question is whether a warlord trait and ONE tank ace is better or not than TWO tank aces. This would really be down to match ups and list composition, I guess.
Honestly, slapping "Full Payload" on Manticores or "Weapon Expert" on a Punisher Commander is so much better than any Warlord trait that I've stopped bothering with traits a while ago.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/10 08:41:29
Does anyone have any speculation they want to share about what we could see in a new codex (just spit-balling/wish-listing)?
- this might be a wild guess, but I would not be surprised if the Multilaser goes to 10/15 Points (EDIT: like the Autocannon, Heavy Bolter and Heavy Flamer) and moves to heavy 5 or 6 for that. It's the only standard heavy weapon left at 5 Points and as GW seems to be pretty focussed on unifying points cost, it would make kind of sense. Also at heavy 6 it would be a real alternative to the heavy bolter in Chimeras again (at least that's my personal opinion).
- As they changed the Macharius Vanquisher to S16 D9 I expect something is also done with the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Maybe S14, D6 or Dd3+4?
- More wishlisting than really expecting this: would be nice if the LR Exterminator and Eradicator would get something to make them situational more worthwile. The Exterminator is now the second most expensive configuration without much to show for it. Maybe let it ignore hard to hit from airplanes as it is listed as stop gap air defense.
- Also more wishlisting then expectation: some kind of platoon mechanic would be interesting. So something like stuffing 1 platoon commander, Command Squad, 30-60 Infantry dudes out of any combination of Infantry Squads, Veterans and Conscripts) into one troop slot. I have no idea if that would be broken, it just sounds interesting to be able to stuff a whole infantry horde list into a single Brigade.
- I'm pretty hopeful they will reconsider some of the regimental doctrines, specifically Mordian, since boni to overwatch a bit lackluster when you have to pay CP to do overwatch at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 11:17:58
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
I expect Mordian's doctrine would involve overwatching for free - I believe they said that would be a thing for some abilities at the start of the edition.
A buff to the Vanquisher would be excellent, bu GW seems to still have a really poor understanding of what makes a good anti-tank weapon in their games, if the Gladiator is anything to go by. But, you never know.
kirotheavenger wrote: I expect Mordian's doctrine would involve overwatching for free - I believe they said that would be a thing for some abilities at the start of the edition.
A buff to the Vanquisher would be excellent, but GW seems to still have a really poor understanding of what makes a good anti-tank weapon in their games, if the Gladiator is anything to go by. But, you never know.
I feel a solution for Mordian would be to change their unique order to allow the ordered unit to overwatch without spending a CP
I feel the issue with vehicles like the Vanquisher is the problem with how quantity trumps quality right now. I've been thinking the a way to fix this would be to give vehicles a way to ignore AP of low strength weapons. Armored Keyword-treat attacks with a S of <5 as AP 0. You could then tailor the level ignored based on the vehicle (Armored Sentinel is <4 where a Leman russ <5, etc...) Then make Vanquishers/Railgun weapons get to reroll wound and max Damage vs units with that key word. This would not invalidate the low strength high ROF weapons in general, but help make tanks less vulnerable to them while making dedicated Anti-tank weapons have a more viable roll
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/10 15:13:52
"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"
Could do, or you could increase the strength and damage a lot.
S14 would allow it to wound T7 on 2+, plus give it 3+d6 damage or something so when it lands it consistently leaves the target hurting.
The problem is partly how blasts work (or rather don't work). Why take a Vanquisher when a Battle Tank gets d6 shots at similar strength, ap, and damage?
Why take it over a Basilisk or Manticore with Full Payload?
'Blasts' aren't really materially worse against single targets than 'regular' shots. Because they're just lots of shots now.
Could be funny (but I highly doupt it) if "armored" vehicles got damage reduction against blasts reflecting that a lot of the blast effect gets wasted compared with a solid shot. Something like damage reduction -1 against blast if the vehicle has an "armored" keyword.
=> the Vanquisher might suddenly be better than the Battlecannon against armored vehicles, as the latter would drop from 2 average damage per shot to 1.33.
