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The eldar codex is getting long in the tooth and there seems to be a number of proposed changes that are flying around. One of the biggest issues is the worthlessness of the guardian based units...

Guardians - T3, AV 5 and armed with a 12" range weapon makes them way overpriced. They are basically taken for their weapon platform. History - They used to be 5 man squads to qualify now at 10 they are too high priced.
Heavy weapon platforms - They are too at risk with at best a 6 model count - not counting the optional warlock.
Storms - There seems to be one build (2 flamers + destructor in a wave serpent)

Proposed changes:

1. Guardians cost 6 per model and can switch from catapult and defensive grenades to pistol, CCW and offensive grenades for free.
2. They are maxed at 15 models with a minimum of 5. (This is to avoid the HW saturation)
3. They are allowed 1 platform or 1 special weapon per 5.
4. Alternatively they can be taken as a heavy slot and then they may take 1 heavy support platform per 5 troops instead.
5. A shuriken catapult is now rapid fire 18" range. (The base benefit of a Dire Avenger is they are so in tune with their catapults that it is Assault 2 18")

The only problem with this is the potential guardian horde armies - very unfluffy. To avoid this:

1. Guardians taken as troop choices are extraneous to the FOC.
2. Guardians can be taken as long as one aspect warrior, ranger/pathfinder, or wraithguard squad is taken.
3. Any qualified guardian can be switched to a Heavy weapon support squad but this takes up a Heavy FOC slot.

All guardian based models have a BS 3. (Guardians, GJB, Warwalkers)

Now the problem with this is viewing them in a vacuum without considering other changes but I would like to start a discussion of the merits of these changes or other changes to Guardians.

>_>




This post is not distinct from any other pile of fixes. I think discussion starts with your post having discussion in it, like of context or history or competitive theory from one of the better blogs.

For example, why do you think guardians would carry assault 2 12" weapons and how do you think that aligns with Gav Thorpe's design in the third edition book? What about weapon platforms, are they more or less important to what guardians do in background? If you you were some Stelek-type guy, what would you think of walking guardians compared to other infantry?

Give guardians access to Lasblasters. I still have some 2nd models with them modeled with lasblasters. Also have some plastic lasblaster hands.

Allow 1 squad of Black Guardians if you take a seer council (free WS4 to 1 squad but must have special weps and pistols).

Make Autarchs unlock up to 3 units of guardians. Farseers unlock 1.

pelicaniforce wrote:



>_>




This post is not distinct from any other pile of fixes. I think discussion starts with your post having discussion in it, like of context or history or competitive theory from one of the better blogs.

For example, why do you think guardians would carry assault 2 12" weapons and how do you think that aligns with Gav Thorpe's design in the third edition book? What about weapon platforms, are they more or less important to what guardians do in background? If you you were some Stelek-type guy, what would you think of walking guardians compared to other infantry?

Well if we have to go back in history. 12" assault 2 was fine in the day when nothing could run and when Rapid Fire meant nothing could fire beyond 12" and move. To go back to the 3rd edition book, Dire Avengers had the same range albeit with a better armor and ballistic skilll. I also recall in 3rd edition - with the way melee worked - I used to run 20 man guardians as they could nicely "pillow" a more costly unit in close combat.
In 3rd edition the guardians could be fielded as 5 guardians with a weapon platform so the Platform was the reason to field guardians.
At the time of 3rd edition, marines cost 15 and had no grenades, orks cost 10 and I believe guard cost 8.
Walking guardians - with proper technique - SHOULD be playable. It is that fact that I am proposing the changes to be made to affect that change.

I am not Stelek but if I were I would probably say they are S$%@ and that every codex but the most cheezy overpowered codex is S$%@. (Take your choice, SW, Necron, GK)

What I would like to foster is a limited discussion of what is wrong with Eldar Guardians and what changes could and should be made to made to them without nullifying everything in the Eldar Codex requiring a redesign of everything. As a side bar, I don't want an overpowered codex but rather codex with options not a Stelek-like you must build an Eldar army
with A + B + C and maybe D but all other builds are crap and you must be a complete moron to even suggest E or F. (I hope this is "Stelek enough to give you the gist.)

