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Cobleskill

Karol wrote:
Great. There is one slight problem with this. All the marine units that are build around bolters, who have no special weapons. Marines that don't get plasma or get a limited number of vehicles accesible to them. On top of that, if basic weapons can't be powerful for troop options, then why are ad mecha, tau or eldar ones just that?


You really wonder why T'au troops have superior guns?
Because that's all that they have. Get into CC with them and they... fold. Most T'au players in CC just offer to take their models off the board when engaged in melee.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
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Really? Okey then GK only have storm bolters, the heavy weapons that GW gave them are so bad, it is a downgrade you pay points for , if you take them. Where aren't the blessed ammo SB GK have the same kind of a blessed ammo SB SoB have?

Plus Tau squad weapons are much better then the bolter, and on top of that they exist in an army that has crissis suits, broad sides etc And shoting , specially out of LoS shoting beats out melee every time, so we can't even say that power armoured armies are balanced vs tau by virtue of having better melee. Because there is no melee, if a tau kills or cripples your units before you reach it.

How about Ad mecha guns?

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Karol wrote:
Great. There is one slight problem with this. All the marine units that are build around bolters, who have no special weapons. Marines that don't get plasma or get a limited number of vehicles accesible to them. On top of that, if basic weapons can't be powerful for troop options, then why are ad mecha, tau or eldar ones just that?


But that's the point - the Eldar and Admech weapons need to be rolled back, rather than just endlessly buffing other weapons to their level.


Karol wrote:
Really? Okey then GK only have storm bolters, the heavy weapons that GW gave them are so bad, it is a downgrade you pay points for , if you take them.


This seems a little hyperbolical.

The Incinerator is a Heavy Flamer with S6. Hardly a bad weapon, especially when most infantry can only get a regular flamer at best.

The Psilencer is a Heavy version of the storm bolter with +2 shots and AP-1. Nothing amazing but hardly terrible. Though it does seem like one of those weapons that lost something during the transition from 7th.

Lastly, the Psycannon is a Heavy Bolter with +2S (or an Autocannon with an extra shot, depending on how you want to look at it). Seems fine, in all honestly.


The only issues I'm really seeing is that they get -1 to hit if they move (but then so do a lot of infantry, it's kinda the point of Heavy weapons) and that AP-1 is far less effective after the new balance patch. However, the latter is what happens when Marine players complain that their units aren't tough enough - they get tougher at the expense of, among other things, their own weapons.

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Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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Cobleskill

Karol wrote:
Really? Okey then GK only have storm bolters, the heavy weapons that GW gave them are so bad, it is a downgrade you pay points for , if you take them. Where aren't the blessed ammo SB GK have the same kind of a blessed ammo SB SoB have?

Plus Tau squad weapons are much better then the bolter, and on top of that they exist in an army that has crissis suits, broad sides etc And shoting , specially out of LoS shoting beats out melee every time, so we can't even say that power armoured armies are balanced vs tau by virtue of having better melee. Because there is no melee, if a tau kills or cripples your units before you reach it.

How about Ad mecha guns?


Out of LOS shooting is better then melee?
HAVE YOU READ THE F** **G BALANCE DATASLATE???

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/24 14:58:59


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Racerguy180 wrote:
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Karol wrote:
Great. There is one slight problem with this. All the marine units that are build around bolters, who have no special weapons. Marines that don't get plasma or get a limited number of vehicles accesible to them. On top of that, if basic weapons can't be powerful for troop options, then why are ad mecha, tau or eldar ones just that?


I want you to list for me the marine units built around bolters that can only take regular bolters and nothing else.
   
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Marines in 7th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP3 weapons that for some reason just seem to be everywhere! (Waves to Hellchickens, Rokkitz and Plasma spam)

GW: Don't worry, introducing 2 WOUND Marines!

Marines in 8th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, we don't get any benefit from cover, we hate this!

GW: Don't worry, introducing new cover rules which adds +1 armor and which screws over low armor factions but which benefits Marines basically above all others!

Marines in 9th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP- (1-3) weapons which for some reason seem to be everywhere...almost like people are building lists based around playing against T4 3+ since its without a doubt the most common defensive profile in the entire game.....

GW: Don't worry, Introducing ARMOR OF CONTEMPT!

Marines in 9th: Our bolt guns aren't doing enough dmg to other Marines and other factions since they all got buffed thanks to the power curve of the game going up dramatically thanks to the largest factions in the game receiving huge durability boosts.