=> the Exterminator would have a kind of niche again as being worse than the battlecanon against almost all targets but slightly better against armored ones.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Any ideas what to pack against Death Guard now that Plasma Guns and Heavy Bolters have become useless against them (Nevermind Autocannons who just got extra useless)? My first instinct would be Punishers, Hot-Shot Volley Guns with the +1S strat and Heavy Flamers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 15:57:32
Esmer wrote: Any ideas what to pack against Death Guard now that Plasma Guns and Heavy Bolters have become useless against them (Nevermind Autocannons who just got extra useless)? My first instinct would be Punishers, Hot-Shot Volley Guns with the +1S strat and Heavy Flamers.
Rapier Laser Destroyers and Hades Breaching Drills
Esmer wrote: Any ideas what to pack against Death Guard now that Plasma Guns and Heavy Bolters have become useless against them (Nevermind Autocannons who just got extra useless)? My first instinct would be Punishers, Hot-Shot Volley Guns with the +1S strat and Heavy Flamers.
I've havn't been keeping super up to date with new stuff (work is super busy at the hospital with Covid), what do Death Guard have/do that is causing the problem?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 18:23:08
"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties"
Esmer wrote: Any ideas what to pack against Death Guard now that Plasma Guns and Heavy Bolters have become useless against them (Nevermind Autocannons who just got extra useless)? My first instinct would be Punishers, Hot-Shot Volley Guns with the +1S strat and Heavy Flamers.
I've havn't been keeping super up to date with new stuff (work is super busy at the hospital with Covid), what do Death Guard have/do that is causing the problem?
Basically all D2 weapons become D1 weapons against them
ArikTaranis wrote: No DKOK specific orders or strats in the Imperial Armour Compendium, unfortunately. Trait seems situationally useful to me on ranged vehicles, though there will be games when you roll 1-3 on those critical rolls after units die, and that will be incredibly annoying.
Dukeofstuff passed on a couple of handy suggestions to me about the wound rolls:
-Old grudges warlord trait
-Vengeance for Cadia (against Chaos)
I guess the question is whether a warlord trait and ONE tank ace is better or not than TWO tank aces. This would really be down to match ups and list composition, I guess.
Does anyone have any speculation they want to share about what we could see in a new codex (just spit-balling/wish-listing)?
-changes to tank aces?
-improvements to super heavies?
-return of the battle cannon relic (wishful thinking, I know)?. And of course, it's still usable outside of tournaments.
Realistically, what I would go ahead and start preparing for now
*Orders moved to command phase. Makes sense, gets rid of the weirdness that was doing them at the start of the shooting phase, etc. Downsides are obvious, you'll need to commit to orders even earlier, and I would expect our favorite Move Move Move to be radically changed.
*Commanders no longer count as core, and orders only affect [core] infantry or vehicles. I would expect vets, ccs, SWS, hws, etc to be core, and our non core stuff will be auxiliary stuff like ogryn, pyskers, etc.
*Commanders possibly getting some sort of limit per detachment, but might not happen. Tank commanders are no longer the terrors they used to be and you don't really hear about them anymore.
*We lose all the fun stuff in the greater good. Maybe some fun stuff will be rolled in, but after the way blood angels got treated I worry.
*Smoke launchers become a strategem, which means the strike and shroud tank order will need to change
*Conscripts stay 5ppm. If grots can't be cheaper than 5ppm, there's not a snow balls chance in hell we'll get 4 pt conscripts
*Vets will lose shotguns and autoguns
*Mordians getting a new trait of some sort, considering theirs literally does not function at the moment. They're easily the worst regiment at the moment, even Valhallans tank profile and morale effects have at least a little effect. Perhaps they get worded like Tau and always get to overwatch on a 5+, would give them a neat niche.
*Im hoping Valhallans get an actual strategem to use, since we're the only army I know of that has a "recycle the unit" strat that needs CP and points to use.