Well if we have to go back in history. 12" assault 2 was fine in the day when nothing could run and when Rapid Fire meant nothing could fire beyond 12" and move. To go back to the 3rd edition book, Dire Avengers had the same range albeit with a better armor and ballistic skilll. I also recall in 3rd edition - with the way melee worked - I used to run 20 man guardians as they could nicely "pillow" a more costly unit in close combat.
In 3rd edition the guardians could be fielded as 5 guardians with a weapon platform so the Platform was the reason to field guardians.
At the time of 3rd edition, marines cost 15 and had no grenades, orks cost 10 and I believe guard cost 8.

Exactly. As usual, Marines got better in multiple ways, but Guardians stayed the same.

Seems like everyone wants a much more complicated fix for Guardians past just upping all Shuriken catapults, Avenger Catapults, and Shuriken Cannons ranges by 6" and keeping everything else about them the same. That would go a huge way to making me happy- I field an army full of troops that wield those three weapons, between Guardians, Jetbikes, and Dire Avengers.

Don't drop Guardian's cost, simply make them more effective for what they cost. It's the substandard weapon range that makes them so bad.

Shuriken Weapons rocked as a basic troop weapon in 2nd edition.

I agree with AegisGrimm on this one. Increase shuiken range by 6' and don't drop their points costs. I do like the 5-15 model count though.

A Guardian squad with 5-15 model count could totally, work, as well.

I'd say do not treat them as an assault unit. Treat them as an engineer team. Sure, they still need to be worth a damned if they haven't got a toy, but focus on the toy.

1 per squad: Webway Portal, Plasma Shield (defence line), similar
1 per (5/squad?): heavy weapon (one model), platform as a separate upgrade at +5 points for all weapons except the Shuriken Cannon (see Jet Pack below)
1 per 3: Power Weapon, Flamer, Fusion Gun, Long Rifle.
Grenades: Plasma (free), Haywire (upgrade), Defensive (upgrade)
Transport: Serpent, Falcon, Jet Pack, Jump Pack, Blue Suede Shoes.

An alternative for improving the Shuriken Catapult (by a lot) is to bump up their BS and/or armour. Keep in mind, though, that bumping BS means they become more similar to Dark Eldar and that the BS on all vehicles goes up.
I'm fairly certain that a small range increase and an armour increase will do it for the Guardians - provided they get toys. In fact, proper access to toys will make any improvements to Guardian standard gear moot, but that means you should want to take them for the toys.

DAaddict wrote:

3. They are allowed 1 platform or 1 special weapon per 5.

Too many HW weapons. Most troops only get heavy weapons at 10. DE for instance, get 1 special at 5 men and 1 HW per 10 men. I dont see why eldar should get crazy amounts of platforms.


C:SM 1 HW at 10 men
CSM 1 HW at 10 men
IG 1 HW at 10 men

 Exergy wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

3. They are allowed 1 platform or 1 special weapon per 5.

Too many HW weapons. Most troops only get heavy weapons at 10. DE for instance, get 1 special at 5 men and 1 HW per 10 men. I dont see why eldar should get crazy amounts of platforms.


C:SM 1 HW at 10 men
CSM 1 HW at 10 men
IG 1 HW at 10 men

I know and this is a bother... perhaps like Noise Marines... 1 platform at minimum and 2 platforms at 10 or more.

My real concern at allowing 3 was for the heavy weapon batteries. Perhaps allowing 1 per 5 for a Heavy slot guardian only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:
Give guardians access to Lasblasters. I still have some 2nd models with them modeled with lasblasters. Also have some plastic lasblaster hands.

Allow 1 squad of Black Guardians if you take a seer council (free WS4 to 1 squad but must have special weps and pistols).

Make Autarchs unlock up to 3 units of guardians. Farseers unlock 1.

A S3 Assault 2 24" lasblaster would be fine by me. This is more a question of modeling. If you are going to remodel guardians to allow for say all the options... Catapult Arm, Lasblaster Arm, Shuriken Pistol and CCW Arm as well as 2 Fusion Guns and 2 Flamers... Sounds like 10 model 38 dollar box and then you have to buy 15 dollar platform models...

I feel like a fluff tweak will be needed to get Guardians to properly fit in 6th ed. The question is how to tweak them. Are they a form of home guard or conscript pressed into service only in the direst of situations or maybe they could also be Eldar starting their journey down a specific warrior path. First it is determined if they have a better aptitude for ranged warfare or do they have a natural blood lust that makes them assault oriented. The first become Guardian Defenders while the more aggressive eldar become Storm Guardians.