GW: Don't worry, Introducing (Insert new GW item when it arrives).





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 carldooley wrote:
Karol wrote:
Great. There is one slight problem with this. All the marine units that are build around bolters, who have no special weapons. Marines that don't get plasma or get a limited number of vehicles accesible to them. On top of that, if basic weapons can't be powerful for troop options, then why are ad mecha, tau or eldar ones just that?


You really wonder why T'au troops have superior guns?
Because that's all that they have. Get into CC with them and they... fold. Most T'au players in CC just offer to take their models off the board when engaged in melee.


I just had this happen very recently at a tournament, once the Tau player runs out of CP to use his guns in CC, especially the strat that turns his rifle into a Pistol 2 weapon which gives him 3 shots in CC....once that part is over they just say "yep, you win".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/24 15:27:22


 Tomsug wrote:
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@Semper Mortis 2 wound marines came after +1 Sv from cover.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
@Semper Mortis 2 wound marines came after +1 Sv from cover.


LOL! I couldn't care less its just a joke to poke fun at how Marines seem to always complain that there army isn't tough enough on the table, and then seem to forget that everytime they get a buff the game adjusts to build around there new durability. There was a reason Ork players in 4th-7th built in as many Rokkitz as they possibly could, big shootas had higher overall dmg against a significantly larger # of units, but we always took Rokkitz. Why? Because they were S8 and AP3 which meant Marines didn't get a save and a lucky shot could 1 shot a Marine character unless he had eternal warrior rule that let him shrug off instant death.

There is a reason the top lists featured more las/melta/plasma than it did Auto-cannons, its because Lascannons, melta and Plasma were all AP1-3 and defeated all Marine armor, the Autocannon was cheaper and better against again, significantly more targets but when you get into the competitive games, you were more than likely going to run into at least 1 Power Armor army in a 3 game tournament, and in a 5 game it had to be at least 2 if not more.

This new call for more dangerous bolters will just result in the power creep going up. Give bolters AP-1, how long before Orkz get 6+ Invulns across the board and Meganobz get their own version of Armor of Contempt? How long before Necrons get increased armor saves or a flat out 4+ Invuln? We already have entire armies made up of invuln saves, Harlequins, Daemons and to a lesser extent Custodes. I mean hell, we just recently had guns brought into the game which completely ignore Invuln saves

If anything, the power creep needs to go down not up. I really do wonder where all those players went, who complained about Horde armies being slow to play against. Go play against the top armies right now which have re-rolls for days against everything. Last GT I went to my opponent ran out of time top of turn 3 because he had used so many re-rolls and special rules which interrupted game play.

One of my biggest complaints about pre 8th was the level of rules layered on top of rules, GW got rid of that for about 10 seconds and here we are right back at it.

 Tomsug wrote:
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Not Online!!! wrote:
As a CSM and Ork player i am just going to say it:

stop it with suggestions to increase Bolters (and all types of marines) power for that matter, the game adapts to them permanently due to the (C)SM baseline population being the most common and played factions by miles, every change to them WILL have consequences for other factions and actively further facilitates the armsrace / powercreep that right now and since late 5th made this game often horrific to play with certain factions.

Its the same issue as to why now suddendly every stupid baseline infantry weapon has some form of AP, including Marines, especially other marines, because GW couldn't let good enough be good (and needed to sell you your army again this time with more specialists and no options) and HAD to throw out marines 2.0 sorry, primaris, and look where that got us.
And when primaris didn't cut it anymore, well, throw out marine 2.0 and their doctrines and supplements out and the reaction to that was more powercreep and more and more and more.

IF you really want to "Fix" the bloody boltgun then its time to scale far back, drop 2w marines of anykind, drop AP-1 boltrifles (indeed just throw out all the primaris boltweapons period) and by extentsion do the same for all the other factions. It would've been good enough for marines with the new AP system, because it would've disolved the AP3 or better or bust syndrome that pre8th 40k had.

and as an aside, giving ork shootas assault back is not a buff, it's what it always has been and should've been.
Hear hear! Preach, brother!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Marines in 7th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP3 weapons that for some reason just seem to be everywhere! (Waves to Hellchickens, Rokkitz and Plasma spam)

GW: Don't worry, introducing 2 WOUND Marines!

Marines in 8th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, we don't get any benefit from cover, we hate this!