*And while I'm wishlisting for things that will never happen, guard sarges will be able to take lasguns again for the first time in 10 years
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 19:49:06
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
We can either overblast the DG with weaponry that does more than 2 each hit (meltas or multimeltas at short range, rapier lasguns, baneblade main guns (many of them), or any full payload basi or manti, OR
we can sneak under the damage effect with 1D stuff that harms marines.
That's scions, heavy flamers, and multiple rocket pods, the gatling taurox guns of the lambdan taurox spam, and the tank ace turret punisher gatlings of any gaurd regiment.
Or, we get them in melee, and hope that we can drown them in catachan infantry.
Lots of it.
Regarding the DG, GW have hinted that it'll be dangerous to be up close and personal with them because of the forthcoming contagions of nurgle rules.
I dunno, at least the humble lasgun is actually better now against DG. Primaris psykers will help us deal those now unsaveable mortal wounds to them, which will be handy as long as they're not screened by poxwalkers. I'd expect the DG infantry to become quite expensive with the new additional wounds.
Bullgryn will be worse due to the flat 2 damage of their mauls, as will powerfists etc
Deepstrike denial with scout sentinels and Rein/Raus could be really important to slow them down, as could protecting from outflankers with cheap units along the flanks.
Shadowswords will be greatly improved against the new disgustingly resilient rule, not that many people are necessarily taking those. They'll be handy vs mortarion and plagueburst crawlers.
Edit: Armageddon Medusas (especially with Catachan) are now pretty nasty with their d6 damage in the new imperial armour compendium. Its basically like having stronger but shorter range lascannons that can fire with no LoS needed.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 01:21:02
So, personal complaint, I tried to buy that compendium of forces book with all them thar forgeworld IG stuff in it so I could see the statline for the medusa today, and foudn out that GW stores don't carry it because "that's not our company, we only carry GW stuff."
My options are apparently to wait 55 years for it to be snailmailed out, because while its "not my company" the guy then quickly described how rough it is mailing things with everyone working overtime and doing extra shifts and still months and months behind.
Basically, the same guy then told me he was no cash in the store because his bank also refuses to allow him in the lobby, so he can't deposit or get change. (I would TEND to credit this if it were not also my own bank, 5 blocks away, adn I know they been open for about 5 months now despite covid.)
So I left feeling ill used, and no closer to knowing how a medusa works.
Seriously, GW is its own enemy sometimes.
So my idea of the day is to compare the effects of an artillery park as a whole -- 2 manticores with full payload seems to be de rigeur these days, but its not a full park. So I add in a basilisk cause I have one painted and then thought to myself that its a good synergy for cadians, who are naturally better at artillery than catachans or any of the extra die for shot count people. I know a lot of folk imagine catachan artillery to be better, but they are doing so in a vaccum, and fighting rarely happens in a vaccum. People slide into cover and behind it, and suddenly the many ineffective shots of catachans don't do so well. (I have done the math on this, and it boils down to cadians can spend CP to make their shooting more accurate, and more wounding, while catachans have very limited strategems to employ. So if you are going to do MORE than 2 manticores, the cadians quickly overpower the less accurate catachans and get something called an economy of scale in using CP to interlock fields of fire (or in using the relic to gain a lot of reroll power). Which leads me to posit that IF medusa are any good, that might be a decent and cost effective fourth gun in to round out the shooting.
A "shorter ranged, stronger non LOS lascannon" sounds nice if it can also be fired at 3+BS and reroll its 1's, of course.
Anyway, I plan on using this half of the army as the main grinder force troops stuff -- the way I always run cadians )(cause I am stubborn, have you ever met a gaurd player who wasn't?) with their grenades and missle launchers, orders passed out, and backed by the arty park. Then give a smaller force of scions to pinch hit as the alphastrikes.
What you folk think? Its not bullygrn and its not crusaders, but it seems / feels like it would still stand a chance if the artillery really is concentrated enough to bring down enemy troopkill pressure and to relieve the midboard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/12 03:57:59
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