From there, the Guardian Defenders go on to be further classified and assigned as infantry troops, Scouts, artillery/heavy weapon crew or vehicle pilot./gunners. They then, in the course of following their "path" are eventually allowed to join the aspect that best fits their path.
Guardian Defender Troops will eventually become Dire Avengers or Rangers
Artillery/heavy weapon crew go on to become Dark Reapers
Vehicle pilots/gunners eventually become Fighter/Bomber Pilots

Storm Guardians go on to be further classified as Infantry troops, Corsair(Jump infantry) or Jetbike pilots. Then, just as the Defenders, they eventually join the aspect that best matches their "path".
Storm Guardians go on to become Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees
Corsairs eventually become Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders
Jet-Bike Pilots go on to become Shining Spears

I know, Swooping Hawks will have to be re-written to make them more assault oriented. Also, some of the other Aspects could fit in either vatagory depending on how one views their purpose. Really this was just a quick example of how I'd like to see the way Eldar armies are formed and structured.

I like the direction you are going - that is part of the reason i made Guardians extraneous to the FOC but dependent on the eldar taking something else. They still cost points, they are still troops but they are never fielded alone (except for black guardians that could be unlocked by SC. Likewise for EJB)

I would modify your stormguardian path to:


Storm Guardian: Fire Dragon, SS, HB
Corsair: SH, WS
Jet Bike: Bigger Vehicles, Shining Spears...

Basically I am sick of Eldar taking their best and most lethal vehicles and putting a militia man at the controls... They already did it in the case of Fire Prisms. I am just saying it should be more...

Also a note on the proposed shuriken cannon to Rapid Fire 18". I don't want to expand its range to 18" Assault 2 as this will greatly change EJB and all the vehicles that mount a Catapult. Think of it 10 bikes with Twin-Link turn into 20 shots with 75% of hitting... Sure it can be done but then the costs need to be increased. Really 6th Ed Rapid Fire allows for the needs of guardians as well.

I agree with almost everything, but mainly on the fluff wise idea that guardians shouldn't be used as cannon fodder, and obviously not in large blobs.
Maybe Guardian squads with aspect's bodyguards should make some sense (say, 7 guardians with 3 Scorpions, or 2 Fire Ddragons) just for defending some critical point. At least when you're creating a militia of some kind, you almost never let the civilians do all the work, as usually some kind of military expertise is required.

Also I agree with the change to the shurikens making them rapid fire, as I consider it's the way it's fired (thousands of molecular thin shurikens) even if we have to give up 1 strength point on the weapon.

 Mahtamori wrote:

1 per squad: Webway Portal, Plasma Shield (defence line), similar
1 per (5/squad?): heavy weapon (one model), platform as a separate upgrade at +5 points for all weapons except the Shuriken Cannon (see Jet Pack below)
1 per 3: Power Weapon, Flamer, Fusion Gun, Long Rifle.
Grenades: Plasma (free), Haywire (upgrade), Defensive (upgrade)
Transport: Serpent, Falcon, Jet Pack, Jump Pack, Blue Suede Shoes.
.

What do the Blue Suede Shoes do? What do you think their points cost should be?

They allow the eldar to moonwalk across the battlefield as a free upgrade as long as you play Michael Jackson songs throughout the game.

I think guardians should be scrapped as they are and have Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions pushed as the main troops (with options for Shining Spears and Wraithguard as unlockables to represent other craftworlds).

If we want to keep guardians treat them as engineers operating and repairing artillery/vehicles. They're supposed to represent the non-warrior paths in battle, give them support roles.

Altering catapults have significant effects on certain other units, Jetbikes especially, though Wraithlords and vehicles do give a lot of leeway since the effect of the catapult on those are nearly negligible.

 Tarrasq wrote:
They allow the eldar to moonwalk across the battlefield as a free upgrade as long as you play Michael Jackson songs throughout the game.

I think guardians should be scrapped as they are and have Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions pushed as the main troops (with options for Shining Spears and Wraithguard as unlockables to represent other craftworlds).

If we want to keep guardians treat them as engineers operating and repairing artillery/vehicles. They're supposed to represent the non-warrior paths in battle, give them support roles.