GW: Don't worry, introducing new cover rules which adds +1 armor and which screws over low armor factions but which benefits Marines basically above all others!

Marines in 9th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP- (1-3) weapons which for some reason seem to be everywhere...almost like people are building lists based around playing against T4 3+ since its without a doubt the most common defensive profile in the entire game.....

GW: Don't worry, Introducing ARMOR OF CONTEMPT!

Marines in 9th: Our bolt guns aren't doing enough dmg to other Marines and other factions since they all got buffed thanks to the power curve of the game going up dramatically thanks to the largest factions in the game receiving huge durability boosts.

GW: Don't worry, Introducing (Insert new GW item when it arrives).

Preach as well, Brother!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/24 15:46:42


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When it comes to Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines, I like where bolters are at. In fact, I generally like the offensive power those factions' armies generate. Almost all my 9th games have been with my CSM or Primaris vs. some sort of Codex: Space Marine army.

What I have found is these codices have to leverage both their shooting and melee to achieve sufficient offensive power. The trick being at what ratio and where to apply it when actually playing the game. Exactly where I want it: on the table and not in the list. It's about the only tough decisions marines have to make, being otherwise pretty simple to play.

Maybe because I often don't play opponents with highly optimized lists, but I also feel marines today handle their jack-of-all-trades offensive ability better than they have in the past. For as much as it gets said marines have the best of all the other factions now, I find many factions' specialists still can very much out shoot or out melee my marines. And 40k still favors the specialist.

But I think that gap is narrowed some. I believe if I can get my marines to, "shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones" I can do pretty well. The biggest issue being marines not having the mobility or durability to make that happen. With Armor of Contempt, I think it may be possible. Which is where I want marines: good shooting, good melee, average mobility, excellent durability and poor board control (read: few models).

As for marine vs. marine games with Armor of Contempt, I suspect that tabling an opponent is going to be very difficult compared to expected in 9th. I also think this increases the importance of OpSec as taking objectives won't be as easy as nuking your opponent's force off an objective. So having the superior OpSec is needed. Everything I feel 40k should be doing.

What I haven't seen is AP-2 Troops being a problem as a concept. Intercessor Stalker Bolt Rifles have had AP-2 since 2017. Even AP-3 Turn 1 doesn't make them especially good beyond controlling kill zones. I have a far bigger issue with Bolter Discipline than I do regular Doctrines (super doctrines may have been a bridge too far). Even now, I'd rather Bolter Discipline be dropped or changed to turn RF weapons into Assault (the Black Legion trait). It feels incredibly wrong having stationary marines to me.

All-in-all, I think regular (not GK, TS, DG, etc.) are generally in a good place if for nothing else but to be the usual benchmark. I don't know all the other 9th ed codex factions as well, but looking into Orks and Necrons; they do feel like they are still missing something. I figure future tournaments will reveal which codices are still tuned a little too well. And overall, I still feel 40k is too lethal. So stronger Bolters is something I want. I'd personally rather play a weak codex until the game's offensive power is toned down.
   
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 cole1114 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
That's it. I'm sick of all this "bolter with AP-1" bs that's going on in 40k right now. Gauss flayers deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine gauss flayer on a tomb world for 100 energy (that's about 1,21 gigawatts) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even pierce ferrocrete bunkers with my gauss flayer.

Necron Crypteks spend years working on a single gauss flayer and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest firearms known to the galaxy.

Gauss flayers are thrice as long as Space Marine bolters and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a bolter can penetrate, a gauss flayer can penetrate better. I'm pretty sure a gauss flayer could easily bisect a knight-class titan with a simple volley.

Ever wonder why Tyranids never bother conquering Tomb Worlds? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Necron Warriors and their gauss flayers of destruction. Even in the devastation of Baal, Tyranid Warriors targeted the Necron Warriors with the gauss flayers first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Gauss flayers are simply the best firearm that the galaxy has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the 40k system. Here is the stat block I propose for gauss flayers:

RF1 24" S4 AP-2 D1 An unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.


I like that you go through all the reasons it should be strong, and then suggest something that still isn't that strong lmao. Maybe instead of automatically wounds, just does a flat 1 MW and ends the process there.

He's referencing a copy pasta about this weeb that didn't like the stats of the katana in D&D.

With that said, Gauss is definitely done dirty. Immortals at least have a deadlier gun.
   
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Cobleskill

How far are we from infantry guns that just deal MWs?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/24 18:42:02


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'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in gb
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The dark behind the eyes.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
With that said, Gauss is definitely done dirty. Immortals at least have a deadlier gun.


In fairness, Gauss was never especially deadly.

Gauss Flayers have always been Bolters+0.0001.
Gauss Blasters used to be S5 AP4. This was a decent profile but far from spectacular. The extra strength over the flayer was nice for weight of fire, but AP4 was pretty niche - 90% of the time it was indistinguishable from AP5.
Gauss Cannons were Heavy 3 S6 AP4. As with Immortals, they could try and kill infantry through weight of fire (but, as above, AP4 rarely mattered over AP5). They could also possibly get very vehicles, but against anything tougher than a Rhino it was a significant waste. I believe these were improved in 7th but they spent most of the game being pretty mediocre.
The Heavy Gauss Cannon was a Lascannon with worse range.

Of course, all of them had the Gauss rule - which meant that any wound roll of 6 would always wound the target, and any armour-penetration roll of 6 would glance the target. However, for much of the game glancing hits didn't really do a whole lot. It was only in 6th/7th, when hull points were introduced, that Gauss weapons suddenly became deadly. Though, even in this case, it was really only the Flayers and (to a lesser extent) Blasters that benefitted - the other weapons usually had high enough strength to glance vehicles on 6s regardless.
   
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vict0988 wrote:That's it. I'm sick of all this "bolter with AP-1" bs that's going on in 40k right now. Gauss flayers deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I know this is a joke, but Gauss weapons deserve something special too. Like never needing more than a 4+/5+ to wound, etc.

Not Online!!! wrote:stop it with suggestions to increase Bolters (and all types of marines) power for that matter, the game adapts to them permanently due to the (C)SM baseline population being the most common and played factions by miles, every change to them WILL have consequences for other factions and actively further facilitates the armsrace / powercreep that right now and since late 5th made this game often horrific to play with certain factions.

Its the same issue as to why now suddendly every stupid baseline infantry weapon has some form of AP, including Marines, especially other marines, because GW couldn't let good enough be good (and needed to sell you your army again this time with more specialists and no options) and HAD to throw out marines 2.0 sorry, primaris, and look where that got us.
And when primaris didn't cut it anymore, well, throw out marine 2.0 and their doctrines and supplements out and the reaction to that was more powercreep and more and more and more.

IF you really want to "Fix" the bloody boltgun then its time to scale far back, drop 2w marines of anykind, drop AP-1 boltrifles (indeed just throw out all the primaris boltweapons period) and by extentsion do the same for all the other factions. It would've been good enough for marines with the new AP system, because it would've disolved the AP3 or better or bust syndrome that pre8th 40k had.

and as an aside, giving ork shootas assault back is not a buff, it's what it always has been and should've been.

I get what you're saying, but disagree.

First of all, basic Marine boltguns don't have AP without doctrines. Secondly, the changes you're suggesting would move the opposite direction to representing Marines lore-accurately on the tabletop... which is a core driver for many people who want to see that. Make them more powerful, rebalance costs. Let the game adapt (like it has to for any major change). At least they've corrected model proportions, even if the in-universe/in-game implementation is a little forced.

I agree though that all the different super-speshul bolt variants should be consolidated.

And as an aside, I really don't get why people are so angry about that bloody shoota profile. "Oh you improved it, you're the worst..."

Quasistellar wrote:Bolters are fine. We don't need the basic infantry weapon on the most common faction in the game to do that much heavy lifting.

Just because that's one way to do things, doesn't mean it's the only way. Why would the alternative be so bad? Is it really so horrifying that a "basic infantry weapon" (aka, one of the Imperium's most powerful small arms) might do some heavy lifting?

SemperMortis wrote:
Marines in 7th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP3 weapons that for some reason just seem to be everywhere! (Waves to Hellchickens, Rokkitz and Plasma spam)

GW: Don't worry, introducing 2 WOUND Marines!

Marines in 8th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, we don't get any benefit from cover, we hate this!

GW: Don't worry, introducing new cover rules which adds +1 armor and which screws over low armor factions but which benefits Marines basically above all others!

Marines in 9th: Our Marines aren't tough enough, they just die to everyones AP- (1-3) weapons which for some reason seem to be everywhere...almost like people are building lists based around playing against T4 3+ since its without a doubt the most common defensive profile in the entire game.....