Guardians have way too much potential to be scrapped. The Eldar army reliance on them as core troops needs to go, though.

I think increased catapult range it would make Jetbikes right about the power they should be for the points, actually.

I'm inclined to agree, though I do think Jetbikes should be a bit less expensive all things considered. Not a lot, but 22 points is too high and dissimilar to the other Guardians lowering their points is not unfluffy, rather the opposite.

I think that requiring an Eldar to take something else to qualify for a guardian solves the problem of never allowing an Eldar to be guardian dependent... So let's worse case this.

An Eldar takes.
Eldrad 210
2 x 5 Fire Dragons 160
6 x 5 Dire Avengers 300
So 670 points and fields 8 Guardians... 6 as extra troop choices and 2 as Heavy Slots.

So 6 x 10 Guardians with 2 x EML 660
and 2 x 15 Guardians with 3 x D-Cannons 480
1810 so 40 points to throw around...

Now to his advantage, he has 12 EMLs and 6 DCannons but he also has 90 guardians with little staying power and Ld 8.

I don't think it is broken because they still cost points and this does put a limit on him. While the Guardians may be feasilble, they are not capable of being a core choice of an army but they are a viable supplement to an army providing some heavy weapons and/or heavy support platforms to support an army.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
I feel like a fluff tweak will be needed to get Guardians to properly fit in 6th ed. The question is how to tweak them. Are they a form of home guard or conscript pressed into service only in the direst of situations or maybe they could also be Eldar starting their journey down a specific warrior path. First it is determined if they have a better aptitude for ranged warfare or do they have a natural blood lust that makes them assault oriented. The first become Guardian Defenders while the more aggressive eldar become Storm Guardians.

From there, the Guardian Defenders go on to be further classified and assigned as infantry troops, Scouts, artillery/heavy weapon crew or vehicle pilot./gunners. They then, in the course of following their "path" are eventually allowed to join the aspect that best fits their path.
Guardian Defender Troops will eventually become Dire Avengers or Rangers
Artillery/heavy weapon crew go on to become Dark Reapers
Vehicle pilots/gunners eventually become Fighter/Bomber Pilots

Storm Guardians go on to be further classified as Infantry troops, Corsair(Jump infantry) or Jetbike pilots. Then, just as the Defenders, they eventually join the aspect that best matches their "path".
Storm Guardians go on to become Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees
Corsairs eventually become Swooping Hawks or Warp Spiders
Jet-Bike Pilots go on to become Shining Spears

I know, Swooping Hawks will have to be re-written to make them more assault oriented. Also, some of the other Aspects could fit in either vatagory depending on how one views their purpose. Really this was just a quick example of how I'd like to see the way Eldar armies are formed and structured.

Given the nature of the Eldar Path and the fact that once an Eldar feels any sort of blood lust he is immediately sent to the aspect shrines to learn how to deal with/repress it or otherwise become an Exarch, I have a hard time calling the guardians a pre-aspect shrine. However I believe someone mentioned in a book that guardians are generally post-aspect Eldar who know to control their rage and have talent along a certain style of fighting. At the very least call it a post-aspect 'officer' to lead a group of guardians.

Farseer14 wrote:
Given the nature of the Eldar Path and the fact that once an Eldar feels any sort of blood lust he is immediately sent to the aspect shrines to learn how to deal with/repress it or otherwise become an Exarch, I have a hard time calling the guardians a pre-aspect shrine. However I believe someone mentioned in a book that guardians are generally post-aspect Eldar who know to control their rage and have talent along a certain style of fighting. At the very least call it a post-aspect 'officer' to lead a group of guardians.

I like the idea of having Guardians with the option to take Aspect Warriors or Exarchs as squad leaders.

However, I still feel that the Guardian base fluff will have to be re-written to make them pre-aspect just to fix how Guardians in game seem to be an antithesis to the Eldar base concept. Such a re-write could also fix the edition to edition pendulum swing of how good or crappy Guardians are in comparison to the various Aspects.

It is exceedingly unlikely, though, since the Guardian's position has been more or less established by Gav Thorpe rather recently. Mind you, it doesn't fit with their codex position, either, but still fact remains that Guardians are pitied by warriors (aspect or psycher) for the danger to their soul they need to expose themselves to and the use of them are mourned due to it being a sign of dire need for the craftworld.