GW: Don't worry, Introducing ARMOR OF CONTEMPT!

Marines in 9th: Our bolt guns aren't doing enough dmg to other Marines and other factions since they all got buffed thanks to the power curve of the game going up dramatically thanks to the largest factions in the game receiving huge durability boosts.

GW: Don't worry, Introducing (Insert new GW item when it arrives).

Yep, the only motive anybody could possibly have for saying something you disagree with is that they're butthurt about losing/not playing on ultra-easy mode.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:All-in-all, I think regular (not GK, TS, DG, etc.) are generally in a good place if for nothing else but to be the usual benchmark. I don't know all the other 9th ed codex factions as well, but looking into Orks and Necrons; they do feel like they are still missing something. I figure future tournaments will reveal which codices are still tuned a little too well. And overall, I still feel 40k is too lethal. So stronger Bolters is something I want. I'd personally rather play a weak codex until the game's offensive power is toned down.

Agree with most of what you said, but I do feel there's room for Marines to get a little more powerful and characterful. And there are ways for them to 'specialise without specialising'; e.g. Damage 2 bolt weapons making them better vs MEQ and monsters, improved durability making them better at holding points (even if, like you said, they shouldn't have great coverage of the board... and with more expensive models, they should have less). I can think of other things as well that I'm sure would be pretty badly received here.



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The issue is that a MEQ is the baseline model.

They might be, in lore, so rare as to be never seen by your average imperial soldier, but in the real world, they're the most common army.

If other armies got similar support, that might not be the case, but right now, building with GEQ in mind, for instance, instead of MEQ is a recipe for losing most games.

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On the subject of building for GeQ, I do like how, because me and my friends are trying WHFB 6th, we don't really have the issue of needing to tailor our armies for meta, high armor picks, so everything feels right. Of course the Chosen Chaos Knights feel durable, they're 2+ saves and the overwhelming majority of the weapons on the field have very little to no AP. My Stromvermin might not be insanely durable, but having a shield in case I need to survive a charge is super useful. If everyone focused their lists towards fighting Chaos Warriors, my Stormvermin would feel paper thin, but my hordes would still rule. If everyone focused on killing hordes, my hordes would fall fast, but my Stormvermin wouldn't break so easily, and Chaos Warriors would be extremely durable.

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 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
On the subject of building for GeQ, I do like how, because me and my friends are trying WHFB 6th, we don't really have the issue of needing to tailor our armies for meta, high armor picks, so everything feels right. Of course the Chosen Chaos Knights feel durable, they're 2+ saves and the overwhelming majority of the weapons on the field have very little to no AP. My Stromvermin might not be insanely durable, but having a shield in case I need to survive a charge is super useful. If everyone focused their lists towards fighting Chaos Warriors, my Stormvermin would feel paper thin, but my hordes would still rule. If everyone focused on killing hordes, my hordes would fall fast, but my Stormvermin wouldn't break so easily, and Chaos Warriors would be extremely durable.
Fantasy was and is, to my knowledge, a hell of a lot better at spreading the love between various Codecs.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue is that a MEQ is the baseline model.

They might be, in lore, so rare as to be never seen by your average imperial soldier, but in the real world, they're the most common army.

If other armies got similar support, that might not be the case, but right now, building with GEQ in mind, for instance, instead of MEQ is a recipe for losing most games.


I mean the problem there is that it shouldn't be. You shouldn't have to lean into countering a faction to stand a chance to win in an ideal world.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 JNAProductions wrote:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
On the subject of building for GeQ, I do like how, because me and my friends are trying WHFB 6th, we don't really have the issue of needing to tailor our armies for meta, high armor picks, so everything feels right. Of course the Chosen Chaos Knights feel durable, they're 2+ saves and the overwhelming majority of the weapons on the field have very little to no AP. My Stromvermin might not be insanely durable, but having a shield in case I need to survive a charge is super useful. If everyone focused their lists towards fighting Chaos Warriors, my Stormvermin would feel paper thin, but my hordes would still rule. If everyone focused on killing hordes, my hordes would fall fast, but my Stormvermin wouldn't break so easily, and Chaos Warriors would be extremely durable.
Fantasy was and is, to my knowledge, a hell of a lot better at spreading the love between various Codecs.

Not quite, poor Bretonnia never got out of 6th ed.
But yeah, WHFB didn't quite have the same level of favoritism that 40k has. The Empire might have been the focus, but they didn't receive a captain every month.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/24 21:12:52


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Longtime Dakkanaut




Sorry but disagree. WHFB was largely about S5, S6 hammer units, which got Ap -2, -3 as part of the deal. Which had the same "counters everything" as described here.

Really thats sort of the issue. You could give bolters Ap-1. They would most likely remain inefficient and not be taken. Like Guardians and Fire Warriors today. Skitarii wouldn't be attractive without the stupid AoR bonuses.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
The issue is that a MEQ is the baseline model.

They might be, in lore, so rare as to be never seen by your average imperial soldier, but in the real world, they're the most common army.

If other armies got similar support, that might not be the case, but right now, building with GEQ in mind, for instance, instead of MEQ is a recipe for losing most games.


I mean the problem there is that it shouldn't be. You shouldn't have to lean into countering a faction to stand a chance to win in an ideal world.


They don't have to, but when you walk into a tournament knowing damn well you are likely to play 2-3 Marine lists and the T4 3+ save profile makes up even more of the game, you are likely going to lean into your own army's ability to play against that type of list.

Again, Rokkitz were/are terrible vs Guard, Eldar...basically all infantry in the game except Marines, and yet throughout 4th-7th they were the go to weapon upgrade for Orkz because it had the best chance of killing a Marine. The old guard lists that featured nothing but heavy weapons squads etc armed with lascannons and missile launchers were for the exact same reason, it killed Marines the best. I can keep going on but that is the point, you build your list/army towards your most likely opponents, especially in competitive games. When I built my Alphork strike list I judged units on how quickly and efficiently they could kill the T4 3+ profile not on how they did against Nidz, Harlies or Dark Eldar.

So yeah, you might not like it, but that is how the game has worked for decades and until MORE of the player base shifts to other armies, you aren't going to get around it.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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I won't say that Fantasy was super balanced, or that it avoided these issues. My point was, because we are playing without a dominant faction that consumes 50% of all battles fought, we can't tailor against anything besides just being ready to fight T3 with the basic armors, with the occasional big guy.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
On the subject of building for GeQ, I do like how, because me and my friends are trying WHFB 6th, we don't really have the issue of needing to tailor our armies for meta, high armor picks, so everything feels right. Of course the Chosen Chaos Knights feel durable, they're 2+ saves and the overwhelming majority of the weapons on the field have very little to no AP. My Stromvermin might not be insanely durable, but having a shield in case I need to survive a charge is super useful. If everyone focused their lists towards fighting Chaos Warriors, my Stormvermin would feel paper thin, but my hordes would still rule. If everyone focused on killing hordes, my hordes would fall fast, but my Stormvermin wouldn't break so easily, and Chaos Warriors would be extremely durable.


If you don't mind me asking, why 6th edition?

(I ask because 8th was the only edition of WHFB I ever played, so I've little knowledge of how prior editions differed.)

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
On the subject of building for GeQ, I do like how, because me and my friends are trying WHFB 6th, we don't really have the issue of needing to tailor our armies for meta, high armor picks, so everything feels right. Of course the Chosen Chaos Knights feel durable, they're 2+ saves and the overwhelming majority of the weapons on the field have very little to no AP. My Stromvermin might not be insanely durable, but having a shield in case I need to survive a charge is super useful. If everyone focused their lists towards fighting Chaos Warriors, my Stormvermin would feel paper thin, but my hordes would still rule. If everyone focused on killing hordes, my hordes would fall fast, but my Stormvermin wouldn't break so easily, and Chaos Warriors would be extremely durable.


If you don't mind me asking, why 6th edition?

(I ask because 8th was the only edition of WHFB I ever played, so I've little knowledge of how prior editions differed.)


I specifically hate rolled charges and advances, and I heard 6th was one of the better editions. It was mostly just a "I want to try WHFB, and I feel this one best fits my idea of a good time."

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 vipoid wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
With that said, Gauss is definitely done dirty. Immortals at least have a deadlier gun.


In fairness, Gauss was never especially deadly.

Gauss Flayers have always been Bolters+0.0001.
Gauss Blasters used to be S5 AP4. This was a decent profile but far from spectacular. The extra strength over the flayer was nice for weight of fire, but AP4 was pretty niche - 90% of the time it was indistinguishable from AP5.
Gauss Cannons were Heavy 3 S6 AP4. As with Immortals, they could try and kill infantry through weight of fire (but, as above, AP4 rarely mattered over AP5). They could also possibly get very vehicles, but against anything tougher than a Rhino it was a significant waste. I believe these were improved in 7th but they spent most of the game being pretty mediocre.
The Heavy Gauss Cannon was a Lascannon with worse range.

Of course, all of them had the Gauss rule - which meant that any wound roll of 6 would always wound the target, and any armour-penetration roll of 6 would glance the target. However, for much of the game glancing hits didn't really do a whole lot. It was only in 6th/7th, when hull points were introduced, that Gauss weapons suddenly became deadly. Though, even in this case, it was really only the Flayers and (to a lesser extent) Blasters that benefitted - the other weapons usually had high enough strength to glance vehicles on 6s regardless.


^I gotta disagree with the above. The Gauss Blaster when it was originally introduced, while S5 AP4, was Assault 2 in the days when if a Marine moved with a Rapid Fire Bolter, could only shoot once and not charge. It was a phenomenal weapon, making Immortals arguably one of the best infantry units in the game. On top of that, during 3rd and 4th ed (which was a long time, mind you), Vehicles could be destroyed with a glancing hit. The Gauss rule was very good in those days, making people fear large squads of Warriors because those glancing hits could really hurt.

The Destroyer Weapon was Assault 3 iirc too. Highly mobile (counted as jetbikes) and quite strong.

Gauss weapons were both nerfed over time, and generally suffer the same plight as the Shuriken Catapult. Somehow the Marine versions of things get better while Xenos either stayes the same or gets worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/24 23:54:01


 
   
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The dark behind the eyes.

 Insectum7 wrote:

^I gotta disagree with the above. The Gauss Blaster when it was originally introduced, while S5 AP4, was Assault 2 in the days when if a Marine moved with a Rapid Fire Bolter, could only shoot once and not charge. It was a phenomenal weapon, making Immortals arguably one of the best infantry units in the game. On top of that, during 3rd and 4th ed (which was a long time, mind you), Vehicles could be destroyed with a glancing hit. The Gauss rule was very good in those days, making people fear large squads of Warriors because those glancing hits could really hurt.


Eh, all I'll say is that those weapons certainly never felt strong on the tabletop when I was using them.

A glancing hit from a Warrior's Gauss Flayer might have been able to kill a vehicle but it counted for little when the Warrior squad itself had been reduced to paste by a Battle Cannon on the other side of the table.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Fantasy was and is, to my knowledge, a hell of a lot better at spreading the love between various Codecs.


Remember, though, GW tried to create fantasy SM with Sigmarines. And they've gotten an unconscionable number of releases.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

Yeah 3rd ed immortals and destroyers were great. It's true that necrons did struggle against high armour saves and monsters, but they were highly effective against vehicles and had some effective short ranged fire power.

Then 5th ed came and crapped on Necron's ability to be effective against vehicles. Even when they got their 5th ed book they still weren't as effective against vehicles as they used to be.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:

Gauss weapons were both nerfed over time, and generally suffer the same plight as the Shuriken Catapult. Somehow the Marine versions of things get better while Xenos either stayes the same or gets worse.


Yup. Xenos players' fault for playing an NPC faction, though. If they're winning and having fun, GW sees it as something that needs fixing.
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

^I gotta disagree with the above. The Gauss Blaster when it was originally introduced, while S5 AP4, was Assault 2 in the days when if a Marine moved with a Rapid Fire Bolter, could only shoot once and not charge. It was a phenomenal weapon, making Immortals arguably one of the best infantry units in the game. On top of that, during 3rd and 4th ed (which was a long time, mind you), Vehicles could be destroyed with a glancing hit. The Gauss rule was very good in those days, making people fear large squads of Warriors because those glancing hits could really hurt.


Eh, all I'll say is that those weapons certainly never felt strong on the tabletop when I was using them.

A glancing hit from a Warrior's Gauss Flayer might have been able to kill a vehicle but it counted for little when the Warrior squad itself had been reduced to paste by a Battle Cannon on the other side of the table.
^Heh, never had that happen to me as the Res Orb and Tomb Spiders helped in that regard. Or using the Monolith to zap them within 12" of the enemy formation. Oh the good ol days!

Imo Immortals felt great in 3-4. Then only issue I had was 2+ saves, which were a bear to get through, which is why I also ran 6 Heavy Destroyers. Needed the AP2 vs certain targets.
   
 
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